Jason is the most loyal Robin

[dietrich]

So are we also acknowledging Glass Teen Titans run too, even when most writers probably won't at all? You know, with that awfull moment with the bomb. Or the issue in Deathstroke where he stopped Wally's heart?

I don't think it's a likely idea. Lots of stories get forgotten and retconned out of a character's history, because they're bad, or against that certain character general portrait. Happens with a ton of characters, all the time, since forever. You may think otherwise, but that's not how it generally works for most readers and writers. For a reason, too. It's because you need to build a character for them to work in your mind, and for that, you need to select. They're fictional, you don't need to draw every thing they do to their background, unlike real people. And most folks don't do that unaware of what they do because it's just the natural thing to do.

I just had this same argument not long ago over in the Damian thread about the GlassTT run and like I said there YES WE ARE.

Damian did stop Wally West's heart. That is something Damian would do.

Writers have changed Damian's motivations in TT but he did strap a bomb to himself That moment was OCC and deeply racist but like lois lane in blackface that moment still happened

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not canon.

[dietrich]

I totally get fans wanting to ignore stories with takes on characters they don't like. But Jason seems to get this treatment from people second only to Bruce himself around these parts.

The duffle bag full of heads, BFTC, attacking Tim in Titan's Tower, New York and Morrison's run all happened kind of near each other didn't they? Wasn't it all more or less consistent with Jason at that time, for better or worse? It doesn't seem like they knew what to do with him besides use him as a villain until the New 52/Lobdell.

It was consistent with Jason which is why I don't understand why fans want to whitewash it all.

Characters have ups and downs and the fact that this characterisation spanned many books and many writers makes it harder to it an anomaly.

That was Jason. He has made some changes but That is still who he was and he did do all those things.

[Pohzee]

I just had this same argument not long ago over in the Damian thread about the GlassTT run and like I said there YES WE ARE.

Damian did stop Wally West's heart. That is something Damian would do.

Writers have changed Damian's motivations in TT but he did strap a bomb to himself That moment was OCC and deeply racist but like lois lane in blackface that moment still happened

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not canon.

That's actually legitimately how DC seems to be approaching cannon these days. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

[SiegePerilous02]

Actually, the heads in the bag was in february 2005, the titans tower stuff in december 2005, and bftc in 2009. For what's worth, tentacle Jason was in May 2006. Also quite isolated. In the inbetween, we had Winnick writing him like he was in Under the Hood twice: one in the Outsiders and one in Green Arrow. I think both were in 2006.

It wasn't next to each other. And they barely account for a few sparse issues. They didn't had a plan outside Winnick's own use until Countdown to Final Crisis. That story was an absolute mess, but the part with Jason, Donna and Kyle was steady content in a certain direction that transitioned from Winnick antagonistic Jason, to a full antihero. Well, the may have had a plan for Jason to take on Nightwing's mantle (no way happening), but maybe it was also scrapped and we know how it ended, or at least that's what I've read that it happened: I don't know it it's true or just speculation by someone I read once. Anyways, the challengers part was decent enough that it was memtioned and nodded afterwards. But then, near the conclusion all went to the crap bin again. The book ended in april 2008, but I think Jason was out the book in January or so. That plan was scrapped and the next thing Jason appeared in was... Batman RIP I think? Afterwards, BFTC.

Who wrote the bag full of heads? Wasn't it Winnick? Didn't he also say he viewed Jason as a villain, albeit a complicated/sympathetic one?

Even if they weren't RIGHT next to each other, it doesn't sound like he has a whole lot of appearances at that point and there wasn't much coordination in any of them anyway. They evidently didn't have a plan after the shock factor of Jason being back, not compared to Bucky's return over at Marvel at least. As much as many people dislike all that stuff, the Countdown stuff with Donna and Kyle sounds like the outliers at that time.

[Zaresh]

Who wrote the bag full of heads? Wasn't it Winnick? Didn't he also say he viewed Jason as a villain, albeit a complicated/sympathetic one?

