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  1. #16
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post

    As for Steve Trevor specifically, like others have said maybe a bit differently, since superhero comics started out as primarily male reader focused, love interests were almost always seen as damsels in distress for the hero to save. Since Steve has historically been WW's main love interest, this does nothing for your average male reader. Which is why I always thought the best way to go was Chris Pine's depiction in the first WW movie. Not only was he funny and charming, but he was also very capable, but also knew when to step aside and let Diana deal with threats he was clearly outmatched by. Nor did he feel particularly emasculated doing so. He clearly supported Diana as was his role in the movie, but he also had the utmost confidence in himself at the same time.
    Yes, Steve Trevor can have some humorous quips and be capable and respectful, and an overall really nice guy. But that's not a very compelling argument for Diana to be stuck with him. He just doesn't really add anything to her stories anymore.

    Right now we have a great creative team, and I would argue that the only things dragging them down are Steve Trevor and the Rebirth version of Etta Candy (who has been vivacious in other realities).

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Yes, Steve Trevor can have some humorous quips and be capable and respectful, and an overall really nice guy. But that's not a very compelling argument for Diana to be stuck with him. He just doesn't really add anything to her stories anymore.

    Right now we have a great creative team, and I would argue that the only things dragging them down are Steve Trevor and the Rebirth version of Etta Candy (who has been vivacious in other realities).
    I mean, I hardly think the Diana from the movies ever thought she was "stuck" with Steve, but I digress.

    So who do you think she should be with?
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    Steve Trevor and Lois lane both share the same personality type with Captain Kirk: ESTP. That means Steve should bring to her similar elements to what Lois brings to Clark.

    Sue Dibny and Katma Tui may be more "disrespected". . .

    I guess there are multiple reasons people don't like Wonder Woman being locked down. For one, it ruins the illusion of some readers that they can have her if she's taken, like how K-popstars are told not to date in order to perpetuate the attainability fantasy. Steve is the archetypal high school sports star, so he may not be a who geekier readers identify with. For another thing, a lot of people (men and women) believe in traditional gender roles in a relationship to the point of thinking women should be sidekicks in their relationships, given the domestic responsibilities, and supporting the aspirations of their male counterpart, so writers may just be trying to subvert this by not having WW enter a permanent relationship with a man. In other words, I guess some people fear a relationship in which both partners bring the same things to a relationship. Also, a lot of people see the point of marriage as children, and that opens up a bunch of other questions on what is progressive in that situation. Is the feminist thing to do keeping her surname, taking Steve's, or hyphenating? Could that choice or similar choices put off readers?

    TL;DR, it helps writers avoid debates still going on in feminist circles and doesn't upset the sensitive members of the male readership.
    Diana doesn't have a permanent love interest for the same reason most superheroes, male and female, don't have one - neither the writers nor the editors want her to.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    I mean, I hardly think the Diana from the movies ever thought she was "stuck" with Steve, but I digress.

    So who do you think she should be with?
    I don't think Diana ever felt she was "stuck" with Steve. But as a reader, Wonder Woman has in fact been stuck with him. He hasn't added much to her stories and she doesn't get to experience interesting new romances. Heck, the best kiss a Wonder Woman ever had wasn't even with Steve Trevor, it was with the goddess Artemis:




    There are mainly 2 characters I think would make for a fascinating romance with Diana.


    The first one is Dream Girl from the Legion of Superheroes. A beautiful alien with plantinum hair that has the gift of precognition and astral projection. A woman that can literally feel the future at every second and is constantly trying to better the real world so that the visions that plague her become those of a good future.

    She is otherwordly and dedicated, as well as sassy. She led the Legion of Super-heroes during the Great Darkness Saga and knows the value of sacrificies, which irritates those around her that think she is arrogant and demanding.

    She sees the world from a really unique and arduous perspective that would definitely be compelling for Diana. She is very in touch with the spiritual and ethereal forces of the world, but tries to be pragmatic. She also has a really touching conflict in her since she is trapped by her visions, and this is someone Diana would want to live through.


    The second option is B'wana Beast. I think Diana's side as an adventurer has always been confined, and to me this could be the perfect relationship to explore that. B'wana Beast's main version is the son of a millionaire that finished college and decided to go to the continent of Africa to take care of animals. A bunch of things happen and he gets super strength, mind control over animals and the ability to fuse two different species into a single creature. He is someone selfless that cares about nature and who was acting kindly even before being gifted powers, even abadoning his privileged life.

    He is also someone who obviously is always in the middle of weird adventures, something that I think Diana really would enjoy, and his powers and connection to animals allow her to see something truly new and beautiful, art in nature. He creates new species, which if properly explored would be something Diana would find absolutely beautiful. He also has a deep connection with the animal kingdom that I think Diana would love to experience with him. And they both sacrifice their easy lives for a true cause nobody else seems to care about.

