New Mutants #23 - What lurks in the shadows

[sunofdarkchild]

I feel like people focusing on the argument last issue, kinda an example of missing the forest for the trees.

These last 12 issues have been about isolation, trauma, the juxaposition of revenge vs leniency. What it means to forgive but not to forget, and what makes you you.

How krakoa should move forward IS important, but to try and frame it like the end all be able... just feels like an incredibly surface level reading of this arc.

So wanting consistency is 'surface-level reading' now. If the philosophical argument between the heroes and the villain is of no importance, then why was made to be so important in the previous issue? It would have been better to not have it altogether than to abandon it without any proper exploration. If that could be removed from the story altogether without changing anything about the story then it shouldn't have been in the story to begin with.

The theme about forgiveness is itself not as well developed as it should be. Before this issue the person who was arguing for forgiving Farouk was Rahne, while she was under Farouk's mental influence and this led to Gabby being murdered. She was wrong, and Gabby, the person who said they should not trust Farouk, was right. All of a sudden now Rahne is right and Gabby has changed her mind to agree with her, and the kids have gone from trusting Farouk completely, turning on him after he murdered their friend, to defending him again.

This arc either needed to get rid of the murder of Gabby or to have the entire final act after her murder was discovered redone. Even on Krakoa, murdering a kid is not something that can or should be forgiven so easily.

[Kingdom X]

The theme about forgiveness is itself not as well developed as it should be. Before this issue the person who was arguing for forgiving Farouk was Rahne, while she was under Farouk's mental influence and this led to Gabby being murdered. She was wrong, and Gabby, the person who said they should not trust Farouk, was right. All of a sudden now Rahne is right and Gabby has changed her mind to agree with her, and the kids have gone from trusting Farouk completely, turning on him after he murdered their friend, to defending him again.

Yeah right now we find ourselves in a murky area between "it's justified to not trust people who have wronged you" but also "leave yourself open to forgiveness because people can change." Since next issue is the complete wrap up of this arc we might get some final thoughts on where Ayala wanted to go with this thematically.

[rf2044]

Overall, I enjoyed the issue. Obviously, the abstract art was pretty cool.

I'm fine with the redemption theme for Farouk, even if it isn't entirely clear whether the Shadow King was still controlling him, or whether it was just a shadow impression left behind that Farouk himself may have enabled to linger.

But what didn't make much sense was how his intent to show them the error of their benevolent philosophy and prepare them for war from the previous issue was just dropped to focus on the struggle between him and the fragment of SK. What was that all about? Why put TNM through all that?

[ZephyrSurf]

So wanting consistency is 'surface-level reading' now. If the philosophical argument between the heroes and the villain is of no importance, then why was made to be so important in the previous issue? It would have been better to not have it altogether than to abandon it without any proper exploration. If that could be removed from the story altogether without changing anything about the story then it shouldn't have been in the story to begin with.

The theme about forgiveness is itself not as well developed as it should be. Before this issue the person who was arguing for forgiving Farouk was Rahne, while she was under Farouk's mental influence and this led to Gabby being murdered. She was wrong, and Gabby, the person who said they should not trust Farouk, was right. All of a sudden now Rahne is right and Gabby has changed her mind to agree with her, and the kids have gone from trusting Farouk completely, turning on him after he murdered their friend, to defending him again.

This arc either needed to get rid of the murder of Gabby or to have the entire final act after her murder was discovered redone. Even on Krakoa, murdering a kid is not something that can or should be forgiven so easily.

Your issue is assuming I'm talking about forgiveness in purely a Farouk context... when I'm not. I'm talking about Xian's forgiveness of Tran, Gabby's forgiveness of the lost club, Rahne's forgiveness of Dani. I'm not saying forgiveness is some clean thing, and i don't think Vita is either. There's different levels, different cases and different amounts of severity.


Also I never said that the argument of how to move forward could be removed. I said that focusing purely on it is surface level reading. Not that it's not important, but that it's not EVERY THING. I don't for a second believe it's been dropped. I'm just not parsed that it didn't get resolved right here. A big issue i feel with western comics in general is they don't let **** breathe. Something like the argument of which side is RIGHT shouldn't be resolved in 48 pages over 2 months* This is an ideological difference, just because Farouk put it forward doesn't mean it should also end with him. It's okay to put an idea forth and not have it resolved until later.


