Superman Complaint Thread

[Jim Kelly]

Superman's problem is that he is the goal to achieve, the dream to fulfill. A clear example of this is the Smallville series, where we see how being Superman for Clark is like being Hokage for Naruto.
It is very difficult to write a character who has basically reached his potential, the best he can be, and that is what Superman represents.

While this is an admirable perspective on the character, I don't agree with it. I don't believe that Superman is so perfect. He has a long way to go and that's clear in every iteration. When people look at him as the ideal, then it boxes him into a corner. And it's probably what drives some to create an anti-Superman version, as a way out of this idealized version.

As in Tennyson's poem, "Ulysses," the Man of Tomorrow is "strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." However, he hasn't got there yet and he may never reach his end.

If the Man of Steel knows without a doubt the Good, if he has achieved a perfect understanding of the universe--then how did that happen? It's never been shown in any comic book. Jonathan and Martha Kent had some folksy wisdom, but they were just regular people--they wouldn't have had the kind of knowledge that Clark would need to become this perfect being.

It's enough that Superman wants to do the right thing. That doesn't mean he always succeeds. He can get it wrong. What makes him a hero is that he's always seeking the right action. He doesn't allow himself to give up trying to be better and he has high expectations for himself. If the writers followed through on this more, they would have a deep and complex character.

Of course, the big lie in super-hero comics is that they seem to know so little, while knowing so much. All of the Justice League have met gods, angels, devils, aliens from other galaxies, travelled through the space-time continuum, spoken to ghosts and the undead. They have more knowledge about the nature of the universe than any of us can hope to have. And yet they still act like gormless rubes most of the time. Batman is a mere mortal yet his adventures should have had a deep philosophical impact upon him, but he goes through life as if all that experience hasn't touched him.

That's the thing that as a reader I just have to accept.

[TheRay]

Lois is only interesting so that we can get The Metropolis Kid and/or in the timelines when she becomes Superwoman.

[NaVi]

While this is an admirable perspective on the character, I don't agree with it. I don't believe that Superman is so perfect. He has a long way to go and that's clear in every iteration. When people look at him as the ideal, then it boxes him into a corner. And it's probably what drives some to create an anti-Superman version, as a way out of this idealized version.

As in Tennyson's poem, "Ulysses," the Man of Tomorrow is "strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." However, he hasn't got there yet and he may never reach his end.

If the Man of Steel knows without a doubt the Good, if he has achieved a perfect understanding of the universe--then how did that happen? It's never been shown in any comic book. Jonathan and Martha Kent had some folksy wisdom, but they were just regular people--they wouldn't have had the kind of knowledge that Clark would need to become this perfect being.

It's enough that Superman wants to do the right thing. That doesn't mean he always succeeds. He can get it wrong. What makes him a hero is that he's always seeking the right action. He doesn't allow himself to give up trying to be better and he has high expectations for himself. If the writers followed through on this more, they would have a deep and complex character.

Of course, the big lie in super-hero comics is that they seem to know so little, while knowing so much. All of the Justice League have met gods, angels, devils, aliens from other galaxies, travelled through the space-time continuum, spoken to ghosts and the undead. They have more knowledge about the nature of the universe than any of us can hope to have. And yet they still act like gormless rubes most of the time. Batman is a mere mortal yet his adventures should have had a deep philosophical impact upon him, but he goes through life as if all that experience hasn't touched him.

That's the thing that as a reader I just have to accept.

I'm not saying Superman is perfect or anything like that, but it's the way DC tries to sell him. The greatest hero, the symbol of hope, the one who always does the right thing, sells it as a goal to achieve, the same with his strength, we all know that he is not the strongest, but they sell him as if he were. the best thing would be that this Superman was the definitive form of the character, something that Superman himself tries to achieve. I think that's the reason why the best modern Superman comics are his origin, his death, alternate universes.

[Vordan]

Going to lodge my complaint here that it’s infuriating we’re likely going to never see Clark and Brainiac fight on the big screen. Thanks Snyder.

[Midnight_v]

Superman Red and Blue...

It illustrates so much of why he isn't popular, and a big part of it is because he's often, used as a propaganda piece for whoever
the artist looks at like "The powers that be". When he's supposed to be the opposite.

Its this niggling itch that's hard to scratch but so many people get to take a shot at writing him, and miss, totally; coupled with the many Alternate Evil takes on him that
just its just they've done everything to make the Magog in his original appearance seem like he was correct.

"Metropolis Milquetoast"

I can't stand to see him be "Good, Humble ... and stupid" or used as a sounding board for every piss-poor cowards commentary about social issues.

We've settled after all these year that he's a "Symbol for hope" but too many people get to drag him, and drag him away from that.
Hard to like someone that so many writers tend to actively take umbrage with.

[SuperX]

Superman Red and Blue...

It illustrates so much of why he isn't popular, and a big part of it is because he's often, used as a propaganda piece for whoever
the artist looks at like "The powers that be". When he's supposed to be the opposite.

Its this niggling itch that's hard to scratch but so many people get to take a shot at writing him, and miss, totally; coupled with the many Alternate Evil takes on him that
just its just they've done everything to make the Magog in his original appearance seem like he was correct.

"Metropolis Milquetoast"

I can't stand to see him be "Good, Humble ... and stupid" or used as a sounding board for every piss-poor cowards commentary about social issues.

We've settled after all these year that he's a "Symbol for hope" but too many people get to drag him, and drag him away from that.
Hard to like someone that so many writers tend to actively take umbrage with.

Wow I like this post, let's get those like buttons now

[TheBatman]

Superman's fanbase is playing as much of a part in his failure as WB/DC is. I don't know how many times I've had to hear that too much tragedy spiel but Spiderman No Way Home pretty much showed us that people are inspired by people overcoming their hardships not by people that don't experience them. Then we've had the ludicrous defense of things like severing his connecting to the legion and dumping stuff like Krypto both of which have persevered despite many of the things the modern writers have created to replace them.

