Headcanon Batman timeline

[Aahz]

If you look at actually Golden Age comics, Hugo Strange and the Mad Monk are iirc the only somewhat important villains that pre date Robin.

Joker, Catwoman, Penguin, Scarecrow, Two Face and Clayface (but without any powers) are iirc the only ones that appeared reactively close after Robin in the early 40s. With Joker, Catwoman and Penguin the only ones that were appearing really frequently.

Mad Hatter and Riddler are from the late 40s.

And Ivy and Calendar Man are both Silver Age Villains and don't belong that early in Batman's history.

And Grundy isn't even an Batman villain.

[Restingvoice]

When did Grundy become a Batman regular?

[JBatmanFan05]

When did Grundy become a Batman regular?

Some may argue he never did become a "regular." He has showed up a lot in Justice League and Superman comics too.

Let's see...Grundy was in Det Comics #523 in 1983 (but also was in some Superman comics in that era), he was the villain in Shadow of the Bat #39 (June 1995), then he was in Long Halloween, etc.

I'm not sure I yet think Grundy is a "regular" Batman rogue (unless he can be a "regular" for many heroes/groups). He was originally a Green Lantern rogue and seems to appear all over the DCU over the years.

[John Venus]

Grundy was one of Alan Scott/Green Lantern's enemy and later the enemy of the JSA. Alan was co-created by Bill Finger and was shown to be working on E-2's Gotham so writers tend to draw a tertiary connection at times between Grundy and Batman because of that. Hence why Grundy was in Long Halloween which got carried over to 'The Batman' show and the Arkham Games.

But Grundy isn't so much as a Batman regular as he is a villain that can be shared with other heroes because he isn't exclusive to just one. A somewhat lesser but still the same deal as Vandal Savage and Felix Faust.

[Timothy Hunter]

Solomon Grundy has never been seen as a Batman mainstay, but him appearing in one of the most popular Batman stories, The Long Halloween, might create the perception that he is.


I assume Jeph Loeb used him in the Long Halloween as a nod to Alan Scott's roots in Gotham

[Restingvoice]

I see. Aside from Long Halloween, it's the Arkham games that gave that impression (also Tom King since he's recent).

[kevink31593]

Lots of interesting discussion in this thread! Instead of replying to any specific quote, I'll just provide some more of my thoughts.

Even though I started this thread with a "Year 1" thru "Year 21" timeline that that fits my headcanon, I am completely against that being the official DC Batman timeline, with the numbered years being referenced in the actual stories. I mostly like the current post Infinite Frontier editorial policy of "everything happened", and I really like that they are not trying to force an "official" timeline now. Because as seen in this thread, different fans have their own individual ideas and headcanon. In the past when DC tried to do official timelines, whether it was the 10 year Zero Hour timeline or the 5 year New 52 timeline or whatever, it was never perfect. If DC remains vague about a timeline, that helps to avoid contradictions, and fans can imagine the timeline however they choose.

A good example is this week's new issue of The Joker, #10. This issue featured a flashback story set not long after The Killing Joke. In my headcanon timeline from the original post in this thread, The Killing Joke happened 8 years ago. However in The Joker #10, the story simply takes place "years ago". So any fan reading this story can imagine it took place however many years ago they choose to.

JBatmanFan05 and bat39, I agree with a lot of what you were saying about thinking in terms of "eras". So if DC is showing flashbacks to previous eras, I'm happy if the flashback mostly fits in with the era when it's supposed to take place.

As far as a lot of Batman's villains retroactively showing up in the pre-Robin era, that's why I like an expanded pre-Robin era in my headcanon, to allow time for that. I am ok with some of the major big name villains showing up earlier than Dick/Robin, like Joker, Two-Face, Catwoman, Riddler, Penguin, etc. However, I do agree with there being a limit to moving more recent villains any earlier in Batman's career. ​As discussed by myself and others earlier in this thread, I am not OK with Ra's first appearance being moved earlier. I think Ra's first showing up when Dick is at Hudson needs to stay in place, since it wouldn't make much sense for Ra's to seek out a younger, less experienced Batman. Also for example, Bane should never be moved earlier in Batman's career. Bane showing up prior to Knightfall would just make no sense.