  5. #20
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    All of Diana's love interests will run into the ... I guess personal possible hurdle but narrative sequential comic storytelling non-hurdle ... of the fact Diana's metatextually and probably diagetically polyamorous. Steve might bear the distinction of "first man she met x first man she loved" but writers have to do good work juggling the balance between it seeming like he constantly just pines and worries about Diana from that place versus being her friend and ally and worrying because his love for her, personal or not, is more unconditional.

    If it's the case that his concern and then the fact that whenever they get to hang out they do get romantic, if played as that unconditional dudely best friend and recurring lover in a pantheon of lovers notion, it kind of makes him like the most self-secure, or "least insecure" straight guy in the entire DCU. I think that's probably the smartest option and something that distinguishes Steve and "what's so special or different about Steve?" from various other romantic civilian foils like his closest 'colleague characters' like Lois Lane or Iris West. And it's also kind of a neat notion to have that in a guy who is otherwise ostensibly a properly Action Hero Military Manly Man archetype. Otherwise a writer is going to default to writing him as not only a gender-swapped damsel but simultaneously some kind of whiny cuck the whole time, and he will feel like a constantly disrespected character ... you know, like any of Batman's civilian girlfriends or Dick Grayson's string of overlapping superhero lovers.

    Other than the romantic involvement or friendship with Wonder Woman, though, I feel like he's generally underutilized in the sense of being a G.I. JOE type character walking around in the DCU with a fair dose of plot armor. Like, this is a Destiny-Fated Military Man whose girlfriend is a Peace Warrior and who, a U.S. Military Warrior, counts ARES THE GOD OF WAR as his mortal enemy. What a prime example of a cool masculine role model with that like equal measure mix of 'soft masculinity' and hard-ass bad-assery. An ultimate warrior who hates war. He could be the DCU's Aragorn.
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  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Man, that kind of mentality is ridiculous lol.

    Anyways, I haven't read that much stuff about WW yet, but Steve feels like a directionless character at times, back in New 52 he was basically a bland Ultimate Fury with a crush on Diana (At least in JL comics), and when I checked him out in Rebirth and some issues after Rucka's retelling, he's basically a nice soldier, it kinda feels like they make him into something to stay relevant but that comes at the cost of not really defining him... And if he's usually like this, he sounds like a slightly better Gwen Stacy, and that's not a compliment.
    I think Steve being unremarkable is part of the point. He is a guy who is not afraid at all of having a girlfriend that's stronger and more powerful than him and Diana, the literal demi-Goddess/perfect woman, falls in love with him.

    Which is why stuff like this is hilarious:




    It can fall flat on the page but it works on screen when you have someone like Chris Pine playing him.

    The problem is, it's hard to give him a role after Diana falls in love with him, leaves the island and defeats the Big Bad.

    Also tbh, Diana/Steve are kind of boring as a battle couple. I would much rather see Diana being a duo being Artemis, Zatanna, Deadman, Batman, Donna Troy, Cassie Sandsmark or Hippolyta.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I think Steve being unremarkable is part of the point. He is a guy who is not afraid at all of having a girlfriend that's stronger and more powerful than him and Diana, the literal demi-Goddess/perfect woman, falls in love with him.
    That sounds like a disservice to both of their characters, but specially to Diana, who falls in love with this guy 'cause, uh, he's not afraid of her I guess? Get standards...

    Which is why stuff like this is hilarious:




    It can fall flat on the page but it works on screen when you have someone like Chris Pine playing him.
    If it's something with goofy comedy like this, then it works alright (Even if I don't really care for this kind of humor), otherwise if there's any seriousness to their relationship, it's just lazily developed.

    The problem is, it's hard to give him a role after Diana falls in love with him, leaves the island and defeats the Big Bad.
    In other words, he's so poorly developed that there's no actual chemistry between 'em, so it's like those poorly written romantic stories with characters who should not be together and all that they have is ship teasing, yeah, how great...

    Thinking of it, this could be interpreted as just a first love thing, but that's not how it's interpreted lol.

    Also tbh, Diana/Steve are kind of boring as a battle couple. I would much rather see Diana being a duo being Artemis, Zatanna, Deadman, Batman, Donna Troy, Cassie Sandsmark or Hippolyta.
    I thought you were listing other characters she's better as a battle couple at first, and I got increasingly weirded out when names like "Donna", "Cassie", and specially, "Hippolyta", were mentioned lol.

    Also, Deadman? That sounds like a pretty weird team-up, but not bad weird, any issues where that happens?

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Also, Deadman? That sounds like a pretty weird team-up, but not bad weird, any issues where that happens?
    The current WW run has Deadman as her co-lead. It's pretty good.

