Do you consider Kindred a hit or a miss?

[exile001]

I think it's 50/50.

It was definitely a hit in that we were all talking about Kindred for a few years and it increased interest in the books. It probably helped sales in the long run, as the story supported several extra issues.

However, it as a miss conceptually for me as I was tired of the breaking the forth wall and doing nothing schitck before Hunted and the non-threat of his... saving(?) MJ there really soured me. My interest was definitely back up for 'Last Remains' but that also meandered and ultimately did nothing. By the end I just wanted it to be over but was pleasantly surprised by all the clone bollox and the retconning of Sins Past.

I have been picking up the tpbs for the run and will be interested to revisit the whole thing in a year or two to see how it holds up without the incredible weight (and excitement) of expectation.

[Reilly]

I forgot he even existed. It's a miss for me.

[Ursalink]

It is a hit, but honestly, they could have do it better. I mean, with all the crazy stuff that happened, even the Sinister War, I wasn't able to enjoyed because I wasn't able to understand what the Heck was going on until the very end.

[Lukmendes]

It retconned Sins Past.

So hit.

I think it's 50/50.

It was definitely a hit in that we were all talking about Kindred for a few years and it increased interest in the books. It probably helped sales in the long run, as the story supported several extra issues.

However, it as a miss conceptually for me as I was tired of the breaking the forth wall and doing nothing schitck before Hunted and the non-threat of his... saving(?) MJ there really soured me. My interest was definitely back up for 'Last Remains' but that also meandered and ultimately did nothing. By the end I just wanted it to be over but was pleasantly surprised by all the clone bollox and the retconning of Sins Past.

Right, it retconned away Sins Past, somehow I forgot this... I guess that is the one "hit" Kindred got lol.

I have been picking up the tpbs for the run and will be interested to revisit the whole thing in a year or two to see how it holds up without the incredible weight (and excitement) of expectation.

I have re-read Spencer's ASM at times, without the expectation, Kindred shows up once in a while, has a cool issue in ASM#24, and thematically he was used well in the Absolute Carnage tie-in, but after that, his presence could really drag down the quality of the stories.

I can at least say Last Remains is more tolerable this way, the bad pacing is less noticeable (You can still notice that the story slow downs a lot once Spidey actually meets Kindred, but again, less noticeable), but the .LR issues are still whatever (Julia has that cool moment though), and the way it ends is, eh...

[Jekyll]

Much like the entire run, a HUGE miss!

[MisterC]

A miss.

To expand: Kindred was a nothing character. His/Its/Their entire character arc was predicated on their secret identity. Which turned out to be an endless babbling of bullshit. Kindred is one of those characters you have sigh before explaining like "Sigh....I guess the evil AI Copy of Green Goblin's son made these clones that pretended to Norman and Gwen's kids because the AI hypnotized people to think they slept together and they decided to wear rags and make robot centipedes and scream about confessing for 80 issues before turning into goop which saved Harry Osborn's soul"

Its nice that Sins Past was reconned. But it's such a bad story that spending 80+ issues telling a story to undo it is dumb. One panel "Oh Norman and Gwen didn't have sex" and boom. We can go back to bit mentioning it cause it was stupid then, is stupid now, and will always have been stupid.

[Spidey5640]

While I appreciate it reconning the awful Sin Past, it was a huge miss in every other respect.

[exile001]

Its nice that Sins Past was reconned. But it's such a bad story that spending 80+ issues telling a story to undo it is dumb. One panel "Oh Norman and Gwen didn't have sex" and boom. We can go back to bit mentioning it cause it was stupid then, is stupid now, and will always have been stupid.

Right? They could have just had Jackal off-handedly mention it next time he shows up in a list of bizarre shit he's done. "Oh, they were clones of you and Gwen. I added one of my wacky hypnotic suggestions into MJ and Norman. Did you never question why Gabriel looked exactly like you and not Norman? I thought it'd be funny. It really pissed a lot of people off."

[Mister Mets]

A miss.

Good lord, what a miss.

The story was way too padded, with the central Sins Rising/ Last Remains story taking 20+ issues.

And then it turns out Kindred isn't Harry Osborn after all in a rushed three issue finale that brings up obscure characters who had barely been mentioned earlier in the run.

