Batman/Superman: World’s Finest by Mark Waid and Dan Mora

[Venomized-spider-man]

Dr Doom is delivering presents?

It's Grant Morrison Klaus the trilogy-ish that was all drawn by Dan Mora

[Ascended]

Dr Doom is delivering presents?

That's the award winning (Santa) Klaus from BOOM Studios. Grant Morrison and Dan Mora.

If Morrison has written anything better than All-Star, it's Klaus. I'll probably catch hell for saying this but Klaus just might be Morrison's best work.

Six issue mini re-telling Santa's origin in ancient Germania/Slavic lands (I forget where exactly it unfolds) using the original, old world folk lore dressed up with superhero trappings. Then a few one-shots, each a stand-alone story set somewhere across Klaus' long life. You'll see him save a town from the demonic Krampus, use charity and an amnesia-riddled snowman to defeat the alien, viking-killing hordes of Surtur, and go to war with a soda company over the soul of christmas. Among many other, cooler things.

Sorry, I know someone else already explained what the image is, but I can't pass up an opportunity to sing Klaus' praises and recommend it to any poor sodden soul who has yet to experience the glory, warmth, and joy that is Klaus.

[Kevin Street]

I really like this story, both this issue and "Strange Visitor" as a whole. David feels like a very realistic and strangely sympathetic character. Even knowing what he later becomes (great twist, by the way) it's still hard to feel like he did anything wrong. If Joker tortured me I'd want to burn his arms off too. In a previous issue Superman said "We don't punch down. Ever." And he's right, of course. They shouldn't use their enormous power to brutalize criminals who can't effectively fight back. But is this really punching down? Because of Joker's diabolical ability to escape from just about any place that tries to hold him, it could be argued that burning Joker and forcing him to stay in one place while he heals is saving the lives of any citizens he may have killed when he made an immediate escape. While he's in the burn ward people get to go on living their lives.

But that's not why David did it. He burned Joker purely for revenge, and there lies the problem.

Less legacy heroes, more sidekicks. Clark took in Magog the same way Bruce took in Dick, and for the same reasons namely that he saw himself in the kid. But Clark was not able to give Magog the help he needed the way Bruce did for Dick, because Bruce made sure Dick got to take down the man who killed his parents. Dick got catharsis but David’s problems aren’t something Superman could provide a resolution for. Even though on the surface Magog seems like the perfect sidekick for Superman - they have the same origins, similar power sets - ultimately being a hero provided an outlet for Magog’s worst instincts instead of his best. Of course Joker entering the picture made sure it all ended as badly as it possibly could.

I'm not sure it had to end badly, though. Joker effectively created Magog by traumatizing an already grieving David, but if that hadn't happened David may have found a measure of peace by becoming a superhero and being Superman's friend the way Robin is Batman's. You're right that Superman can't provide a catharsis for David the way Batman helped Dick bring his parent's killer to justice. David is suffering from survivor's guilt because he thinks he killed his parents, and that doesn't just go away. It's a wound that only fades with time as the wounded person comes to accept they really weren't at fault. I think being Superman's sidekick could have given David a great deal of satisfaction from helping others and earning Superman's approval. Eventually he could have gotten past the guilt.

[manwhohaseverything]

But that's not why David did it. He burned Joker purely for revenge, and there lies the problem.

Intent of magog makes his intent personal.but,his actions and the outcome of the action can end up being otherwise.And there is no reason to believe or evidence to suggest that "bad" intent leads to "bad" outcome always.While "good" intent leads to "good" outcome.There is no guarantee of it.Batman is a product of vengeance as well.The so called "bad" like fear, vengeance,anger..etc are powerful impulses of the human spirit.

[Vordan]

I really like this story, both this issue and "Strange Visitor" as a whole. David feels like a very realistic and strangely sympathetic character. Even knowing what he later becomes (great twist, by the way) it's still hard to feel like he did anything wrong. If Joker tortured me I'd want to burn his arms off too. In a previous issue Superman said "We don't punch down. Ever." And he's right, of course. They shouldn't use their enormous power to brutalize criminals who can't effectively fight back. But is this really punching down? Because of Joker's diabolical ability to escape from just about any place that tries to hold him, it could be argued that burning Joker and forcing him to stay in one place while he heals is saving the lives of any citizens he may have killed when he made an immediate escape. While he's in the burn ward people get to go on living their lives.

But that's not why David did it. He burned Joker purely for revenge, and there lies the problem.