Even if they weren't RIGHT next to each other, it doesn't sound like he has a whole lot of appearances at that point and there wasn't much coordination in any of them anyway. They evidently didn't have a plan after the shock factor of Jason being back, not compared to Bucky's return over at Marvel at least. As much as many people dislike all that stuff, the Countdown stuff with Donna and Kyle sounds like the outliers at that time.

Mmm, sympathy, that's a good point. It was Winnick, yes. And he said that or something like that, I think. Winnick's Jason is a sympathetic (I like that) man who most of the time does the wrong thing for a reason he finds fair or good (it's arguable if it is or not. It's giving Bruce the chance to show he cares for Jason enough to cross lines a good enough reason for killing Joker? Well, no. But Jason in that story thinks it is, probably). I think that being sympathetic is a big part of the character under his writing, even when he probably writes Jason more sympathetic that he intends him to be. My guess. I don't think he want's him to be that much sympathetic. It's funny.

I read somewhere that the whole Under the Hood story sprung from Hush. That one fake out with Clayface with a fake Revenant Jason Todd apparently was a popular enough idea that someone suggested making a story like that: Jason Todd, coming back from the dead, and making problems for Batman. And then it came the actual pitch. The comic was popular, but not a hit like, say, Winter Soldier's was* for Captain America around the time. And it was a character that was problematic, because DC had used him in a* certain way that didn't look good. I mean how they used his death to partially fuel Bruce's angst for a decade, blaming Jason and retconning him into something else in the way. Add to that Jason being a character that had barely 5* or so years of discontinued presence in the actual comics, which means he didn't have much of a follow base, and, well, he wasn't going to show up a lot in the comics. I think, I guess, the original idea was to kill him in the end of Under the Hood, but it's a guess. But then, because the character was sympathetic and DC doesn't have or had a lot of characters like that back then, they kept him. I guess Winnick planned to use him like a recurring character: he could add a nice dynamic to his books and some people liked him well enough, either because he felt interesting, or cool, or dangerous. But when Winnick left Jason was still popular enough. I'm guessing, a small fanbase, but a fanbase nevertheless. I can guess DC wanted to use him, but they didn't know how yet.

In 2010 the Under the Red Hood was released, his fanbase grew more, and he was definitely set to be more sympathetic than not. I wonder if Winnick is aware of why so many people feel sympathy for him. It's not just because he looked cool. Many antagonists look cool, and sure it was a drawing point and why he's so often cosplayed. But it's not why he has fans. He was becoming slowly relatable to some degree, even when he's a murderer who falls into psychotic moods. I mean, you can't relate to that, but still.

For Bucky, his story arc in Captain America and the following books was a well thought project. I mean: it's Brubaker. Now, after Brubaker left... Marvel has been struggling with what to do with Bucky for years. But Bucky was intended to be an ally or a neutral part from the beginning, so I don't know if it's a fitting enough comparison.

Edit: I remember telling one of my friends that one of the reasons why I love this character so much is because his editorial history is a mess and, despite of that, the character survived and grew into something mostly whole.

[RedBird]

I totally get fans wanting to ignore stories with takes on characters they don't like. But Jason seems to get this treatment from people second only to Bruce himself around these parts.

The duffle bag full of heads, BFTC, attacking Tim in Titan's Tower, New York and Morrison's run all happened kind of near each other didn't they? Wasn't it all more or less consistent with Jason at that time, for better or worse? It doesn't seem like they knew what to do with him besides use him as a villain until the New 52/Lobdell.

To be fair, only two of those are actually stories that fans of the character have come to a more unified consensus that they both dislike and would prefer it retconned because of the random gear shift and OOCness. Fans don't complain about the duffle bag, attacking Tim was, to me, questionable but not something completely or overall ignored by fandom, the New York story seems ignored by everyone to be fair, more so for how bizarre it is in a whatever, comics are weird, kind of way, but not that this needs to be completely retconned for the sake of character consistency. I can only think of BFTC and Morrisons run that people tend to completely ignore because for obvious reasons fans tend not to look too kindly on purposeful character assassinations, which was what BTFC was, and was then followed up by Morrisons take which decided to lead with that and to retcon Jasons past to justify it's own story.

