House of m and magneto Hickman's HOXPOX spoliers

[Kingdom X]

Did HoM happen in any of Moiras other lives? It was 616 Wanda that said it and it was her wave that traverses the omniverse. It wasn't multiple Wandas whose wave converged but a single Wanda.

The only other Wanda who did it at a different incident was AoA Wanda but she could only remove the xgene from within a few feet

Me realizing I actually would have loved that Moira X series and that it would have answered so many questions.

[carmoc1234]

Me realizing I actually would have loved that Moira X series and that it would have answered so many questions.

instead we got x corp.....

[Grunty]

Me realizing I actually would have loved that Moira X series and that it would have answered so many questions.

I kind of suspect that series would have served to put everything about HOX/POX into question again, by throwing in all kinds of new informations we didn't had during the original dual mini series, raising even more questions than it answered.

Which might have been why it was postponed and seemingly canceled, since the rest of the X-office wanted the status quo to remain for their own stories.

Though just my suspicion.

Still would be nice to know which events are supposed to be main universe only and which were set in stone by Moira's memories.

[Rufio]

Me realizing I actually would have loved that Moira X series and that it would have answered so many questions.

Tbh, I don’t think it would have answered anything. I think Hickman would have just been dragging things along and making more plot threads that would have been left hanging.

He was so interested in telling a big overarching storyline that some things either look bad in hindsight or are left unfinished.

But if the mutants can forgive Sinister and all these other people they were working against and live off in stepford land, I guess they can forgive these guys for allowing HoM to happen to.

[carmoc1234]

Did HoM happen in any of Moiras other lives? It was 616 Wanda that said it and it was her wave that traverses the omniverse. It wasn't multiple Wandas whose wave converged but a single Wanda.

The only other Wanda who did it at a different incident was AoA Wanda but she could only remove the xgene from within a few feet

life 4 showed that the phoenix 5 showed up and were opposed by captain america and wolverine so that would be my bet for when it happened.
i dont think wanda affecting the multiverse is canon anymore and its just 616 that got hit, way to messy for the whole multiverse to be affected for stories going forward.

[Habis]

If i recall right the common counter argument is that the three did not exactly knew what was going to happen and that M-Day might have not occured in Moira's previous lives, so they might have not been aware of it being the outcome of the specific actions which resulted in it.

Kinda like how in The Foundation, they can only predict large scale events caused by societies, not individual people's actions.

But yes if the retcon is taken at face value everything including all the horrible things like the Mutant Massacre, Genosha, M-Day, M-Pox were all according to plan to create the groundwork for Krakoa as the "victory road" for mutantkind to "win".

All while there is the possible implication that Moira herself is what always causes events to go down the drain further and further with each of her manipulation attempts.

That's why I said you need to make some impossible mental gymnastics to understand why Magneto and Xavier behaved the way they did until now...

I mean, they could have recruited all the mutants they could find together (Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Beast, Iceman, Angel, Storm, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Colossus, Thunderbird, Sunfire, Kitty Pryde, Cannonball, Sunspot, Magic, Dani Moonstar, Wolfsbane, Magma, Doug, Mastermind, Toad, Unus, Blob, Vanisher, the Morlocks..etc.), have revealed them the bleak future of Mutankind, have taken them to Krakoa and started their island nation in secret years ago instead of Magneto attacking the U.N., conquering Terra Verde, capturing all these ships whose crews he enslaved...etc., and all these nastiness that scared humans and inspired the creation of Sentinels...

Another counter argument is they new it needed to happen and let it happen to get to Krakoa. Greater good and all that.

How can it be for the "Greater Good" to reveal the existence of mutants early, scare humans with Magneto's early activities inspiring them to create anti-mutant weapons, allow Bolivar Trask to live long enough to create the first Sentinels, allow the Morlock Massacre, the destruction of Genosha, the depowering of 99% of the remaining mutants...etc., all the while staging fake fights?

How did that help mutants at all? Why didn't Xavier and Magneto work together to create their mutant nation together from day one...?

