Punisher by Jason Aaron, Jesús Saiz and Paul Azaceta

[Captain Craig]

He'll be getting a new logo:

Remember when The Punisher was an avenging "angel" with spiritual/supernatural weapons?
Remember when The Punisher was essentially Frankenstein?

This to shall pass.

Ugh. I really, REALLY hope that the new symbol is for this story only. It's atrocious.

Has to be. They haven't used him in awhile and are reaching for ideas.
Surrendering an IP because a few thousand folks latch onto a logo for ideas you don't agree with isn't showing a sign of strength. It is weakness.
Own what is yours. I feel this is just them keeping their IP out there, yet changing it a bit for this brief time to "show those folks what for". The irony is those folks don't read comics, I'd wager few know much of anything about Frank and the only folks you're peeving off are the real fanbase who will dole out money monthly for The real Punisher.

[K7P5V]

Remember when The Punisher was an avenging "angel" with spiritual/supernatural weapons?
Remember when The Punisher was essentially Frankenstein?

This to shall pass.

I know, right?! Along with the many times Frank's been disfigured. That didn't last long, either...

Jigsaw Puzzle







The Final Days

[charliehustle415]

You know what I never understood, in Hickman's Secret Wars he's killed on Earth killing all the Earthly villains why wasn't he resurrected as the "Man on the Wall" once the 616 came back?

I mean we had Fury and then Bucky why not have Frank be the killer of aliens trying to destroy the world. Marvel could get away from Frank killing humans and just have him gleefully killing aliens with pew pew guns?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Writers will deconstruction selfless heroes time and time again...

But when it comes time to examine a man who brutally murders people in the middle of a city, constantly uses torture...crickets.

Spider-Man gets entire arcs where he's dragged over the coals for not killing this or that villain, even when death is as much a revolving door as jail.

Yet Castle remains immune. Rather than any meaningful examination, they change his logo.

Way to go, Marvel.

[Agent Z]

Writers will deconstruction selfless heroes time and time again...

But when it comes time to examine a man who brutally murders people in the middle of a city, constantly uses torture...crickets.

Spider-Man gets entire arcs where he's dragged over the coals for not killing this or that villain, even when death is as much a revolving door as jail.

Yet Castle remains immune. Rather than any meaningful examination, they change his logo.

Way to go, Marvel.

How are you still sayimg this in a thread about a Punisher story where he becomes a member of the Hand?

[The Cool Thatguy]

How are you still sayimg this in a thread about a Punisher story where he becomes a member of the Hand?

Because it's written by Jason Aaron, and 'leading ninja cult' isn't the same as 'logical examination of the violence that follows in Castle's wake'

[phonogram12]

Writers will deconstruction selfless heroes time and time again...

But when it comes time to examine a man who brutally murders people in the middle of a city, constantly uses torture...crickets.

Spider-Man gets entire arcs where he's dragged over the coals for not killing this or that villain, even when death is as much a revolving door as jail.

Yet Castle remains immune. Rather than any meaningful examination, they change his logo.

Way to go, Marvel.

I mean, I can't be the first person to think this, but I have a feeling that if they did go ahead and actually do that, they and the readers would be presented even more reasons why this character shouldn't be presented in an even remotely good light. To enjoy this character, I have to side with Ennis - you pretty much have to view it as a Looney Tunes cartoon because once you start taking it anywhere near seriously, you're presented with the monster that he really is. The only difference is that this monster goes after even more monstrous monsters.

[Alan2099]

There have been plenty of times when they've called out the Punisher and plenty of times they've showed what he does isn't right and doesn't always help.

The problem with trying to examine the Punisher is that the Punisher is so emotionally dead that he just doesn't care and if what he does causes trouble, then he's just going to take care of that trouble too. Frank isn't a guy that leaves himself open to introspection too much.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I mean, I can't be the first person to think this, but I have a feeling that if they did go ahead and actually do that, they and the readers would be presented even more reasons why this character shouldn't be presented in an even remotely good light. To enjoy this character, I have to side with Ennis - you pretty much have to view it as a Looney Tunes cartoon because once you start taking it anywhere near seriously, you're presented with the monster that he really is. The only difference is that this monster goes after even more monstrous monsters.

Ya know, Spider-Man's killed a woman (accident, sure), slapped his pregnant wife and yet, he still remains popular. I mean hell, in Spider-Man Unlimited 11, they had Spidey arrest a random, sympathetic thug and yet! His latest movie has made over a billion dollars.

I'm hard pressed to think that things would be any different with Castle.