I'm not sure it had to end badly, though. Joker effectively created Magog by traumatizing an already grieving David, but if that hadn't happened David may have found a measure of peace by becoming a superhero and being Superman's friend the way Robin is Batman's. You're right that Superman can't provide a catharsis for David the way Batman helped Dick bring his parent's killer to justice. David is suffering from survivor's guilt because he thinks he killed his parents, and that doesn't just go away. It's a wound that only fades with time as the wounded person comes to accept they really weren't at fault. I think being Superman's sidekick could have given David a great deal of satisfaction from helping others and earning Superman's approval. Eventually he could have gotten past the guilt.

You’re right that it didn’t have to end badly, Joker is the one who made sure it did, but Clark was not doing a great job mentoring. When he saw David lash out in anger with his powers against the pirates in issue 9, he should have sat David down and asked him what was going on internally. Instead he jumped right to lecturing David in front of his friends (something Dick had to tell him not to do). Perhaps with time Clark could have improved his mentoring skills and David could have healed from his trauma. Didn’t turn out that way unfortunately.

[Kevin Street]

Intent of magog makes his intent personal.but,his actions and the outcome of the action can end up being otherwise.And there is no reason to believe or evidence to suggest that "bad" intent leads to "bad" outcome always.While "good" intent leads to "good" outcome.There is no guarantee of it.Batman is a product of vengeance as well.The so called "bad" like fear, vengeance,anger..etc are powerful impulses of the human spirit.

Very powerful impulses, yes. But while bad intent can lead to a good outcome, is it good for the person doing it? Or to put it another way, does vengeance ever make anyone better? When we're hurt we want to hurt that person back, and that can lead to a sense of regaining our personal power. (Now we have power over them.) But that doesn't make the hurt, or the the memory of the painful experience go away. It just teaches us to hate.

Batman is a strange edge case. He's a product of vengeance, it's true. As a child he made that vow "And I swear by the spirits of my parents to avenge their deaths by spending the rest of my life warring on all criminals." And he's done his best to live by that childhood vow even if it means he can never have a normal life. But I think he's too smart to stick with the emotions he felt as a child. As he grew up, Bruce Wayne realized that he didn't want to hurt criminals, what he really wanted was to stop them from hurting anyone else. His "vengeance" comes from frustrating the criminals and saving their victims. And maybe a little bit by making them fear him. Now he has the power.

You’re right that it didn’t have to end badly, Joker is the one who made sure it did, but Clark was not doing a great job mentoring. When he saw David lash out in anger with his powers against the pirates in issue 9, he should have sat David down and asked him what was going on internally. Instead he jumped right to lecturing David in front of his friends (something Dick had to tell him not to do). Perhaps with time Clark could have improved his mentoring skills and David could have healed from his trauma. Didn’t turn out that way unfortunately.

That could be. I see your point.

[Mantis-Ray]

You’re right that it didn’t have to end badly, Joker is the one who made sure it did, but Clark was not doing a great job mentoring. When he saw David lash out in anger with his powers against the pirates in issue 9, he should have sat David down and asked him what was going on internally. Instead he jumped right to lecturing David in front of his friends (something Dick had to tell him not to do). Perhaps with time Clark could have improved his mentoring skills and David could have healed from his trauma. Didn’t turn out that way unfortunately.

The tragedy of David really. Had he been given more time, he and Superman probably would have eventually had that talk, and David would have been on the road to healing.

But Joker struck at the worst possible time and set David on a road to no recovery.

[Ascended]

You’re right that it didn’t have to end badly, Joker is the one who made sure it did, but Clark was not doing a great job mentoring. When he saw David lash out in anger with his powers against the pirates in issue 9, he should have sat David down and asked him what was going on internally. Instead he jumped right to lecturing David in front of his friends (something Dick had to tell him not to do). Perhaps with time Clark could have improved his mentoring skills and David could have healed from his trauma. Didn’t turn out that way unfortunately.

Haven't got my hands on the issue yet (stupid holiday chaos) but personally I'm thrilled. Clark Kent is a bad father and mentor. From Mon-El to Kara to Conner, Clark was never good with family, never good with being a teacher to a young hero. It is not in his character to gravitate to such relationships easily. He only became Father of the Year when Tomasi decided to ignore eighty years of history so Jon could exist without spending his whole life in therapy.

Gotta hand it to Waid for remembering who Clark really is, rather than what people think he is when they're blinded by his larger-than-life legend.