Everything here sounds more like "Post Crisis Superman fanbase" than the fanbase at large.

[Doctor Know]

Not a complaint of mine, but I wanted to ask.

Does anyone else find Lois' penchant for being a damsel that needs to be rescued tired? 80+ years and she's still getting herself into trouble and needs to be pulled out of the fire.

Should this change? I know writers damsel her to include her in Supes' stories without always focusing on the romance angle, but something else would be more appropriate.

[Vordan]

Not a complaint of mine, but I wanted to ask.

Does anyone else find Lois' penchant for being a damsel that needs to be rescued tired? 80+ years and she's still getting herself into trouble and needs to be pulled out of the fire.

Should this change? I know writers damsel her to include her in Supes' stories without always focusing on the romance angle, but something else would be more appropriate.

I can’t recall them doing that in anything lately. She saved him actually in the last issue of S&tA. But it kind of comes with the territory, Lois is always getting into trouble, sometimes Supes gets her out of it, sometimes she gets herself out of it. I prefer the latter

[DochaDocha]

Not a complaint of mine, but I wanted to ask.

Does anyone else find Lois' penchant for being a damsel that needs to be rescued tired? 80+ years and she's still getting herself into trouble and needs to be pulled out of the fire.

Should this change? I know writers damsel her to include her in Supes' stories without always focusing on the romance angle, but something else would be more appropriate.

I'm also unsure this is something writers really lean on hard these days. I think there's a happy medium somewhere. If you do something like the Eiffel Tower scene in Superman II or do what Snyder did in his movies, then I'll take a hard pass. But I think sometimes they overcompensate for that bad DiD stuff and make Lois some ersatz superhero in her own right, and that doesn't do much for me, either. But my controversial take on Lois is that she should be proficient with guns and carry one if they're going to go the army brat route, instead of insisting she's an accomplished street/MMA fighter or something like that.

[Doctor Know]

I can’t recall them doing that in anything lately. She saved him actually in the last issue of S&tA. But it kind of comes with the territory, Lois is always getting into trouble, sometimes Supes gets her out of it, sometimes she gets herself out of it. I prefer the latter

I'm also unsure this is something writers really lean on hard these days. I think there's a happy medium somewhere. If you do something like the Eiffel Tower scene in Superman II or do what Snyder did in his movies, then I'll take a hard pass. But I think sometimes they overcompensate for that bad DiD stuff and make Lois some ersatz superhero in her own right, and that doesn't do much for me, either. But my controversial take on Lois is that she should be proficient with guns and carry one if they're going to go the army brat route, instead of insisting she's an accomplished street/MMA fighter or something like that.

Maybe that's it. I spent the last week rereading New 52 Supes and rewatching Superman TAS. Damsel should be Lois' middle name. I go back to the Snyder movies, and think of how Lois was damseled under Donner and Singer.

My perception was a little screwed up. Thanks for the assistance.

[Stanlos]

Lois is only interesting so that we can get The Metropolis Kid and/or in the timelines when she becomes Superwoman.

You didn't find her interesting during Loeb/Kelly era? I loved the character's from that point on with brilliant highlights being Rucka's stint in the Superbooks, his recent Lois Lane mini (which unfortunately was published during this whole multiverse obsession thing) and Warren Ellis run in JL Classified (give him the book already)

[Prime]

Superman has had haters for a long fucking time. Don't make it a bigger deal than it is. Full stop.

Yes but why is that?

[LoveStar]

Superman can’t move forward because of his Post-Crisis baggage. His ideal of hope and self righteousness is embedded in white American privilege and xenophobic subtext.
Knowing that Rebirth was targeted for a more conservative audience with praising America and the perfect nuclear family is why Superman still struggles with actual relatability to the general audience. Whatever “struggles” he has are generic minor problems only privileged people complain about and can easily be wiped away. Space Jesus doesn’t make it any better either.

[Yoda]

Superman can’t move forward because of his Post-Crisis baggage. His ideal of hope and self righteousness is embedded in white American privilege and xenophobic subtext.
Knowing that Rebirth was targeted for a more conservative audience with praising America and the perfect nuclear family is why Superman still struggles with actual relatability to the general audience. Whatever “struggles” he has are generic minor problems only privileged people complain about and can easily be wiped away. Space Jesus doesn’t make it any better either.

Yeah, he definitely needs the far more relatable struggles that come with of dating a gorgeous, white, immortal, invincible royal demigod who can take his super dick and be a brood mare to a super race of god kids. Really non-generic "struggles" that are far more relatable. Rebirth wasn't perfect, but the idea that its inherently worse or "easier" than what came before is ridiculous. There were no "struggles" for New52 Superman.

My complaint is that really "relatability" has become a meaningless buzz word with Superman and that all these attempts to make him "relatable" are a mess and will never work. No one knows what it means or what it actually is supposed to serve. Some of the most popular characters or franchises in fiction are not "relatable" in any way shape or form. James Bond, Fast & Furious, the MCU, etc. Batman isn't "relatable" in the same sense that Superman is criticized for. Spider-Man isn't "relatable" in the same sense either. The majority of both the comic fandoms are middle aged white men. Superman is actually - in all his incarnations - far more relatable than either. Most people just mean that they don't like the character or the stories.

Superman and his stories aren't cynical enough, that is the problem. And one I don't want fixed actually. There would be the same reaction to everyone's pet versions of Superman across the board for that reason. Relatability is a strawman at best. PJK's Superman isn't "relatable" and neither is Morrison's. Yet both are pretty much the gold standard for modern versions.