Killer Croc I am more OK with moving earlier, especially since Killer Croc's original appearance is linked with Jason Todd's retconned original circus origin. I am also ok with Harley Quinn being moved earlier. Her original canon appearance was during No Man's Land, and I am ok with moving her as far back as the latter end of Dick's time as Robin, to mirror her being active when Dick was in college and still Robin in The Animated Series. But Harley shouldn't appear any earlier than that, since Joker needs to have been around for a long while before Harley shows up. Also, Harley doesn't need to have been with Joker 100% of the time after she first showed up, so it still makes sense to read stories set between Dick being in college up to No Man's Land that feature Joker without Harley. He did often leave her behind locked up in Arkham, as seen in the first episode of the Harley Quinn animated series!

[JBatmanFan05]

Killer Croc I am more OK with moving earlier, especially since Killer Croc's original appearance is linked with Jason Todd's retconned original circus origin.

Wait, why are you ok with moving Croc's (who first appeared in Tec 523) first encounter with Batman to early in Batman's career?

I intend to keep Croc first encounter where Todd's old (incompatible, retconned out) origin was...so Croc remains like the first big new longlasting main rogue Batman encounters after Tec #513 (Batman moving out of the penthouse back to the Manor).

But I'm presuming you figure that because Todd's old origin is out, Croc's story there must be out too. But I don't agree with that (in my headcanon). That Croc first appearance story still mostly happens (especially since it's one of Croc's best stories or his best) for me even if the Todd origin aspects are out.

I'm curious, are all pre-COIE Jason stories out of canon for you?

For me, it goes roughly like this: Todd's post-Crisis origin comics (so like up to Batman #411 or #416 even)....then a gap somewhere where all of Jason's pre-COIE (Croc, Nocturna, etc, etc) stories mostly happened (amended some)....then back on to post-Crisis Jason appearances.

In a way, I basically move back the earliest post-Crisis Jason origin stories (from 1987) to 1983 so as to preserve Conway and Moench's pre-COIE Jason stories.

[kevink31593]

Wait, why are you ok with moving Croc's (who first appeared in Tec 523) first encounter with Batman to early in Batman's career?

I intend to keep Croc first encounter where Todd's old (incompatible, retconned out) origin was...so Croc remains like the first big new longlasting main rogue Batman encounters after Tec #513 (Batman moving out of the penthouse back to the Manor).

But I'm presuming you figure that because Todd's old origin is out, Croc's story there must be out too. But I don't agree with that (in my headcanon). That Croc first appearance story still mostly happens (especially since it's one of Croc's best stories or his best) for me even if the Todd origin aspects are out.

I'm curious, are all pre-COIE Jason stories out of canon for you?

For me, it goes roughly like this: Todd's post-Crisis origin comics (so like up to Batman #411 or #416 even)....then a gap somewhere where all of Jason's pre-COIE (Croc, Nocturna, etc, etc) stories mostly happened (amended some)....then back on to post-Crisis Jason appearances.

In a way, I basically move back the earliest post-Crisis Jason origin stories (from 1987) to 1983 so as to preserve Conway and Moench's pre-COIE Jason stories.

It's been about 10 years since I re-read the Conway run where Croc first appeared. Maybe I need to give that another re-read soon, and my opinion might change!

spoilers:

I liked the first issue of Robin & Batman by Lemire and Nguyen, and Croc's appearance in that story didn't really bother me. I got the second issue but haven't read it yet.

end of spoilers

All pre-Crisis Jason stories are definitely not out for me. I like to imagine that most of the Conway/Moench 80s stuff still happened, but just with Jason's revised origin, as you say.