It makes sense to retcon Sins Past, but it was a big mistake to tie it all into One More Day. Why bring back such a reviled story?

And then they go and kill off Harry again. What exactly is the purpose there? How does that make for better comics going forward? Because it was so rushed, it certainly didn't make for a good comic at the time.

[marhawkman]

It's a miss. Despite reporting to the contrary, I'm quite certain that Spencer had a different plan, and I think the plan he intended to execute would have made Kindred worthwhile. However, it seems pretty clear to me that editorial wasn't on board with either Spencer's original plan or the compromised finale we got (hence Beyond being planned specifically to ignore most of Spencer's run). On the plus side, I think the finale was sufficiently conclusory in a way that means it can be ignored from here on out - we never have to talk about Sins Past, the Stacy twins, or Kindred ever again if we don't want to. Harry, Mephisto, and Norman's sins will all come back, but we don't need to dwell on the rest

My problems with it:

A: Mephisto BS. Mephisto ruins almost every story he's ever been in.

B: the Stacy twins were the GOOD part of Sins Past.... this...;-;' Now they're worse than dead. NOPE!!!! That also ruins it.

The story had some interesting ideas in it but... half the story was just.... cringe inducing. It didn't make sins Past better, it doubled down on making it BAD.

[Kanos]

Yes, I really hate this plot. I love Spencer's run, but I hate the Kindred Saga.
1) Kindred are Mephisto who controlled the Norman / Harry AI, who controlled Sarah and Gabriel. They wanted to take revenge on Peter for forgetting about them (lol). But why is Sarah taking revenge on Peter? She was a friend of Peter and Mary Jane.
2) Norman makes a deal with Mephisto. Norman sells Harry's soul in exchange for good luck. All of Norman's victories are now part of the deal.
3) Harry is cursed (literally). Harry had many failures in his life, but now it's not the consequences of the actions of Norman, Peter, Harry himself, it's because of the curse.
So all the visions Harry saw were not hallucinations, but real demons? This makes Harry's story cheaper. And yes, he went to hell after death. His redemption in SSM # 200 was destroyed.
4) BND Harry is a clone. Remember when Peter turned out to be a clone and it ruined the last 10 years of his development? Let's do it again! For some reason, all the characters ignore this. By the way, why did he die for the sins of the original Harry? He did not create these clones. This is silly. I believe that this is the same Harry in a new body (like Billy Connors). Otherwise, Harry's self-sacrifice will be even more pointless and stupid.
5) Harry Osborne, possessed by the devil, brings up two clones, Sarah and Gabriel. It was an act of revenge on Norman because Harry knew he was returning (how did he know? Norman was presumed dead). In this he was helped by Mendel Stromm. Harry considered his father a good man, so he wanted to get revenge on Peter. Why would Harry take revenge on Norman? Harry raised the cloned children and watched them die. Many times. This
disgusting. Harry DeMattheis did bad things, but he didn't kill. And he didn't raise cloned children who were AI vessels.
6) Mendel Stromm was in the grave when Harry was a goblin. Norman pulled him out of the grave. Mendel had a human body when he was Gaunt, he became a cyborg after the clone saga. How could he help Harry? Why was he a cyborg?
7) LR. and the miniseries Sinister War was filler. Boomerang died on one page and everyone forgot about him.
I have written too much, but these are not all the problems of this story.

[Flash Fan #1]

A miss.

Good lord, what a miss.

The story was way too padded, with the central Sins Rising/ Last Remains story taking 20+ issues.

And then it turns out Kindred isn't Harry Osborn after all in a rushed three issue finale that brings up obscure characters who had barely been mentioned earlier in the run.

It makes sense to retcon Sins Past, but it was a big mistake to tie it all into One More Day. Why bring back such a reviled story?

And then they go and kill off Harry again. What exactly is the purpose there? How does that make for better comics going forward? Because it was so rushed, it certainly didn't make for a good comic at the time.

I agree 100%
The ending of Spencer's run had the potential to be great, but all of it was squandered -- clearly -- by editorial. For them to just pull the rug from under him after a mega-ton of issues just wasted everybody's time.