Isn't Steph the most loyal Robin, though? Didn't quit, but surpassed Jason by not being so disloyal as to make Bruce very sad by dying in the role.
Isn't Steph the most loyal Robin, though? Didn't quit, but surpassed Jason by not being so disloyal as to make Bruce very sad by dying in the role.
In a way, it could be said that Jason was the more loyal but not to Bruce himself but rather, to the ideal Bruce that Jason build in his head and came to idolize. The core of his conflict when he returned was the fact he felt betrayed because Bruce didn't avenge him. The whole thing about being the "Batman he couldn't be" is just an extension to that and depending on the writer and/or your perspective is just a way for Jason to justify himself going against the man he viewed as his dad.
The fact is, we'll never know. Jason was killed after around two years, give or take, of being Robin. We can't really predict if he'd have struck out on his own like Dick eventually did, or continued to stay with Bruce into adulthood. Frankly, I don't think him staying as Robin, or leaving, reflects on his 'loyalty' (or lack thereof) in any way. I don't think Dick was 'disloyal' towards Bruce in any interpretation of the break from him. If anything, the Post-COIE versions had Bruce pushing Dick away!
I'm not even debating the issue of whether Jason is loyal to Bruce or not, because I don't think we can 100% predict if Jason would have remained as Robin at age 19 based on how we was like at age 14. Nor do I believe that the question of whether or not he stayed as Robin even definitively indicates something about 'loyalty'.
I was just pointing out a couple of alternate continuities which presented Jason as having fundamental differences with Bruce even before his death. Which I agree is revisionism, since the original comics of the late 80's didn't show Jason as being that rebellious or violent, except perhaps for the story where he let's the rapist diplomat's son fall (or not). My point was that whichever interpretation you go with, there's nothing to indicate that Jason is necessarily more 'loyal' to Bruce and would have stayed on as Robin longer than any of the others did.
Last edited by bat39; 12-13-2021 at 10:19 AM.
Another thing is that a lot of you seem to be stuck on the concept of Loyalty
It not even supposed to be a feather in your cap
Although because we are talking about heroes and are fans of individual characters it will be
Its about the support end of story
If we use a sports analogy the superstar who stays with one franchise his whole career is loyal
Jason's career as Robin was shorter but he never left the partnership
Gosh, looking again at my post, I should stop posting here when I'm in my tablet and can't spellcheck properly.
I don't feel we don't need to talk about any of that since that is part of the job. They all have examples like that. That's what Robins/Bat allies do when working with Batman not necessary to make a list.
Simply pointing out that you are incorrect when you say that Jason has never betrayed Bruce. He has.
Jason did do much in Injustice which is strange considering his arguments and ideology since his return.
Shame because there could have done something more interesting and nuanced.
Like they did with Damian whose arc in the saga turned out to be one of the best.
Back to the point. I believe all the Robins are Loyal.
I don't agree that Jason is the most loyal because he was killed.
Steph was killed and she's still working with Bruce.
Tim was fired, presumed dead, unavenged, no one attempted to bring him back and he's still in the role.
Damian was killed [many times] and he's still in the role. Currently working through his severe PTSD but still in the role.
Last edited by Fergus; 12-13-2021 at 01:30 AM.
When did I said that? I didn't do. I said he wasn't unloyal.
But I'll explain my point of view on that. I disagree in a lot of points, included the definition of betrayal. I don't think he betrayed Bruce by the act of attacking them. He betrayed them, characters he barely had any contact with prior. But Bruce? Ironically, Jason, in his head, was sure he was helping Bruce in his work, making him realize of his faults, his faults by Jason's own image and ideals of how Bruce is and what he should be. I don't think that falls much in the betrayal category, not certainly in the intended betrayal.
And if we take into account all the times that he broke their mutual trust, we should also point all the other times he didn't. No matter if they were in the costume or not. He's loyal to Bruce. Has he broke that trust? He has, but I would argue that even so, he was still loyal to Bruce. Well, most of the time anyways.
You know when Jason betrayed Bruce, when he did actively and willy? During late Rebirth time, when he briefly aided Luthor. That not only broke their trust, and was a danger to Bruce. That literally put him against Bruce, actively, and not because he thought he was helping Bruce to be a better Batman.
Last edited by Zaresh; 12-13-2021 at 04:25 AM.
DC: Dick Grayson, Wally West, Donna Troy, Yara Flor, Titans
Some of my favorite Mangas: One Piece, Slam Dunk, Fullmetal Alchemist, HunterXHunter, Vinland Saga, Monster, Berserk, Vagabond.
Current reading: Jujutsu Kaisen, Chainsaw Man, Spy X Family, Kaiju Nș8, Blue Lock, Dandadan.
Jason killed. That is betraying Bruce and everything he stands for. Betrayal, by definition, is disloyalty.
Even if you go before the Red Hood you could argue that as Robin he killed Felipe Garzonas, the diplomat's son (although that is left a little ambiguous).
I'd actually argue that Jason is the ONLY Robin to be disloyal.
"Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"
"I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"
"*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."
Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!