[JBatmanFan05]

All pre-Crisis Jason stories are definitely not out for me. I like to imagine that most of the Conway/Moench 80s stuff still happened, but just with Jason's revised origin, as you say.

Gotcha. I was just curious. Admittedly, it's one of the thorniest issues of Batman canon (and our headcanons)....how to square or meld together the two versions of Jason Todd. And so I'm always a little curious what people's thoughts are on all that. It doesn't get talked about much (as far as I know).

We know DC still shows references and flashbacks to the For the Man Who has Everything (which stars pre-COIE Jason), so it's likely DC too believes the stories to be in canon in some way.

Other fun (or frustrating) canon challenges:
-how to make sense of the Monk's continuity....Golden Age vs Matt Wagner's (Niccolai Tepes) vs Gerry Conway's (Louis DuBois) vs whatever one Tom King was referring to in the like one panel where he used him....I think in my headcanon, Wagner's is the main Monk, and so Conway's origin (with the Monk being post-Civil War plantation owner in New Orleans named Louis DuBois) is out of canon, but Tepes Monk did fight Batman mostly the same as in the Conway story. Thus Conway's story is effectively a sequel to Wagner's story (and maybe King's if that was flashback, which I cannot recall it was a present battle King showed or a flashback), just Batman facing the Monk later mid career.

-The Phantasm (Andrea Beaumont) is in my headcanon, but how to account for pre-Joker killing Carl Beaumont? I don't accept Joker having an origin at all (besides wearing that Red Hood). My headcanon is that Carl wasn't a pre-Joker kill, but a very early kill in Joker's career as Andrea breaks it off with Bruce so she and Carl can flee to Europe, and Joker (who I imagine starts out as kinda friendly enough with Gotham's mob community) as Joker kills Carl in Europe. (later Joker's willingness to work with the mob evaporates as his whims or philosophy or ambitions change)

[Aahz]

We know DC still shows references and flashbacks to the For the Man Who has Everything (which stars pre-COIE Jason), so it's likely DC too believes the stories to be in canon in some way.

I think his appearences in non Batman books (like For the Man Who has Everything or Titans) are easier to keep than the Batman ones, since you don't need to change much.
With the Batman stories from that era you would have also change other stuff that doesn't really work with current continuity like Julia Pennyworth.

Btw. I would really like to see some of this stories brought back into post crisis Jason's past, since this was a pretty good era for Batman comics.

-The Phantasm (Andrea Beaumont) is in my headcanon, but how to account for pre-Joker killing Carl Beaumont? I don't accept Joker having an origin at all (besides wearing that Red Hood). My headcanon is that Carl wasn't a pre-Joker kill, but a very early kill in Joker's career as Andrea breaks it off with Bruce so she and Carl can flee to Europe, and Joker (who I imagine starts out as kinda friendly enough with Gotham's mob community) as Joker kills Carl in Europe. (later Joker's willingness to work with the mob evaporates as his whims or philosophy or ambitions change)

My headcannon is to ignore everything Tom King has written.

[JBatmanFan05]

My headcanon is to ignore everything Tom King has written.

Even before Tom King I had Mask of the Phantasm in my headcanon. King had nothing to do with it. I just absolutely love Mask of the Phantasm.

[TheRay]

I'd say the present is Batman at Year 16 or so.

I love headcanon discussions since they don't really have to be based in any sort of reality.

Year 0: Batman 430, Batman Zero Year
Year 1: Batman - Year One, Detective Comics 33, Batman: Shaman, The Man Who Falls, Mask of the Phantasm, Batman Earth One 1,

I think it makes sense to have Alfred, Kate Kane, and Bruce be the same age.

[bat39]

If you look at actually Golden Age comics, Hugo Strange and the Mad Monk are iirc the only somewhat important villains that pre date Robin.