*Marvel printing issues aside

[sunofdarkchild]

Your issue is assuming I'm talking about forgiveness in purely a Farouk context... when I'm not. I'm talking about Xian's forgiveness of Tran, Gabby's forgiveness of the lost club, Rahne's forgiveness of Dani. I'm not saying forgiveness is some clean thing, and i don't think Vita is either. There's different levels, different cases and different amounts of severity.


Also I never said that the argument of how to move forward could be removed. I said that focusing purely on it is surface level reading. Not that it's not important, but that it's not EVERY THING. I don't for a second believe it's been dropped. I'm just not parsed that it didn't get resolved right here. A big issue i feel with western comics in general is they don't let **** breathe. Something like the argument of which side is RIGHT shouldn't be resolved in 48 pages over 2 months* This is an ideological difference, just because Farouk put it forward doesn't mean it should also end with him. It's okay to put an idea forth and not have it resolved until later.


*Marvel printing issues aside

I'm not assuming anything. You're the one making assumptions about me and everyone else who has a problem with this. I didn't bring up the other instances of forgiveness not because I assumed you were only talking about Farouk, but because they are completely irrelevant to the problems with the way it's handled with Farouk. How well or not well Tran is handled has no bearing on the fact that Rahne's point, which got Gabby killed and was the result of external mental influence, is the point that is vindicated as correct in the end. It has no bearing on the fact that a moral event horizon was passed when Farouk murdered a child. And it has no bearing on the actual confrontation being presented as being about something completely different and switching themes halfway through the fight.

Something can be seeded in one issue and paid off much later. Something can't be made the center of the conflict in the final act and then dropped entirely halfway through the final confrontation. The thing the good guys and bad guys are arguing about isn't a minor matter. In most stories that is the main theme, and here it's a throwaway detail. If it wasn't going to carry through then it shouldn't have been brought up, because the result is that the theme changes mid-battle, and the first half of the fight was devoted to something unimportant. The argument is not going to be settled later, because beating the Shadow King, the source of the argument, wins the argument by default. The Farouk who did what he did is supposed to be a different person now.

The story would be more thematically consistent if instead of going to talk to Farouk, the New Mutants went to wreck him for what he did and only started to give him a chance when the kids came to the rescue and argued on his behalf. Instead we've got a story where the kids are telling the New Mutants to do what they just did in giving Farouk another chance, within seconds of him abusing the chance they just gave him to torture them, an entirely new and unnecessary theme is thrown in for no reason and then abandoned for no reason as well, and he's so not to blame that in the end the evil spirit is purged from him by a magic sword.

[ZephyrSurf]

I'm not assuming anything. You're the one making assumptions about me and everyone else who has a problem with this. I didn't bring up the other instances of forgiveness not because I assumed you were only talking about Farouk, but because they are completely irrelevant to the problems with the way it's handled with Farouk. How well or not well Tran is handled has no bearing on the fact that Rahne's point, which got Gabby killed and was the result of external mental influence, is the point that is vindicated as correct in the end. It has no bearing on the fact that a moral event horizon was passed when Farouk murdered a child. And it has no bearing on the actual confrontation being presented as being about something completely different and switching themes halfway through the fight.

Something can be seeded in one issue and paid off much later. Something can't be made the center of the conflict in the final act and then dropped entirely halfway through the final confrontation. The thing the good guys and bad guys are arguing about isn't a minor matter. In most stories that is the main theme, and here it's a throwaway detail. If it wasn't going to carry through then it shouldn't have been brought up, because the result is that the theme changes mid-battle, and the first half of the fight was devoted to something unimportant. The argument is not going to be settled later, because beating the Shadow King, the source of the argument, wins the argument by default. The Farouk who did what he did is supposed to be a different person now.

The story would be more thematically consistent if instead of going to talk to Farouk, the New Mutants went to wreck him for what he did and only started to give him a chance when the kids came to the rescue and argued on his behalf. Instead we've got a story where the kids are telling the New Mutants to do what they just did in giving Farouk another chance, within seconds of him abusing the chance they just gave him to torture them, an entirely new and unnecessary theme is thrown in for no reason and then abandoned for no reason as well, and he's so not to blame that in the end the evil spirit is purged from him by a magic sword.

