House of m and magneto Hickman's HOXPOX spoliers

[Lucyinthesky]

I don't buy it. Xavier met Magneto when the latter was working in a hospital in Israel, before he was supervillain and before he even knew he was a mutant... and later they fought together against Hydra... Xavier had the chance to recruit him before he was a crazy villain...

I agree and I don´t have an answer for this, just a supposition, that Charles didn´t got to tell him but I guess we should ask Hickman directly.

In the original timeline, before the retcon, Charles didn´t find out about Magneto being a mutant until their last meeting when they went their own way after defeating the Hydra cell that kidnapped Gabrielle Haller but with the Moira retcon, this is very much unclear. It would be different if Moira told Charles after he came back from the war and his meeting with Erik but it´s clear they meet on their College years.

[Wolverine12]

But at what price for characters who are still expected to be around potentialy ad infinitum, while these moments rupture the very foundation on which they have been build?

It's happened to every character. Logan is obviously a character that "crosses the line so other's don't have to." Really though we've seen almost every virtuous hero play this role. Hydra Cap, Infamous Iron Man, Superior Spider-Man, Injustice Superman. When the story is over we get the hand wave retcon ie living cosmic cube, it was really Otto not Peter, Alt Universe, take you pic.

It's difficult to seed a barren earth covered in ruins and expect anything healthy to grow from it anymore.

Using the example from the OP M day was scorched Earth status and Krakoa is in full bloom right now.

I'm willing to admit my bias that I prefer stories where the heroes aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. The only superhero that I want to stay as a pinnacle of good and righteousness is Superman, everyone else can come play in the mud with us.

[baumblume]

Krakoa has no meaning: Moira keeps finding out that everyone's doomed and that there's no future every time. Even her very mutant power has no meaning since, from Destiny's words, it's finite (10 or 11 reincarnations). Does that mean she just stops being a mutant after those lives? Heck if I know. Destiny kills her because she was "working against her own kind" during the 3rd one yet does nothing during this one where she was apparently behind some of the greatest disasters of mutant history.

[Habis]

Destiny kills her because she was "working against her own kind" during the 3rd one yet does nothing during this one where she was apparently behind some of the greatest disasters of mutant history.

Actually, that part is one of the few bits that makes sense in this mess: Destiny can't perceive Moira; she could find her during her third life because she did something big that changed the course of history... like every newspaper would tell it, and Moira's cure would be described in every encyclopedia; that's a big footprint.

Now she is in the shadows, whispering to Xavier and Magneto's ears. Destiny may realize that something is amiss, but not what it is...

[Odd Rödney]

The /worst part is that "It not being Wanda fault" is kinda canon thanks to Hickman's HOXPOX it literally means that the trio of Magneto, Moira and Xavier deliberately caused M-Day to help radicalize mutants.

Deliberately? I don't think it was 100% deliberate, I don't think that has been indicated at all.

If i recall right the common counter argument is that the three did not exactly knew what was going to happen and that M-Day might have not occurred in Moira's previous lives, so they might have not been aware of it being the outcome of the specific actions which resulted in it.

Kinda like how in The Foundation, they can only predict large scale events caused by societies, not individual people's actions.

Exactly. Therefore, not deliberate.

But if the mutants can forgive Sinister and all these other people they were working against and live off in stepford land, I guess they can forgive these guys for allowing HoM to happen to.

And then there's that. If Xavier and Magneto indeed did deliberately allow "No More Mutants" to happen is it any worse than the things done by Gorgon, Mystique, Scalphunter, Sinister etc?

Me realizing I actually would have loved that Moira X series and that it would have answered so many questions.

Same. We should've got that book. Is there any chance we still might? I'd like to think so but I really don't know.

I mean, they could have recruited all the mutants they could find together (Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Beast, Iceman, Angel, Storm, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Colossus, Thunderbird, Sunfire, Kitty Pryde, Cannonball, Sunspot, Magic, Dani Moonstar, Wolfsbane, Magma, Doug, Mastermind, Toad, Unus, Blob, Vanisher, the Morlocks..etc.), have revealed them the bleak future of Mutankind, have taken them to Krakoa and started their island nation in secret years ago instead of Magneto attacking the U.N., conquering Terra Verde, capturing all these ships whose crews he enslaved...etc., and all these nastiness that scared humans and inspired the creation of Sentinels...

Well, maybe because it's easier for a smaller crowd? When your "conspiracy" involves that many people cracks can begin to show.

Prof, Mags and Moira are hiding something...

I have no doubt about that!

Maybe or maybe not. We won´t know for sure until inferno is done. We know they have hidden the fact Nimrod, Orchis and the Sentinels create Homo novissima as well as the ban on precognitive mutants but we don´t know if they have been hiding anything else.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that they are, but yeah, we don't know for sure yet.

Honestly the entire Moira retcon breaks the cannon so much it’s not worth it trying to fix all the holes that got punched in the past decades and decades of stories with it. Honestly I think Hickman overreached too far with it, and it’s best just to apply a broad strokes approach. Maybe they let or even helped cause various events on purpose, maybe they didn’t. The general consensus should be they did decide to play god with the future of mutantkind and if it gets revealed we will see another Schism.

Maybe. Your concerns regarding "what is and is not canon now" reminds me of an old thing someone used to post around these parts, back in the day: "continuity is for the mildly autistic". I've always taken that to mean that it can be more cumbersome than it's worth to think about continuity sometimes.

Krakoa has no meaning: Moira keeps finding out that everyone's doomed and that there's no future every time. Even her very mutant power has no meaning since, from Destiny's words, it's finite (10 or 11 reincarnations).

