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  1. #16

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    Soooo….. I think Marvel did end up forgetting Kraven is a Clone as well. Liked the issue, but such a cool dynamic could have been had, none of Spidey’s other main rogues are a clone, we could have had some amazing dialogue between Ben and Kraven.

  2. #17
    Wig Over The Hoodie Style IamnotJudasTraveller's Avatar
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    I'm going to mix things up a little and do my review of this 2-parter by way of "Pitch Meeting".


    (pretend it's Ben and Janine.)

    "So, you have a Kraven story for me?"
    "Yes sir I do."
    "Cool! So what you got?"
    "Well, I was thinking we could have Kraven stalk Spider-Man and try to get the core of who he is and how he might be neutered by Beyond's corporate handling."
    "Oh! Fascinating."
    "It is! So we can have Kraven complain Spidey is being capitalistic manhandled in a couple of panels."
    "Great! And where does that lead?"
    "Lead where?"
    "Well, it seems like it's setting up a major point for the story to get to."
    "Sometimes it's more about the journey than the destination."
    "Coming in with the fortune-cookie wisdom. I like it!"
    "And I was also thinking with how everybody loves Kraven's Last Hunt we could have Kraven drug Spider-Man and take him into a journey of identity and self-discovery while the effect of the drugs course through his body, rendering him unable to fight... so he has to do the impossible."
    "Doing the impossible is tight! That's going into the solitics."
    "Doing the impossible, or doing the impossible is tight?"
    "Both!"
    "Great!"
    "So how does Kraven relate to Ben?"
    "What do you mean?"
    "Well, both he and Ben are clones so since identity is a motif in this arc maybe we could go there."
    "Just because we COULD go there doesn't mean we SHOULD go there?"
    "Fair!"
    "And then after Kraven drugs Spider-Man, he takes him to a remote location where he is keeping Beyond employees hostage!"
    "Wow! It sounds like that's a huge challenge for Ben to overcome. He not only has to fight drugs and get to bottom of his own identity but he has to save people while doing it!"
    "Actually, it's going to be super easy! Barely an incovenience."
    "Oh?"
    "Yeah, it turns out one of Beyond's employees has an anti-hangover drug that will nullify the effects of Kraven's poisoning in a couple of pages."
    "But how is Ben doing the impossible if the solution to the problem is handed over to him?"
    "The way I see it, impossible is just a word that contains 'possible' in it."
    "Can't argue that!"
    "Nope!"
    "Well, I'm sure we'll have lots of fun figuring out how Kraven's hallucinations prey to Ben's misgivings about his identity and role in the world."
    "Sure will! I was thinking he should perceive the hostages as talking giant animals wearing human's clothing."
    "Getting cosmic horror over here, I like it!"
    "Actually, it's less 'cosmic abomination' kind of hallucination and more 'he'll make quips about it and go about his day' kind of hallucination."
    "Those are the best kind!"
    "They are."
    "So where does this leave Kraven?"
    "He blows himself up."
    "Oh! My god."
    "It's okay, it's comics and we just know he'll be back."
    "Can't argue that either!
    Discovering/CONFESSING! the nature of evil... one retcon at a time.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    I'm going to mix things up a little and do my review of this 2-parter by way of "Pitch Meeting".


    (pretend it's Ben and Janine.)