[SuperX]

It could take David years to actually get to the point where he actually kills someone,he could slowly move toward it for years,as a hero

[Mantis-Ray]

Haven't got my hands on the issue yet (stupid holiday chaos) but personally I'm thrilled. Clark Kent is a bad father and mentor. From Mon-El to Kara to Conner, Clark was never good with family, never good with being a teacher to a young hero. It is not in his character to gravitate to such relationships easily. He only became Father of the Year when Tomasi decided to ignore eighty years of history so Jon could exist without spending his whole life in therapy.

Gotta hand it to Waid for remembering who Clark really is, rather than what people think he is when they're blinded by his larger-than-life legend.

Can't the guy improve at being a parental figure and mentor?

Its not like Bruce is the best or most supportive father despite wanting to have a family.

[Vordan]

Can't the guy improve at being a parental figure and mentor?

Its not like Bruce is the best or most supportive father despite wanting to have a family.

He can but I’m with Ascended in that historically he has been a lousy mentor and it should not be easy to him. There’s some delicious irony in that the guy you think would be a great mentor actually sucks at it despite being great at pretty much everything else. My personal take is that Jon is the one time he gets it right, both because he makes sure to remember where he failed with Kara, Kon, etc, and also because he has a co-mentor to help him: Lois. Lois is the one who compensated for Clark’s failures as a mentor and her involvement is what helps Clark succeed with Jon where he failed with the rest.

That’s how it should be in my ideal headcanon anyway, but practically speaking Rebirth, like Ascended said, just made Clark into a perfect father figure and mentor.

[Frontier]

Well, they seem to have officially brought back the orphanage backstory for Kara so it's kind of hard to walk back from that.

[SuperX]

He can but I’m with Ascended in that historically he has been a lousy mentor and it should not be easy to him. There’s some delicious irony in that the guy you think would be a great mentor actually sucks at it despite being great at pretty much everything else. My personal take is that Jon is the one time he gets it right, both because he makes sure to remember where he failed with Kara, Kon, etc, and also because he has a co-mentor to help him: Lois. Lois is the one who compensated for Clark’s failures as a mentor and her involvement is what helps Clark succeed with Jon where he failed with the rest.

That’s how it should be in my ideal headcanon anyway, but practically speaking Rebirth, like Ascended said, just made Clark into a perfect father figure and mentor.

He didn't get it right the one time Jon needed him to get it right for him.

He didn't fail kon,he wasn't even a factor,he was a non issue,he was not a parental anything on any level period,all he was,was a role model kon looked up to amd wanted to be like.

[Kevin Street]

Well, they seem to have officially brought back the orphanage backstory for Kara so it's kind of hard to walk back from that.

Trying to explain Supergirl's Silver Age status quo through the lens of modern characterization is just baffling. She arrived on Earth in a rocket and announced herself to Kal El. Then he put her in an orphanage and made her his "secret weapon" until she was experienced enough at super heroing for him to announce her existence to the world. In that time, which must have been at least a year or two for her, she wore a wig and maintained a secret identity as Linda Lee, and actively avoided adoption until Superman said she was ready to debut! She didn't even know Kal El was Clark Kent. I remember reading a story from that time where Superman got her out of the orphanage by making fake robot parents adopt her. When the mission was done, the fake parents drove into a lake or something and Linda Lee went back to the orphanage.

It's just... madness. If you want to look at it even slightly realistically, she must have had massive PTSD from the destruction of Krypton, and then the long, slow death of Argo City. Making her pretend to be a human girl all the time and only bringing her out for secret missions would not be an ideal mentorship scheme on Kal's part. Throw in fake robot parents and I don't even know.

[Mantis-Ray]

Trying to explain Supergirl's Silver Age status quo through the lens of modern characterization is just baffling. She arrived on Earth in a rocket and announced herself to Kal El. Then he put her in an orphanage and made her his "secret weapon" until she was experienced enough at super heroing for him to announce her existence to the world. In that time, which must have been at least a year or two for her, she wore a wig and maintained a secret identity as Linda Lee, and actively avoided adoption until Superman said she was ready to debut! She didn't even know Kal El was Clark Kent. I remember reading a story from that time where Superman got her out of the orphanage by making fake robot parents adopt her. When the mission was done, the fake parents drove into a lake or something and Linda Lee went back to the orphanage.

It's just... madness. If you want to look at it even slightly realistically, she must have had massive PTSD from the destruction of Krypton, and then the long, slow death of Argo City. Making her pretend to be a human girl all the time and only bringing her out for secret missions would not be an ideal mentorship scheme on Kal's part. Throw in fake robot parents and I don't even know.

I feel like you really shouldn't be taking that line seriously.

Its clearly a joke, otherwise Clark and Kara's relationship should be way more tense.