See, I don't think the purported solution that mind control rahne put forward is equal to what happened here. Rahne under Farouk's control asked them to hear Farouk out, but that is inherently under false pretense. Just cause someone offers peace with a gun hidden behind their back doesn't necessarily mean peace isn't a viable solution. And I don't even presume that forgiveness and absolution is the end result of this conflict.

I also don't believe an ideological framing needs to end with a villain, even if said villain was the one who put it forward. The narrative can easily push with it beyond the initial introductory person or incident. Tons of stories have done it before. Farouk's ideological difference from the New Mutants is why he came into conflict with them, but that ideological difference doesn't need to be resolved with him. Him being beaten does not in turn prove him wrong, cause they didn't defeat him in a way that undoes his ideology so much as they bested his actions.

Now if they go and say it's all down to his evil spirit shadow King and Farouk is completely nonculpable, yeah sure, I'll concede. But i feel like comments like "I am the master of my own actions and consequences" suggests it's nowhere near that get out of jail free card.

[rcaguy]

See, I don't think the purported solution that mind control rahne put forward is equal to what happened here. Rahne under Farouk's control asked them to hear Farouk out, but that is inherently under false pretense. Just cause someone offers peace with a gun hidden behind their back doesn't necessarily mean peace isn't a viable solution. And I don't even presume that forgiveness and absolution is the end result of this conflict.

I also don't believe an ideological framing needs to end with a villain, even if said villain was the one who put it forward. The narrative can easily push with it beyond the initial introductory person or incident. Tons of stories have done it before. Farouk's ideological difference from the New Mutants is why he came into conflict with them, but that ideological difference doesn't need to be resolved with him. Him being beaten does not in turn prove him wrong, cause they didn't defeat him in a way that undoes his ideology so much as they bested his actions.

Now if they go and say it's all down to his evil spirit shadow King and Farouk is completely nonculpable, yeah sure, I'll concede. But i feel like comments like "I am the master of my own actions and consequences" suggests it's nowhere near that get out of jail free card.

The real problem here is that we have a bunch of wannabe authors who are basically pissed off that the story wasn't written the way *THEY* would have done it,so we're seeing a bunch of ****** trying to pretend that this isn't the case.

You see this sort of stuff all the time in reviews over on Fanfiction Net and other places concerning the various fanfics posted there.

[Havok83]

Is this sh-t finally over?

[Rift]

Is this sh-t finally over?

The Shadow King stuff wraps up in the next issue, in February. Only 3 more months to go.

[ericng]

Is this sh-t finally over?

No, this sh-t isn't over yet. The whole arc stretched from #14 to #24 with two filler issues.

Next issue we are going to have a preview on the final few pages of what to expect for the next arc which start at #25.

[Thundershot]

I’ll be honest. I started reading it, lost interest a few pages in, and skimmed to the part with Farouk vs Shadow King. I’m glad they’re separated and we can maybe get Farouk as his own character.

Hopefully with a different writer.

Art was gorgeous though. Plots are interesting. I just don’t care for the writing.

[Lady Midnight]

I’ll be honest. I started reading it, lost interest a few pages in, and skimmed to the part with Farouk vs Shadow King. I’m glad they’re separated and we can maybe get Farouk as his own character.

Hopefully with a different writer.

Art was gorgeous though. Plots are interesting. I just don’t care for the writing.

Farouk was shown in Legions new realm...

[Havok83]

The Shadow King stuff wraps up in the next issue, in February. Only 3 more months to go.

damn, you for real? I started off liking Vita on this book but this plot has dragged on for far too long

[ericng]

damn, you for real? I started off liking Vita on this book but this plot has dragged on for far too long

It doesn't help that one issue can mean 2 months wait and not monthly.

#24 comes out in Feb 9, 2022

[rcaguy]

It doesn't help that one issue can mean 2 months wait and not monthly.

#24 comes out in Feb 9, 2022

So? Vita pretty much has nothing to do with any of this. It's not like she has any real control over it.