    "So, you have a Kraven story for me?"
    "Yes sir I do."
    "Cool! So what you got?"
    "Well, I was thinking we could have Kraven stalk Spider-Man and try to get the core of who he is and how he might be neutered by Beyond's corporate handling."
    "Oh! Fascinating."
    "It is! So we can have Kraven complain Spidey is being capitalistic manhandled in a couple of panels."
    "Great! And where does that lead?"
    "Lead where?"
    "Well, it seems like it's setting up a major point for the story to get to."
    "Sometimes it's more about the journey than the destination."
    "Coming in with the fortune-cookie wisdom. I like it!"
    "And I was also thinking with how everybody loves Kraven's Last Hunt we could have Kraven drug Spider-Man and take him into a journey of identity and self-discovery while the effect of the drugs course through his body, rendering him unable to fight... so he has to do the impossible."
    "Doing the impossible is tight! That's going into the solitics."
    "Doing the impossible, or doing the impossible is tight?"
    "Both!"
    "Great!"
    "So how does Kraven relate to Ben?"
    "What do you mean?"
    "Well, both he and Ben are clones so since identity is a motif in this arc maybe we could go there."
    "Just because we COULD go there doesn't mean we SHOULD go there?"
    "Fair!"
    "And then after Kraven drugs Spider-Man, he takes him to a remote location where he is keeping Beyond employees hostage!"
    "Wow! It sounds like that's a huge challenge for Ben to overcome. He not only has to fight drugs and get to bottom of his own identity but he has to save people while doing it!"
    "Actually, it's going to be super easy! Barely an incovenience."
    "Oh?"
    "Yeah, it turns out one of Beyond's employees has an anti-hangover drug that will nullify the effects of Kraven's poisoning in a couple of pages."
    "But how is Ben doing the impossible if the solution to the problem is handed over to him?"
    "The way I see it, impossible is just a word that contains 'possible' in it."
    "Can't argue that!"
    "Nope!"
    "Well, I'm sure we'll have lots of fun figuring out how Kraven's hallucinations prey to Ben's misgivings about his identity and role in the world."
    "Sure will! I was thinking he should perceive the hostages as talking giant animals wearing human's clothing."
    "Getting cosmic horror over here, I like it!"
    "Actually, it's less 'cosmic abomination' kind of hallucination and more 'he'll make quips about it and go about his day' kind of hallucination."
    "Those are the best kind!"
    "They are."
    "So where does this leave Kraven?"
    "He blows himself up."
    "Oh! My god."
    "It's okay, it's comics and we just know he'll be back."
    "Can't argue that either!
    I love that guy and I love this, please make this a regular thing

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Today, friends, we are blessed with TWO COMICS starring Benjamin J. Reilly. Whoever could've thunk it?!


    But again -- we get Kraven's narration and it seems as though he's somehow aware of Ben's "epiphany." Or is he just talking out of his ass? Nevertheless, when Ben is thinking about being "a rough sketch of greater men," we get the art of faceless characters again. I think there's gotta be something here regarding why Beyond wants Ben: this whole "facelessness" thing implies loss of individual identity, and so perhaps Ben is who they want because they believe they can manipulate him into losing any individual identity he has.


    -Pav, who noticed that Ock is sweating when he agrees to help Peter for May...
    Blessed indeed.

    I think the empty faces has more to do with Beyond doing something to Ben memories rather than Ben own insecurities. Or maybe amping up those insecurities.

    And as for Otto's sweat, May sure knew how to raise the temperature with that "cold trail needing some heat" talk

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sr. Bungle View Post
    I think the empty faces has more to do with Beyond doing something to Ben memories rather than Ben own insecurities. Or maybe amping up those insecurities.
    Might be Kafka, she was shown to have a memory machine in 75 backup and took interest in Ben as soon as mentioned.We know she's also a clone and going to be the upcoming Queen Goblin and that Her and Ben's past will be explored upon further in the prequel series by JMD set in clone saga era.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    I'm going to mix things up a little and do my review of this 2-parter by way of "Pitch Meeting".


    (pretend it's Ben and Janine.)