Four issues from Morrison, (well three but I think the character shows up for one or two pages in one book) and three issues from Daniels. So a grand total of 6-7 issues for a character with at least 20 years of stories. The absurd 'Evil Cass' arc was just about as long, and is happily ignored by fandom as nonsense, heroes in crisis was an even longer disaster and Wally fans were happy to see it retconned away, jeez the last two years of Ric, with it's underwhelming story, bizarre character decisions and strange wedge placed between Dick and Babs, seem to be ignored already and no one is making a fuss, myself included, and that's not even getting into more reviled Grayson books like the annual, or the tarantula arc that as far as canon is concerned, thankfully have been pushed to the wayside. No offense of course, but to me, 6-7 issues doesn't seem anywhere near as drastic or 'second only to Bruce' in terms of content people would prefer gone. And as others have stated, DC themselves already ignore more than half their own stories anyway, so you certainly won't see me holding onto evil Cass, murderer Wally or ugh Ric, as stories and runs that must absolutely stay and remain canon just for the sake of it. Count me in as one of the fans who will happily ignore and want stories retconned away for the characters that I like, especially messy stories that just needlessly complicate their history or characterisation.

Oh and to answer the thread, no I don't think Jason is the most loyal Robin, if this was a vote I guess I would have voted for Dick or maybe even Tim.

[Godlike13]

Prior to the new 52 Jason didn’t actually have that many stories. Ric wasn’t Nightwing’s 4th or 5th story after his debut. If it was, it’d become much harder to just ignore within the sea of Nightwing content. As there isn’t a lot of content overall. It becomes even more complicated when the stories weren’t looked poorly on, and were actually a part of a monumental runs like B&R.

Some fans complain about any story that doesn’t perpetuate the idea that Jason is just some misunderstood victim. Countdown was widely hated and swept under the rug, but that apparently counts while pretty much any story that doesn’t adhere to this romanticized idea of Jason either doesn’t or is being revised. Jason’s motivation in UthRH ultimately boiled down to you didn’t avenge me, so f you and f everything you stand for. But no, now Jason was just trying to teach Bruce a lesson for his own good. He beats the **** out Tim. Oh that too, just another lesson. LoL, alright sure.

[Pohzee]

Edit: Eh. Not relevant

[RedBird]

Prior to the new 52 Jason didn’t actually have that many stories. Ric wasn’t Nightwing’s 4th or 5th story after his debut. If it was, it’d become much harder to just ignore within the sea of Nightwing content.

Which is why I used the 'Evil Cass' example as well, cause that was only about seven years after her debut, BFTC was about nine for Jason counting his debut from Robin. But this is even more irrelevant now because there are more stories, and there are more consistent characterisations that just don't gel with that era any more and only complicate the character, it was a drastic direction that was thrown off course soon after.

It becomes even more complicated when the stories weren’t looked poorly on, and were actually a part of a monumental run like B&R.

A frustrating element that for a while made the era for the character more difficult to ignore, but not necessarily more difficult to retcon away. This is coming from the same company that wiped nearly all character history in a reboot called New52 and a decade later is still a mish mash with where everything is in history. If they wanted to retcon it, (as in Jasons role in the run) they could. And for all intents and purposes, it does seem to be ignored in main continuity anyway. Seems like the only place it's brought up is comic threads and arguments, so, much easier to ignore now honestly.

[Claude]

A frustrating element that for a while made the era for the character more difficult to ignore, but not necessarily more difficult to retcon away. This is coming from the same company that wiped nearly all character history in a reboot called New52 and a decade later is still a mish mash with where everything is in history. If they wanted to retcon it, (as in Jasons role in the run) they could. And for all intents and purposes, it does seem to be ignored in main continuity anyway. Seems like the only place it's brought up is comic threads and arguments, so, much easier to ignore now honestly.

Yeah, honestly, I think that's fine. I love the Morrison run, and don't mind Jason as a villain - but when DC changed their mind, it's arguably more honest to say "yeah, all that villain stuff he did didn't happen - we aren't doing that any more" than it is to try and incorporate it into a realistic history of the character.