Joker, Catwoman, Penguin, Scarecrow, Two Face and Clayface (but without any powers) are iirc the only ones that appeared reactively close after Robin in the early 40s. With Joker, Catwoman and Penguin the only ones that were appearing really frequently.

Mad Hatter and Riddler are from the late 40s.

And Ivy and Calendar Man are both Silver Age Villains and don't belong that early in Batman's history.

And Grundy isn't even an Batman villain.

The Clayface issue gets interesting because the Year One annuals Post-Crisis rebooted the shapeshifting Matt Hagen Clayface (who originally debuted in the Silver Age) and placed his debut in the Year One era...while Basil Karlo, the original Clayface, continued to have his origin set during the early days of the Dynamic Duo, as per the Golden Age!

Wait, why are you ok with moving Croc's (who first appeared in Tec 523) first encounter with Batman to early in Batman's career?

I intend to keep Croc first encounter where Todd's old (incompatible, retconned out) origin was...so Croc remains like the first big new longlasting main rogue Batman encounters after Tec #513 (Batman moving out of the penthouse back to the Manor).

But I'm presuming you figure that because Todd's old origin is out, Croc's story there must be out too. But I don't agree with that (in my headcanon). That Croc first appearance story still mostly happens (especially since it's one of Croc's best stories or his best) for me even if the Todd origin aspects are out.

I'm curious, are all pre-COIE Jason stories out of canon for you?

For me, it goes roughly like this: Todd's post-Crisis origin comics (so like up to Batman #411 or #416 even)....then a gap somewhere where all of Jason's pre-COIE (Croc, Nocturna, etc, etc) stories mostly happened (amended some)....then back on to post-Crisis Jason appearances.

In a way, I basically move back the earliest post-Crisis Jason origin stories (from 1987) to 1983 so as to preserve Conway and Moench's pre-COIE Jason stories.

Reminds me of the weird way the early Post-Crisis Batman stories handled the timeline. After Year One was published, we had the stories featuring Jason Todd's rebooted origin that were seemingly set in the 'present-day' - giving the impression that Jason had essentially been rebooted from scratch. And then a few issues later you have Dick showing up as Nightwing (apparently meeting Bruce for the first time since he was 'fired') and about 18 months have passed since Dick left/Jason was recruited, with Dick claiming that it was during this time that he joined the original Teen Titans!

Then again, early Post-Crisis continuity was weird across the board. Consider Superman who in the 'present-day' had been around only 3 years and hadn't really fought any iconic members of his rogue's gallery, apart from a couple of encounters with Luthor and a proto-Bizarro. And he co-exists with a Batman who's on his second Robin, the Justice League International, the New Teen Titans etc.

[Zaresh]

The Clayface issue gets interesting because the Year One annuals Post-Crisis rebooted the shapeshifting Matt Hagen Clayface (who originally debuted in the Silver Age) and placed his debut in the Year One era...while Basil Karlo, the original Clayface, continued to have his origin set during the early days of the Dynamic Duo, as per the Golden Age!



Reminds me of the weird way the early Post-Crisis Batman stories handled the timeline. After Year One was published, we had the stories featuring Jason Todd's rebooted origin that were seemingly set in the 'present-day' - giving the impression that Jason had essentially been rebooted from scratch. And then a few issues later you have Dick showing up as Nightwing (apparently meeting Bruce for the first time since he was 'fired') and about 18 months have passed since Dick left/Jason was recruited, with Dick claiming that it was during this time that he joined the original Teen Titans!

Then again, early Post-Crisis continuity was weird across the board. Consider Superman who in the 'present-day' had been around only 3 years and hadn't really fought any iconic members of his rogue's gallery, apart from a couple of encounters with Luthor and a proto-Bizarro. And he co-exists with a Batman who's on his second Robin, the Justice League International, the New Teen Titans etc.

Nocturna's arc finished about the time of the changes between pre and post-COIE, and they referenced her and their story post-COIE.

It's weird. It wasn't clean cut at all.