    "So, you have a Kraven story for me?"
    "Yes sir I do."
    "Cool! So what you got?"
    "Well, I was thinking we could have Kraven stalk Spider-Man and try to get the core of who he is and how he might be neutered by Beyond's corporate handling."
    "Oh! Fascinating."
    "It is! So we can have Kraven complain Spidey is being capitalistic manhandled in a couple of panels."
    "Great! And where does that lead?"
    "Lead where?"
    "Well, it seems like it's setting up a major point for the story to get to."
    "Sometimes it's more about the journey than the destination."
    "Coming in with the fortune-cookie wisdom. I like it!"
    "And I was also thinking with how everybody loves Kraven's Last Hunt we could have Kraven drug Spider-Man and take him into a journey of identity and self-discovery while the effect of the drugs course through his body, rendering him unable to fight... so he has to do the impossible."
    "Doing the impossible is tight! That's going into the solitics."
    "Doing the impossible, or doing the impossible is tight?"
    "Both!"
    "Great!"
    "So how does Kraven relate to Ben?"
    "What do you mean?"
    "Well, both he and Ben are clones so since identity is a motif in this arc maybe we could go there."
    "Just because we COULD go there doesn't mean we SHOULD go there?"
    "Fair!"
    "And then after Kraven drugs Spider-Man, he takes him to a remote location where he is keeping Beyond employees hostage!"
    "Wow! It sounds like that's a huge challenge for Ben to overcome. He not only has to fight drugs and get to bottom of his own identity but he has to save people while doing it!"
    "Actually, it's going to be super easy! Barely an incovenience."
    "Oh?"
    "Yeah, it turns out one of Beyond's employees has an anti-hangover drug that will nullify the effects of Kraven's poisoning in a couple of pages."
    "But how is Ben doing the impossible if the solution to the problem is handed over to him?"
    "The way I see it, impossible is just a word that contains 'possible' in it."
    "Can't argue that!"
    "Nope!"
    "Well, I'm sure we'll have lots of fun figuring out how Kraven's hallucinations prey to Ben's misgivings about his identity and role in the world."
    "Sure will! I was thinking he should perceive the hostages as talking giant animals wearing human's clothing."
    "Getting cosmic horror over here, I like it!"
    "Actually, it's less 'cosmic abomination' kind of hallucination and more 'he'll make quips about it and go about his day' kind of hallucination."
    "Those are the best kind!"
    "They are."
    "So where does this leave Kraven?"
    "He blows himself up."
    "Oh! My god."
    "It's okay, it's comics and we just know he'll be back."
    "Can't argue that either!
    Yeah, can’t argue… I hate letdowns in books. What gets me is the first 4-5 pages are really good and show so much promise… and then we get the dumb prisoners with the get-better pills… okay? There has to be some editorial pressure, if not outright meddling behind the scenes. I refuse to believe Ziglar would just give up a great conceit like that for another generic fight. I wanted to see Ben have flashbacks to various characters from his past like Seward could be his spirit guide, or have him fight off evil incarnations of himself like Spider-Carnage and NuJackal. The best thing I could say about this event is it’s not damaging Ben’s character (besides arguably making him too inexperienced) like Clone Conspiracy and PAD’s SS run did…. he’s a generic version of Ben, but still Ben more or less. But man, 6 issues in and I can count the story developments on one hand. You shouldn’t be spinning your wheels right out of the gate.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Might be Kafka, she was shown to have a memory machine in 75 backup and took interest in Ben as soon as mentioned.We know she's also a clone and going to be the upcoming Queen Goblin and that Her and Ben's past will be explored upon further in the prequel series by JMD set in clone saga era.
    Yeah I was thinking the same. Could be

  8. #23
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    I'm going to mix things up a little and do my review of this 2-parter by way of "Pitch Meeting".


    (pretend it's Ben and Janine.)

    "So, you have a Kraven story for me?"
    "Yes sir I do."
    "Cool! So what you got?"
    "Well, I was thinking we could have Kraven stalk Spider-Man and try to get the core of who he is and how he might be neutered by Beyond's corporate handling."
    "Oh! Fascinating."
    "It is! So we can have Kraven complain Spidey is being capitalistic manhandled in a couple of panels."
    "Great! And where does that lead?"
    "Lead where?"
    "Well, it seems like it's setting up a major point for the story to get to."
    "Sometimes it's more about the journey than the destination."
    "Coming in with the fortune-cookie wisdom. I like it!"
    "And I was also thinking with how everybody loves Kraven's Last Hunt we could have Kraven drug Spider-Man and take him into a journey of identity and self-discovery while the effect of the drugs course through his body, rendering him unable to fight... so he has to do the impossible."
    "Doing the impossible is tight! That's going into the solitics."
    "Doing the impossible, or doing the impossible is tight?"
    "Both!"
    "Great!"
    "So how does Kraven relate to Ben?"
    "What do you mean?"
    "Well, both he and Ben are clones so since identity is a motif in this arc maybe we could go there."
    "Just because we COULD go there doesn't mean we SHOULD go there?"
    "Fair!"
    "And then after Kraven drugs Spider-Man, he takes him to a remote location where he is keeping Beyond employees hostage!"
    "Wow! It sounds like that's a huge challenge for Ben to overcome. He not only has to fight drugs and get to bottom of his own identity but he has to save people while doing it!"
    "Actually, it's going to be super easy! Barely an incovenience."
    "Oh?"
    "Yeah, it turns out one of Beyond's employees has an anti-hangover drug that will nullify the effects of Kraven's poisoning in a couple of pages."
    "But how is Ben doing the impossible if the solution to the problem is handed over to him?"
    "The way I see it, impossible is just a word that contains 'possible' in it."
    "Can't argue that!"
    "Nope!"
    "Well, I'm sure we'll have lots of fun figuring out how Kraven's hallucinations prey to Ben's misgivings about his identity and role in the world."
    "Sure will! I was thinking he should perceive the hostages as talking giant animals wearing human's clothing."
    "Getting cosmic horror over here, I like it!"
    "Actually, it's less 'cosmic abomination' kind of hallucination and more 'he'll make quips about it and go about his day' kind of hallucination."
    "Those are the best kind!"
    "They are."
    "So where does this leave Kraven?"
    "He blows himself up."
    "Oh! My god."
    "It's okay, it's comics and we just know he'll be back."
    "Can't argue that either!
    I'm sorry, I just can't ignore those Peter and Gwen eyes .

