Batman/Superman: World’s Finest by Mark Waid and Dan Mora

[Ra-El]

Morrison did it. 4 times actually. And Morrison is a much bigger and much more celebrated named in comics.

Morrison did two seasons of GL plus Black Stars, and he did Superman & The Authority. They did the GL books specifically as swan songs to Hal in prep for 5G, and giving room for the new GL take. And they did Superman 7 The Authority as a proper 5G book with clearly a Superman who wasn't in the classic set up. And both books were deliberately critical of the the past generation.

As a writer Waid certainly doesn't have to play ball, no. No one will force either. But the fact that one of his peers stuck it out for three times as long as they were intending to stay in superhero comics just to play ball even with versions of the characters that weren't his ideal (older Clark) or characters that they didn't really care for (Hal) then doing the retro set in the past book looks some kind of way.

Yes. This is exactly what I mean, Didio went to Morrison and pitched a GL book starring Hal Jordan, and they accepted, Didio also went to Morrison and pitched a Superman and The Authority book and they accepted it too. Morrison was sold on the idea of writing the books, but did in the way they wanted to do it, The Green Lantern started as a policial procedural in space and became a examination of Hal's character history and DC comics as a whole. Superman and The Authority was supposed to be Clark starting to go more authoritarian and end up as something different.

In both cases the initial idea already existed, and would possibly happen anyway, we know S&TA would, Morrison only took the job and put their very particular spin on it. Its what I believe happened with Waid, editorial more than likely offered him a comic they would do anyway, he accepted and is putting his own spin on it. The same way Morrison took a GL book starring Hal and chose what to do with it, Waid took a Batman/Superman book starring Bruce and Clark and is choosing what to do with it.

[DABellWrites]

I'm probably a minority in this, but I'm excited Waid is actually doing Superman as a single guy where Lois Lane doesn't know his identity. I know folks prefer Superman right now, married and as a father, but I think that's some interesting territory to explore. How many mainline stories are there that explores this period in Superman's life? Aside from John Byrne.

[manwhohaseverything]

"Waid told his editor to make sure this doesn’t end up being the “retro book” he wants this to be contemporary and not mired in nostalgia"

Now, I know you found this statement humorous but I took it at face-value coming from Waid.

Giving robin pants or a mobile would just be superfical.This is a world's finest book.I find nothing wrong with that.Saying this contemporary is the point of contention.

I'm probably a minority in this, but I'm excited Waid is actually doing Superman as a single guy where Lois Lane doesn't know his identity. I know folks prefer Superman right now, married and as a father, but I think that's some interesting territory to explore. How many mainline stories are there that explores this period in Superman's life? Aside from John Byrne.

i find this wierd,like most of the guy's existence past 80 years.

[HsssH]

It is true that Waid doing this book doesn't really harm Superman or Action books, but at the same time its not like DC can publish infinite amount of books each month. Maybe if DC wants their new properties (and status quo) to actually catch on and work they should focus their resources on that instead?

Was team book with new Batman and Superman likely? Probably not, but its not like Bruce and Clark can't set up things for new guys. For example, while Yang focused on "classic" Bruce and Clark versions in his run he still built up a new plot device that will likely be used in his upcoming Monkey Prince series. But this book, from my understanding, is not going to "matter" or build up to something because it is done specifically for Waid to play around in his own "perfect" DC version.

I didn't like initial 5G plans, but I'm not liking this current "direction" either.

For God's sake, the alternative to Damian becoming DC's Doctor Doom is...him becoming the best puncher that's ever punched? Like, what? And Williamson is just taking a giant grown man dump on everything Morrison and the multiverse while also being oddly offensive while doing it?

Thank you, this sums up my thoughts about Williamson perfectly.

[Superlad93]

It is true that Waid doing this book doesn't really harm Superman or Action books, but at the same time its not like DC can publish infinite amount of books each month. Maybe if DC wants their new properties (and status quo) to actually catch on and work they should focus their resources on that instead?

Was team book with new Batman and Superman likely? Probably not, but its not like Bruce and Clark can't set up things for new guys. For example, while Yang focused on "classic" Bruce and Clark versions in his run he still built up a new plot device that will likely be used in his upcoming Monkey Prince series. But this book, from my understanding, is not going to "matter" or build up to something because it is done specifically for Waid to play around in his own "perfect" DC version.