    I'll address the other parts of your reply later.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    The current WW run has Deadman as her co-lead. It's pretty good.

    I'll address the other parts of your reply later.
    Yup Deadman and Diana has been a terrific combination, and Becky Cloonan/ Michael Conrad totally know how to write them together. I could actually conceive of a small romance between those two, but their friendship has been working really well.

    There are only 3 panels where I think Steve and Diana worked in my opinion. Those 3 panels really create a nice moment. But that's just it, it's nice, nothing more. I don't need tension, I need passion, creativity, fulfillment. Tenderness is nice, but Diana is the most self loving person in the world. She doesn't need someone to warm her. And honestly, there isn't all that much more that Steve can provide. I think they could still have cute and nice moments from time to time, but let her branch out.

    Last edited by Alpha; 12-15-2021 at 06:16 AM.

  10. #25
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    They can write Steve out of her book for all I care, there are far more interesting options around

  11. #26
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    The "heroes" of today are largely just voids for people desires. Most of them want to date other high status heroes or "special" individuals especially since as someone like Wonder Woman or Batman or etc they date whoever they want so most don't want to get bogged down to any one character anyways. They want the fantasy to go on indefinitely. By and large the heores of today view themselves as above the "regular" folk which Steve is considered to be a part of. Tim Drake went through a similar evolution in the 2000's as his writers tried and succeeded in dumping anything that might like Tim to the normal world.


    The heroes of today are very much like Griffith from Berserk. Miura captured the ethos of the modern hero very well, albeit unintentionally in the dynamics of Griffith's personality. Infact the whole bit of him dumping the old Band Hawks and getting a new supped up Band of Hawks pretty much reads like the progression of supporting cast in comics from the old days to today. Probably why no one reads superhero stuff anymore it's both self serious and delusional.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Lois Lane is a woman guided by extreme insecurity she mascarades through intrusiveness and bravado. Her goal in life is to show the hypocrisy and corruption in the world around her. She has a sharp tongue.

    Steve Trevor has none of those things.
    Lois and Steve may be motivated by different fears due to different upbringings (Enneagram), but they both still process information in the same way. They're straight-shooters and shoot from the hip (Se), improvise easily (Se), have a strong preference for their own internal logic (Ti) rather than the thoughts of others, can charm to get what they want (Fe), and search for deeper meanings after the fact (rather than before acting) in order to support their free-wheeling lifestyles (Ni). Steve is just the male Lois. He brings the same things to storytelling as she does, but can be brought into action scenes more. And yet he's dismissed as not good enough, while Lois is kept around. That definitely has to do with power dynamics and expectations when it comes to dating, gender identity, and social pressures. Those are the only real variables. If Lois didn't grow up as a military brat, she could've easily been the type to do what Steve does. Also just realized that Max from Stranger things has the same personality type, and I see how Lois could've been like her when she was little.

    Diana and Clark both prefer to make decisions around preserving harmony/peace and making people feel cared for (Fe) and find ways to do that by following their own internal logic (Ti). Clark can be more cynical than Diana because he values critical/dispassionate thought (Ti) more than she does, and she is more prone to idealizing people than he is (Fe dom, Ni Parent). But Diana is also more adventurous and willing to get out of her comfort zone (Ni) than Clark, who generally likes to do things the tried-and-true way (Si). Diana can read people better (Ni), but Clark is more detail-oriented (Si). Clark is also more prone to worrying than she is (Ne inferior thinking of all the different ways things can go wrong). Despite their differences, they're both xxFJ types, so their is significant overlap in their approach to choosing a long-term partner. Also, xxFJs tend to prefer committed relationships with a single person (monogamy), not bedhopping or poly. Unlike other types, like say ESFP Hal Jordan, if an xxFJ isn't committing, it's because they have a serious relational trauma, which isn't the case for Diana.

    Again, I'm sure the reasons for why Diana is one of the few characters to not have an OTP change from writer to writer or editor to editor, but I bet views on women, their desirability, and the role they're "supposed" to play are the likely the most common ones. A lot of male readers don't want much from her besides being desirable, which is why her costume and so much of her art was centered on her bum. Glad the movies forced DC to update her costume to Greek warrior garb despite protests.
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 12-15-2021 at 08:58 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    Lois and Steve may be motivated by different fears due to different upbringings (Enneagram), but they both still process information in the same way. They're straight-shooters and shoot from the hip (Se), improvise easily (Se), have a strong preference for their own internal logic (Ti) rather than the thoughts of others, can charm to get what they want (Fe), and search for deeper meanings after the fact (rather than before acting) in order to support their free-wheeling lifestyles (Ni). Steve is just the male Lois. He brings the same things to storytelling as she does, but can be brought into action scenes more. And yet he's dismissed as not good enough, while Lois is kept around. That definitely has to do with power dynamics and expectations when it comes to dating, gender identity, and social pressures. Those are the only real variables. If Lois didn't grow up as a military brat, she could've easily been the type to do what Steve does. Also just realized that Max from Stranger things has the same personality type, and I see how Lois could've been like her when she was little.
    How is Steve Trevor any of these things in the comics? And I think those aspects of Lois you are highlighting are a rather small part of what attracts Clark. Otherwise Cat Grant would probably be a much better pairing than she actually is.