  9. #24
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Oof. I hope they don't have Otto kill Janine. It'd make the direction they seem to be leaning into for Superior Four pointless. I know some folks want Otto back as a straight villain yesterday but his most popular depictions leave him *some* redeeming qualities, you know? Marvel's Spider-Man, Superior Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2. Heck, even one of the cartoons had Otto on the side of the angels recently. The lone exception in this modern trend, is Olviia Octaivus, who's not really him -- though leaving Otto positiive attributes goes all the way back to Stan Lee.
    Yeah, that cartoon you're referencing was the last one on Disney XD, also called "Marvel's Spider-Man" and overseen for the first two seasons by Dan Slott. The second season adapted the Superior Spider-Man saga, but ended with Peter and Otto both back in their proper bodies and Otto making a turn for the better because he'd experienced the world through Peter's eyes and memories, ultimately leading to Otto dying heroically; since this was still a "kids' show," he just disintegrated, leaving no body to bury.

    As for the issue itself, I'm generally with Pav. Wasn't bad, but it could have been much better than it turned out. Did like Janine not taking Beyond's crap lying down after how Ben in the last issue pretty much did the same. Marcus having a bit more sympathy and respect for Ben, seeing him as a person rather than just a means to Beyond's goals like Maxine was treating him in the last few issues, was a good touch as well. Wondering what he'll do when push comes to shove and it's a choice between keeping his job and holding to his ethics regarding Ben and Janine, because it is more and more apparent that Beyond as a whole doesn't give a damn about Ben as a person, more like a walking, talking, swinging piece of corporate product to push for its own increasingly dubious ends.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #25
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt this was wheel spinning and a whole pile of missed potential. Maybe Kraven will return, what with the parallel of their both being clones, but he was mischaracterised as the original here so it's unlikely.

    My guess is it's just a good faith move towards Sony using Morbius then Kraven. Obviously the need Ock in there in time for Spider-man: No Way Home.

    I'll admit I've found all of Beyond a little superficial and repetitive so far, not great after so few issues, bit I refuse to let it dampen my joy that Ben is back.

    Also, interesting to read that it's Miles next issue. From the costume I thought it was Kaine. Guess I need to catch up on Miles' book.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  11. #26
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    Ziglar speaking about his two-parter here, some interesting insights (past the half-mark):

    https://aiptcomics.com/2021/12/05/ai...0-cody-ziglar/

  12. #27
    Spectacular Member Obsidian Spider's Avatar
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    @iamnotjudastraveller that Pitch Meeting riff was bang on! We’ll done!

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    EDIT: you asked “why Kraven and Morbius?” … I’d bet every dollar in my account it’s tied to Sony producing movies based on those two properties. They’re trying to increase property awareness.
    Kraven gonna be used in a movie too? I thought he'd only show up in that Spider-Man 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazyspideyfan View Post
    Soooo….. I think Marvel did end up forgetting Kraven is a Clone as well. Liked the issue, but such a cool dynamic could have been had, none of Spidey’s other main rogues are a clone, we could have had some amazing dialogue between Ben and Kraven.
    Even the recap talks like he's the usual Kraven instead of a clone lol.

    He's only around se we get a proper Kraven around, while the "original" is dead to try to please KLH fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    I'm going to mix things up a little and do my review of this 2-parter by way of "Pitch Meeting".


    (pretend it's Ben and Janine.)