Literally everything is finite. So is everything therefore without meaning? I think not.

[Saithor]

I’m not being mildly autistic, I’m saying it’s not worth worrying about the Moira retcon continuity issues because it is such a swerve that was never intended by any writer before that it’s never going to fit well.

As for the M-day stuff, we know the Phoenix Five happened in one universe. It’s not hard to guess that at least that universe followed typical 616 history up to that point when there’s no indications it didn’t. Also if Moira wasn’t able to predict some of these events, I’d imagine Charles and Erik would be a lot less willing to listen to her. Mind you they shouldn’t anyway since they are basing their plan on the actions of a few different timelines at best.

[Shadowcat]

no Once again tearing down WANDA AND PIETRO for magnetos's benefit.

That part.

[Odd Rödney]

I’m not being mildly autistic, I’m saying it’s not worth worrying about the Moira retcon continuity issues because it is such a swerve that was never intended by any writer before that it’s never going to fit well.

I'm autistic as f&%! myself, I certainly wasn't trying to say you are. I was just saying that it is sometimes not worth thinking about continuity. Which I think is what you're saying too.

[king of hybrids]

Something vaguely similar to the decimation saga culminating in the Phoenix 5 seemed to have happened in Life 4, but whether that was a result an M-Day event is another matter.

Eric would never have been party to the massacre of his own people even for the greater good, if Xavier knew what was coming it would explain him manipulating the Avengers to try executing her to stop it. At most only Moira knew, and made sure that Xavier and Magneto would prime and arm the ultimate Crucible of mutantdom without even knowing it

I would say though that there is certainly something suspicious that Xavier stopped recording Wanda and Pietro on Cerebro back before Wanda and Vision broke up in the 80s or why he and Moira let Eric and the twins think they were family when Moira almost certainly knew the truth.

[baumblume]

Something vaguely similar to the decimation saga culminating in the Phoenix 5 seemed to have happened in Life 4, but whether that was a result an M-Day event is another matter.

Eric would never have been party to the massacre of his own people even for the greater good, if Xavier knew what was coming it would explain him manipulating the Avengers to try executing her to stop it. At most only Moira knew, and made sure that Xavier and Magneto would prime and arm the ultimate Crucible of mutantdom without even knowing it

I would say though that there is certainly something suspicious that Xavier stopped recording Wanda and Pietro on Cerebro back before Wanda and Vision broke up in the 80s or why he and Moira let Eric and the twins think they were family when Moira almost certainly knew the truth.

Xavier stopped recording Wanda and Pietro on Cerebro because he wants eric to believe they are not children .
pietro and magneto are family Moira almost certainly knew the truth and and she manipulates magneto like a doll .
Wanda is not a mutant but pietro is a mutant.
I think that's the inferno of magneto and Xavier .

[Habis]

Well, maybe because it's easier for a smaller crowd? When your "conspiracy" involves that many people cracks can begin to show.

And what good has done their "conspiracy"? All they have done is to allow horrible things to happen to mutants while they waited the right moment to create their mutant country... they should have created it as soon as they could.

Even if they didn't have Proteus to help with the resurrections, they could still, you know, run their country without the Resurrection Protocols... the X-men have been doing without them for years...

Also, they could have avoided dressing in shiny suits, loudly proclaiming themselves the new step in human evolution and, in Magneto's case, attacking the UN, conquering Terra Verde, capturing ships and enslaving their crews...etc., and all that stuff. They could have gained years, decades, even, if they had been more discreet.

Xavier stopped recording Wanda and Pietro on Cerebro because he wants eric to believe they are not children .
pietro and magneto are family Moira almost certainly knew the truth and and she manipulates magneto like a doll .
Wanda is not a mutant but pietro is a mutant.
I think that's the inferno of magneto and Xavier .

Why do you think Pietro is a mutant, but Wanda isn't...?

[Tasuxeda]

I would point out that Legion and proteus were new to life x so the consequences of their live are not something Moira could predict so Legion creating AOA was likely unexpected thus Dark Beast experiments with the Morlocks leading to things Moira couldn't predict like the mutant massacre or Sugar Man's giving Genosha their genetic engineering leading to the mutant nation of Genosha.

Also even if they plan something it wouldn't necessarily happen the way they planned for example I suspect in hindsight that the first mission to Krakoa was a plan by Moira and Xavier to set up the groundworks for the nation of Krakoa only for it to go horribly wrong requiring them to to put Krakoa on the backburner.

[Havok83]

The /worst part is that "It not being Wanda fault" is kinda canon thanks to Hickman's HOXPOX it literally means that the trio of Magneto, Moira and Xavier deliberately caused M-Day to help radicalize mutants.

that's not stated anywhere as far as i know and it doesnt make sense that they would

[baumblume]

that's not stated anywhere as far as i know and it doesnt make sense that they would

X-Men: Inferno says they know.

Sure, Charles and Erik have some sins with all the secrets and stuff, Some of those choices are questionable, indeed, do they make evil Xavier and magneto?

Mass manipulation? Omitting information? That's pretty much standard magneto Xavier.
The TRULY DANGEROUS people are the ones who want to change the world not only for themselves... but FOR EVERYONE ELSE IN IT TOO. There are two men who eat, drink, and breathe that way of thinking - Charles and Erik: both egotistic idealists and power-mad control-freaks trying to manipulate the futures of entire populations... enabled by a petty, malicious woman named Moira who could and would end people's entire realities out of petty spite for Destiny and Pyro. These are the true villains, enemies to mutantkind, humanity, and even existence itself.

[sensormellow]

I wish this thread was locked. :/