    Diana and Clark both prefer to make decisions around preserving harmony/peace
    I don't really think that's true. The 90s, Marston and Gail Simone version of Diana likes to challenge people. She is an agitador constantly trying to turn people into their greatest selves. The Perez version of Diana meanwhile is more of a pacifier, I can admit that. You would also notice that the "pacifier" version of Diana was also the version that aged up Steve Trevor because he wasn't useful as a love interest.

    and making people feel cared for (Fe) and find ways to do that by following their own internal logic (Ti). Clark can be more cynical than Diana because he values critical/dispassionate thought (Ti) more than she does, and she is more prone to idealizing people than he is (Fe dom, Ni Parent). But Diana is also more adventurous and willing to get out of her comfort zone (Ni) than Clark, who generally likes to do things the tried-and-true way (Si). Diana can read people better (Ni), but Clark is more detail-oriented (Si). Clark is also more prone to worrying than she is (Ne inferior thinking of all the different ways things can go wrong). Despite their differences, they're both xFxJ types, so their is significant overlap in their approach to choosing a long-term partner.
    all of that is definitely true, and I don't see how it clarifies why they would search for the same kind of partners. Clark Kent ultimately wants a calm inner life to contrast with the challenges he faces out there in the world. Which makes total sense in combination with Lois Lane since she also wants a partner that makes her feel secure, and yet increases her desire to be even more forceful with the world.

    Meanwhile Diana seeks no such inner calm in her life. She wants people to be cared for, but she has no trouble moving around all the time. It's why I don't think she could ever be happy retiring on Themyscira, she would much rather die looking at the transformation of a world far beyond her in the stars.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    The current WW run has Deadman as her co-lead. It's pretty good.

    I'll address the other parts of your reply later.
    Ah, I assume he was the guy talking with Diana at the beginning of that Asgard arc? Only read the first issue, seemed alright, but I wasn't really checking comics at the time so I forgot about it... Should check it out, still wondering if there's gonna be a Kratos cameo there .

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    All of Diana's love interests will run into the ... I guess personal possible hurdle but narrative sequential comic storytelling non-hurdle ... of the fact Diana's metatextually and probably diagetically polyamorous. Steve might bear the distinction of "first man she met x first man she loved" but writers have to do good work juggling the balance between it seeming like he constantly just pines and worries about Diana from that place versus being her friend and ally and worrying because his love for her, personal or not, is more unconditional.

    If it's the case that his concern and then the fact that whenever they get to hang out they do get romantic, if played as that unconditional dudely best friend and recurring lover in a pantheon of lovers notion, it kind of makes him like the most self-secure, or "least insecure" straight guy in the entire DCU. I think that's probably the smartest option and something that distinguishes Steve and "what's so special or different about Steve?" from various other romantic civilian foils like his closest 'colleague characters' like Lois Lane or Iris West. And it's also kind of a neat notion to have that in a guy who is otherwise ostensibly a properly Action Hero Military Manly Man archetype. Otherwise a writer is going to default to writing him as not only a gender-swapped damsel but simultaneously some kind of whiny cuck the whole time, and he will feel like a constantly disrespected character ... you know, like any of Batman's civilian girlfriends or Dick Grayson's string of overlapping superhero lovers.

    Other than the romantic involvement or friendship with Wonder Woman, though, I feel like he's generally underutilized in the sense of being a G.I. JOE type character walking around in the DCU with a fair dose of plot armor. Like, this is a Destiny-Fated Military Man whose girlfriend is a Peace Warrior and who, a U.S. Military Warrior, counts ARES THE GOD OF WAR as his mortal enemy. What a prime example of a cool masculine role model with that like equal measure mix of 'soft masculinity' and hard-ass bad-assery. An ultimate warrior who hates war. He could be the DCU's Aragorn.
    I completely agree with you on this. I can't see Diana as anything other than polyamorous. Steve can be a great strong, military man that deals with weird crap ala ARGUS and gods/sci-fi/magic stuff and is always sort of in Diana's circle as a friend and confidant and occasional lover. I believe they love each other but he understands that Diana is poly and doesn't interfere with that. That'd be so different and nice to see in a mainstream superhero comic.

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