    "So, you have a Kraven story for me?"
    "Yes sir I do."
    "Cool! So what you got?"
    "Well, I was thinking we could have Kraven stalk Spider-Man and try to get the core of who he is and how he might be neutered by Beyond's corporate handling."
    "Oh! Fascinating."
    "It is! So we can have Kraven complain Spidey is being capitalistic manhandled in a couple of panels."
    "Great! And where does that lead?"
    "Lead where?"
    "Well, it seems like it's setting up a major point for the story to get to."
    "Sometimes it's more about the journey than the destination."
    "Coming in with the fortune-cookie wisdom. I like it!"
    "And I was also thinking with how everybody loves Kraven's Last Hunt we could have Kraven drug Spider-Man and take him into a journey of identity and self-discovery while the effect of the drugs course through his body, rendering him unable to fight... so he has to do the impossible."
    "Doing the impossible is tight! That's going into the solitics."
    "Doing the impossible, or doing the impossible is tight?"
    "Both!"
    "Great!"
    "So how does Kraven relate to Ben?"
    "What do you mean?"
    "Well, both he and Ben are clones so since identity is a motif in this arc maybe we could go there."
    "Just because we COULD go there doesn't mean we SHOULD go there?"
    "Fair!"
    "And then after Kraven drugs Spider-Man, he takes him to a remote location where he is keeping Beyond employees hostage!"
    "Wow! It sounds like that's a huge challenge for Ben to overcome. He not only has to fight drugs and get to bottom of his own identity but he has to save people while doing it!"
    "Actually, it's going to be super easy! Barely an incovenience."
    "Oh?"
    "Yeah, it turns out one of Beyond's employees has an anti-hangover drug that will nullify the effects of Kraven's poisoning in a couple of pages."
    "But how is Ben doing the impossible if the solution to the problem is handed over to him?"
    "The way I see it, impossible is just a word that contains 'possible' in it."
    "Can't argue that!"
    "Nope!"
    "Well, I'm sure we'll have lots of fun figuring out how Kraven's hallucinations prey to Ben's misgivings about his identity and role in the world."
    "Sure will! I was thinking he should perceive the hostages as talking giant animals wearing human's clothing."
    "Getting cosmic horror over here, I like it!"
    "Actually, it's less 'cosmic abomination' kind of hallucination and more 'he'll make quips about it and go about his day' kind of hallucination."
    "Those are the best kind!"
    "They are."
    "So where does this leave Kraven?"
    "He blows himself up."
    "Oh! My god."
    "It's okay, it's comics and we just know he'll be back."
    "Can't argue that either!
    While this whole conversation is a masterpiece (And I'm only slightly exaggerating, I'm smiling in amusement at a lot of lines here), I wanna point at this in particular:

    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    "But how is Ben doing the impossible if the solution to the problem is handed over to him?"
    "The way I see it, impossible is just a word that contains 'possible' in it."
    "Can't argue that!"
    That one made me laugh the hardest .

    Quote Originally Posted by Sr. Bungle View Post
    Blessed indeed.

    I think the empty faces has more to do with Beyond doing something to Ben memories rather than Ben own insecurities. Or maybe amping up those insecurities.
    Worth pointing out ASM#75, Peter himself had a dream with uncle Ben having an empty face, so maybe something is going on with both of them:



    Anyways, I agree with everyone here, this sounded like it could have an interesting idea, but was solved too quickly, too conveniently, to the point that Ben being drugged does little to the plot besides showing those empty faces, and cool visuals, but not much else.

    'Cause seriously, the pills basically do a speedrun in curing Ben.. The previous issue setup something cool, but it had to end here for the next writer's plot... This BND writing method is a pain.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post

    Worth pointing out ASM#75, Peter himself had a dream with uncle Ben having an empty face, so maybe something is going on with both of them:


    .
    Are we sure that it was Peter dreaming that?? DUNN DUNN... It could be Ben

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sr. Bungle View Post
    Are we sure that it was Peter dreaming that?? DUNN DUNN... It could be Ben
    The next page has Peter waking up, but, he doesn't mention the dream... It could be one of those annoying situations where it looks like two scenes happened one after the other but they didn't lol.

    Would be really stupid if that's the case, not much of a reason to setup Peter as the one to have the dream and then reveal it was Ben's dream all along... Well, besides a twist for the sake of a twist that is lol.

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