I didn't like initial 5G plans, but I'm not liking this current "direction" either.

HEY! You stop that right this instant! You stop making reasonable sense even while not fully agreeing with what the direction could've been.

But yeah, it kind of baffles me. They want these new characters and directions to catch on and be viable...but then they're totally kneecapping them at the start and not pushing them beyond just their singular books?

And this current direction without the timeline is maybe the most confused I've seen readers about what "counts" since Rebirth. They were literally going to fix things so that confusion would be willful ignorance rather than the general and reasonable feeling, but that's out the window now.

You get a handful of fun or generally inoffensive books right now, but it's all with diminishing returns overall in my opinion. This eating candy or drinking coffee for energy rather than fixing you sleep and eating well in general.

[Yoda]

I'm probably a minority in this, but I'm excited Waid is actually doing Superman as a single guy where Lois Lane doesn't know his identity. I know folks prefer Superman right now, married and as a father, but I think that's some interesting territory to explore. How many mainline stories are there that explores this period in Superman's life? Aside from John Byrne.

I don't think this is the book that's going to do it, nor do I think Waid would be one to do it well, but I agree that that is an area that is due for an update. Superman & Lois knocked it out of the park with an update on this period and the triangle in particular but barely scratched the surface of it with their flashback episode. A modern take on all that would be welcome. The Bryne and early triangle years are pushing 40 years old at this point. It's out of date and the writing is dated.

It is true that Waid doing this book doesn't really harm Superman or Action books, but at the same time its not like DC can publish infinite amount of books each month. Maybe if DC wants their new properties (and status quo) to actually catch on and work they should focus their resources on that instead?

There can be some harm done I think. It reinforces the idea that only these nostalgia based takes rooted in the past - and all that entails - are the only books that sell. It's odd too coming from Waid given his issues with the CG crowd. He likely distinguishes his take because he'll "modernize" it somehow, ham-handly potentially what he did with Champions, but that'll distinguish it to him and some.

[Frontier]

I don't think this is the book that's going to do it, nor do I think Waid would be one to do it well, but I agree that that is an area that is due for an update. Superman & Lois knocked it out of the park with an update on this period and the triangle in particular but barely scratched the surface of it with their flashback episode. A modern take on all that would be welcome. The Bryne and early triangle years are pushing 40 years old at this point. It's out of date and the writing is dated.

There can be some harm done I think. It reinforces the idea that only these nostalgia based takes rooted in the past - and all that entails - are the only books that sell. It's odd too coming from Waid given his issues with the CG crowd. He likely distinguishes his take because he'll "modernize" it somehow, ham-handly potentially what he did with Champions, but that'll distinguish it to him and some.

I think this is more going to be in-line with his Avengers run than his Champions run.

Of course I'm of the opinion that an enjoyable, well-written, Batman/Superman story with Clark and Bruce can't be a bad thing even if it's in the vein of a classic-style World's Finest book.

[Morgoth]

There's nothing bad in giving Waid an opportunity to write what he wants, especially if there's an audience for that, there are a lot of people who can't stand current status-quo. It's not like there was some Jon/Jace book, which was canned in favor of this series anyway.

[Vordan]

I think this is more going to be in-line with his Avengers run than his Champions run.

Of course I'm of the opinion that an enjoyable, well-written, Batman/Superman story with Clark and Bruce can't be a bad thing even if it's in the vein of a classic-style World's Finest book.

God I hope not his Avengers run sucked. Best outcome of Waid doing a “contemporary” run in a “classic” status quo would be something in the vein of his Daredevil or Dr. Strange runs. Those were good and feel like accurate analogs to what he’s going for here.

[DochaDocha]

I'm probably a minority in this, but I'm excited Waid is actually doing Superman as a single guy where Lois Lane doesn't know his identity. I know folks prefer Superman right now, married and as a father, but I think that's some interesting territory to explore. How many mainline stories are there that explores this period in Superman's life? Aside from John Byrne.

If you're in the minority, at least there's a club.