It's why I quite like things like the recent Nightwing annual back-filling the history between Dick and Jason - retconning stuff to better support how the character is now, rather than very rigidly sticking to a published history that was never intended to leave the characters where they are now.

[Godlike13]

Except Evil Cass pretty much ruined Cass, and put the character in a major hole because it wasn’t just easily forgotten. Proving that the less overall content, the harder it becomes to just brush off and ignore stories. Sure they move on, like they currently are from the RHatOs era, but that doesn’t mean all is lost. It also doesn’t mean those stories have no relevance when it comes to discussions and claims. And even the New 52 didn’t wipe out B&R. Even if they retcon parts, it’s of the caliber of runs that will be touted through out the years a one to the greats. So unless they take those parts out of the printing, it’s never going to just disappear like some Jason fans would like it too. That run is going to be read more then eventual retcons.

[RedBird]

Except Evil Cass pretty much ruined Cass, and put the character in a major hole because it wasn’t just easily forgotten. Proving that the less overall content, the harder it becomes to just brush off and ignore stories.

The Evil Cass arc is ignored for it's OOCness, my whole point was about how both the fans of the character and other general DC fans look at the runs and accept that it should be ignored and not implemented into their characterisation or the history. I wasn't talking about the consequences thereafter in comics. But in regards to that, yes, I know, it put the character in a terrible place, which is why fans tend not to enjoy runs with these kind of drastic turns. Cass was unluckily targeted and labelled toxic, and that could have been the same unfortunate end for Jason, but pretty much after Jason's 'divisive' run, the new52 had been right around the corner, and by some miracle, DC course corrected after receiving much requests from fans for him to have a series. Jason got a lucky break, Cass at the time didn't.

Sure they move on, like they currently are from the RHatOs era, but that doesn’t mean all is lost. It also doesn’t mean those stories have no relevance when it comes to discussions and claims.

I never said the stories have no relevance in discussions, quite the opposite, I literally said the places it seems to only show up, is in comic threads and arguments, I would assume that covered the concept of discussion as well.

And even the New 52 didn’t wipe out B&R. Even if they retcon parts, it’s of the caliber of runs that will be touted through out the years a one to the greats. So unless they take those parts out of the printing, it’s never going to just disappear like some Jason fans would like it too. That run is going to be read more then eventual retcons.

??? I'm aware, that retcons don't make comics disappear, I'm aware that pages featuring Jason in B&R won't be erased out of books on shelves, I never asked for that. I'm aware that retcons don't mean that the stories as they were written will change, just that a retcon determines whether elements or events in stories from past are actually upheld in the present and current history of the character and their development. That's it.

[Swallowtail]

Yeah, honestly, I think that's fine. I love the Morrison run, and don't mind Jason as a villain - but when DC changed their mind, it's arguably more honest to say "yeah, all that villain stuff he did didn't happen - we aren't doing that any more" than it is to try and incorporate it into a realistic history of the character.

It's why I quite like things like the recent Nightwing annual back-filling the history between Dick and Jason - retconning stuff to better support how the character is now, rather than very rigidly sticking to a published history that was never intended to leave the characters where they are now.

The interesting thing about that though is that the Dickbats era lies pretty strongly on the canon scale of sliding scale of ‘canon’ vs ‘The comics history of Cassandra Cain’. In that most fans And writers agree it happened And will probably continue to happen in future iterations of Batman that get that far. And the most suitable answer for ‘where was Jason during all this is still ‘Jason hit rock bottom, endangered his family and had to be locked up for a while’. Maybe not quite the way Morrison depicted -I feel like Morrisson’s cardinal sin was his Jason was sort of generic. His sidekick was more interesting - but certainly some pretty heinous behavior.

DC has been very vague on what Jason actually did since he had his personality transplant and the lack of any Red Hood year 2 story that showed that transition hasn’t helped but considering the amount of time he spends worrying about what a bad person and a let down to his family he is, he has to have done something.