[captain Qball]

There isn't really any evidence that they wanted or let it happen. It probably happened in a previous life or two of Moira's, but we don't know the circumstances of how. Maybe things played out differently in life 10 and they were acting differently than the ways it happened. Or perhaps they were busy with other things and didn't know when it was going to happen.

[Lucyinthesky]

That's why I said you need to make some impossible mental gymnastics to understand why Magneto and Xavier behaved the way they did until now...

I mean, they could have recruited all the mutants they could find together (Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Beast, Iceman, Angel, Storm, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Colossus, Thunderbird, Sunfire, Kitty Pryde, Cannonball, Sunspot, Magic, Dani Moonstar, Wolfsbane, Magma, Doug, Mastermind, Toad, Unus, Blob, Vanisher, the Morlocks..etc.), have revealed them the bleak future of Mutankind, have taken them to Krakoa and started their island nation in secret years ago instead of Magneto attacking the U.N., conquering Terra Verde, capturing all these ships whose crews he enslaved...etc., and all these nastiness that scared humans and inspired the creation of Sentinels...



How can it be for the "Greater Good" to reveal the existence of mutants early, scare humans with Magneto's early activities inspiring them to create anti-mutant weapons, allow Bolivar Trask to live long enough to create the first Sentinels, allow the Morlock Massacre, the destruction of Genosha, the depowering of 99% of the remaining mutants...etc., all the while staging fake fights?

How did that help mutants at all? Why didn't Xavier and Magneto work together to create their mutant nation together from day one...?

Moira and Charles made their alliance with Magneto when he was living on Islan M, around the time the All New all different X-men team was created and posterior to the silver age and the phoenix saga, this is how Hickman explained Magneto´s alliance with the X-men in the 80´s, which began on Secret Wars but this alliance was broken when Magneto found out about Moira manipulating his DNA to help him get better control of his powers, so she could use the same process with Proteus, her Son. Magneto took this as a reason to no longer trust her or Charles because he thought they were just manipulating him and broke links with them until very recently. On the Charles and Moira front, they didn´t always agree and Charles often tried to keep doing things his own way, it was only after X-men dissasembled those three characters made their alliance again to create Krakoa. Add to this Moira could not predict everything and the fact she´s been keeping secrets from them both and that explains very much how they could not work together until very recently.

I agree the retcon doesn´t work completely but it works in a general sense.

[baumblume]

Moira and Charles made their alliance with Magneto when he was living on Islan M, around the time the All New all different X-men team was created, this is how Hickman explained Magneto´s alliance with the X-men in the 80´s but this alliance was broken when Magneto found out about Moira manipulating his DNA to help him get better control of his powers, so she could use the same process with Proteus, her Son. Magneto took this as a reason to not trust her or Charles and broke links with them until very recently.

On the Charles and Moira front, they didn´t always agree and Charles often tried to keep doing things his own way, it was only after X-men dissasembled those three characters made their alliance again to create Krakoa.

he is still a part of it. . Prof, Mags and Moira are hiding something...

[Lucyinthesky]

he is still a part of it. . Prof, Mags and Moira are hiding something...

Maybe or maybe not. We won´t know for sure until inferno is done. We know they have hidden the fact Nimrod, Orchis and the Sentinels create Homo novissima as well as the ban on precognitive mutants but we don´t know if they have been hidding anything else.

[Grunty]

Maybe or maybe not. We won´t know for sure until inferno is done. We know they have hidden the fact Nimrod, Orchis and the Sentinels create Homo novissima as well as the ban on precognitive mutants but we don´t know if they have been hidding anything else.

There is also the possibility that the entire retcon is fake or at least not as true as it looked so far. False memories implanted into Xavier, Magneto and even Moira X herself.

The whole thing has a good chance of ending up being a case of "unreliable narrator" in my opinion.

So i agree that until the whole meta plot is done (of which Inferno and 20 stories of Wolverine might merely be a mid point), we can't know for sure.