I probably should've saved this for the controversial opinions thread, but I think the whole triangle-for-two was one of the many little things that made Superman charming to audiences. The problem with triangle-for-two is that it will eventually get tedious, so you have to move on at some point for long-time readers. And of course marriage and family has a lot of value for a lot of people, but I think if it were introduced too early in Superman's comic history, the franchise wouldn't have resonated as well with readers (who were largely young boys who were aging out of comics and being replaced by younger boys). But I suppose the real issue is that new readers these days are only introduced to married Superman, and now Superdad, and can't read many new issues that explore the triangle-for-two in any real depth. It's all in the character's history.

[DABellWrites]

Giving robin pants or a mobile would just be superfical.This is a world's finest book.I find nothing wrong with that.Saying this contemporary is the point of contention.


i find this wierd,like most of the guy's existence past 80 years.

More post-crisis Superman mainline stories. Nobody really explore that period that much.

[Frontier]

God I hope not his Avengers run sucked. Best outcome of Waid doing a “contemporary” run in a “classic” status quo would be something in the vein of his Daredevil or Dr. Strange runs. Those were good and feel like accurate analogs to what he’s going for here.

I think his Avengers run was ham-strung by the status quo and events Waid was saddled with at the time. I've read worse runs (and you could at least tell Waid cared about the Avengers compared to, say, Hickman).

But quality-wise I'm definitely hoping for something in the vein of his DD run.

[Vordan]

If you're in the minority, at least there's a club.

I probably should've saved this for the controversial opinions thread, but I think the whole triangle-for-two was one of the many little things that made Superman charming to audiences. The problem with triangle-for-two is that it will eventually get tedious, so you have to move on at some point for long-time readers. And of course marriage and family has a lot of value for a lot of people, but I think if it were introduced too early in Superman's comic history, the franchise wouldn't have resonated as well with readers (who were largely young boys who were aging out of comics and being replaced by younger boys). But I suppose the real issue is that new readers these days are only introduced to married Superman, and now Superdad, and can't read many new issues that explore the triangle-for-two in any real depth. It's all in the character's history.

Problem with the triangle is
1. We’ve already seen the end of it, Clark and Lois get married. There was tension and excitement when we didn’t know if they would ever actually tie the knot, but now after we do know they will it just feels like pointless teasing
2. All the lying Clark does in the relationship makes him look bad and writers don’t like to take Clark to task for it. Usually he just gets let off the hook which isn’t very satisfying

Personally I’m fine with a triangle where it’s Clark competing with someone else - not himself as Superman - to win Lois or Lois competing with another female LI - not Diana - for Clark.

[DochaDocha]

Problem with the triangle is
1. We’ve already seen the end of it, Clark and Lois get married. There was tension and excitement when we didn’t know if they would ever actually tie the knot, but now after we do know they will it just feels like pointless teasing
2. All the lying Clark does in the relationship makes him look bad and writers don’t like to take Clark to task for it. Usually he just gets let off the hook which isn’t very satisfying

Personally I’m fine with a triangle where it’s Clark competing with someone else - himself as Superman - to win Lois or Lois competing with another female LI - not Diana - for Clark.

There are issues with both the triangle and trying to go back to a triangle status quo, so much that I don't have any good recommendations on how to restore that paradigm. Yet, we have a pretty good sample size of both when Lois was in on the secret and when she wasn't, and overall I think overall the stories where she didn't know are a little more interesting. So from my perspective, new readers today are missing out on the "better" stories. You can try to capture that in other media, but I think the only ones in recent years that went there were Justice League Action, which isn't a particularly dramatic version of Superman, and the movie Man of Tomorrow.

[Vordan]

There are issues with both the triangle and trying to go back to a triangle status quo, so much that I don't have any good recommendations on how to restore that paradigm. Yet, we have a pretty good sample size of both when Lois was in on the secret and when she wasn't, and overall I think overall the stories where she didn't know are a little more interesting. So from my perspective, new readers today are missing out on the "better" stories. You can try to capture that in other media, but I think the only ones in recent years that went there were Justice League Action, which isn't a particularly dramatic version of Superman, and the movie Man of Tomorrow.

Lois not knowing his secret can still make for interesting stories, just don’t think there’s much left to mine in terms of Clark competing with himself for Lois affections. Maybe you could do a reverse of the story we got? Instead of Clark telling Lois he’s Superman after they’ve dated a while, you have Superman tell her he’s Clark after Superman and Lois have dated a while?