[Saithor]

Honestly the entire Moira retcon breaks the cannon so much it’s not worth it trying to fix all the holes that got punched in the past decades and decades of stories with it. Honestly I think Hickman overreached too far with it, and it’s best just to apply a broad strokes approach. Maybe they let or even helped cause various events on purpose, maybe they didn’t. The general consensus should be they did decide to play god with the future of mutantkind and if it gets revealed we will see another Schism.

[Habis]

Moira and Charles made their alliance with Magneto when he was living on Islan M, around the time the All New all different X-men team was created and posterior to the silver age and the phoenix saga, this is how Hickman explained Magneto´s alliance with the X-men in the 80´s, which began on Secret Wars but this alliance was broken when Magneto found out about Moira manipulating his DNA to help him get better control of his powers, so she could use the same process with Proteus, her Son. Magneto took this as a reason to no longer trust her or Charles because he thought they were just manipulating him and broke links with them until very recently. On the Charles and Moira front, they didn´t always agree and Charles often tried to keep doing things his own way, it was only after X-men dissasembled those three characters made their alliance again to create Krakoa. Add to this Moira could not predict everything and the fact she´s been keeping secrets from them both and that explains very much how they could not work together until very recently.

I agree the retcon doesn´t work completely but it works in a general sense.

Okay... if that is so, why did Xavier take so long to contact Magneto? Moira and Xavier met very early, before Legion and Proteus were conceived... and let me remind you, Xavier met Magneto roughly at the same time he met Legion's mom... he could have recruited Magneto at that point...

[Lucyinthesky]

Okay... if that is so, why did Xavier take so long to contact Magneto? Moira and Xavier met very early, before Legion and Proteus were conceived... and let me remind you, Xavier met Magneto roughly at the same time he met Legion's mom... he could have recruited Magneto at that point...

They could have but I guess they didn´t quite trust him to try to recruit him until way later when he was more mentally estable. Moira also talked about wanting to involve Apocalypse on Krakoa but changed her idea once she saw he was not very trust worthy, I think she said he was still on his "savage phase"

So imo, Krakoa for a long time was mainly a plan between Moira and Charles until they feel like they could add Magneto and even in his case, this alliance didn´t last much until recently.

I think you could read again HoX/PoX, it has Moira´s story, her diaries where she tells her perception of Charles, Magneto and Apocalypse and it explains a lot of this questions or helps us to suppose what happened, until Inferno adds more to the story imo.

There is also the possibility that the entire retcon is fake or at least not as true as it looked so far. False memories implanted into Xavier, Magneto and even Moira X herself.

The whole thing has a good chance of ending up being a case of "unreliable narrator" in my opinion.

So i agree that until the whole meta plot is done (of which Inferno and 20 stories of Wolverine might merely be a mid point), we can't know for sure.

Agreed so far inferno seems to point to there being some unreliable narrator plot point but until it´s done we will not be sure what happened or didn´t happen.

[Habis]

They could have but I guess they didn´t quite trust him to try to recruit him until way later when he was more mentally estable. Moira also talked about wanting to involve Apocalypse on Krakoa but changed her idea once she saw he was not very trust worthy, I think she said he was still on his "savage phase"

So imo, Krakoa for a long time was mainly a plan between Moira and Charles until they feel like they could add Magneto and even in his case, this alliance didn´t last much until recently.

I don't buy it. Xavier met Magneto when the latter was working in a hospital in Israel, before he was supervillain and before he even knew he was a mutant... and later they fought together against Hydra... Xavier had the chance to recruit him before he was a crazy villain...

And anyways, Xavier and Moira could have started settling Krakoa way earlier... at some point (under Grant Morrison, from 2001 to 2005) Xavier had tens of thousands of mutant followers, maybe hundreds of thousands... He could have created a secret Krakoan colony then... Even before that, he could have taken a hundreds of thousands of mutants from Genosha and relocate then in Krakoa after the X-Men defeated the racist government and before Magneto took over...

Why did Xavier have to start his plan now, when he had so many chances to do so in the past?