Also, citing Ennis isn't a great precedent as the man has little self awareness himself or any meaningful desire to cast doubt on the 'Manly man who does hard things' trope.

There have been plenty of times when they've called out the Punisher and plenty of times they've showed what he does isn't right and doesn't always help.

The problem with trying to examine the Punisher is that the Punisher is so emotionally dead that he just doesn't care and if what he does causes trouble, then he's just going to take care of that trouble too. Frank isn't a guy that leaves himself open to introspection too much.

They've never meaningfully called him out, or demonstrated how actually ineffective he would be, not really. If you disagree, please cite the story.

And while yes, Castle isn't one for introspection, that doesn't mean the consequences of his actions can go unexamined. Hell, we had Outlaw renounce the lifestyle and the Punisher verse hasn't exploded yet.

[phonogram12]

Ya know, Spider-Man's killed a woman (accident, sure), slapped his pregnant wife and yet, he still remains popular.

I'm not familiar with the latter story, but in re to the first one, that's something he's always regretted. His guilt and remorse are baked into his origin. That's part of how they sell him. Frank feels no such emotions doing what he does. That may've sold from the '70s-the earlier parts of this century, but it's definitely a harder sell now.

Also, citing Ennis isn't a great precedent as the man has little self awareness himself or any meaningful desire to cast doubt on the 'Manly man who does hard things' trope.

That's exactly his point, though, which I agree with. Perhaps other than the Netflix show (which I admittedly I enjoyed, but will be the first to say they kind of bent over backwards to justify Frank's serial killing ways and almost make them seem heroic), I think this is maybe the only way to really enjoy the character without it becoming overly problematic. You dig too deep and you realize you're rooting for (like I said) a serial killer.

I guess my point is, you can enjoy problematic things, it's just (although it's not a requirement) it's best to realize that they're problematic.

[Ra-El]

Ya know, Spider-Man's killed a woman (accident, sure), slapped his pregnant wife and yet, he still remains popular. I mean hell, in Spider-Man Unlimited 11, they had Spidey arrest a random, sympathetic thug and yet! His latest movie has made over a billion dollars.

I'm hard pressed to think that things would be any different with Castle.

Also, citing Ennis isn't a great precedent as the man has little self awareness himself or any meaningful desire to cast doubt on the 'Manly man who does hard things' trope.



They've never meaningfully called him out, or demonstrated how actually ineffective he would be, not really. If you disagree, please cite the story.

And while yes, Castle isn't one for introspection, that doesn't mean the consequences of his actions can go unexamined. Hell, we had Outlaw renounce the lifestyle and the Punisher verse hasn't exploded yet.

But that's the thing. Frank Castle don't want to be effective in anything if not killing some mobsters. He is not out to save the world or anyone in particular. He just want to kill people. How do you examine that? If he was trying to "save" the world, end crime or "bring fear to the heart of the criminals" like Batman, we could look at his effectiveness, but he isn't.

He is just a guy killing criminals, just like Garth Ennis protrayed him in the Max series. The consequence of his actions, the collateral "damage" is the people he saves sometimes, since that's is never his goal.

[MichaelC]

Not only do they not really deconstruct him, they have him chastise the more goody-goody heroes, calling them amateurish fools for not being hard and brutal. Then the rest of the story goes on to justify his critique, taking his side and having him humiliate them while saving the day with his brutality. The point of almost every Punisher story is that the Punisher is right, and having him randomly make an out-of-character speech to a few cops doesn't change that.

[The Cool Thatguy]

But that's the thing. Frank Castle don't want to be effective in anything if not killing some mobsters. He is not out to save the world or anyone in particular. He just want to kill people. How do you examine that? If he was trying to "save" the world, end crime or "bring fear to the heart of the criminals" like Batman, we could look at his effectiveness, but he isn't.

He is just a guy killing criminals, just like Garth Ennis protrayed him in the Max series. The consequence of his actions, the collateral "damage" is the people he saves sometimes, since that's is never his goal.

By examining the consequences it has on others? By actually having sympathetic victims? How he's seen by others?

Vic Mackey and Jax Teller got plenty of shade thrown their way long before the end of their respective series, Castle can survive just a little too.

Not only do they not really deconstruct him, they have him chastise the more goody-goody heroes, calling them amateurish fools for not being hard and brutal. Then the rest of the story goes on to justify his critique, taking his side and having him humiliate them while saving the day with his brutality. The point of almost every Punisher story is that the Punisher is right, and having him randomly make an out-of-character speech to a few cops doesn't change that.

Exactly this. I can't think of a single story that in no uncertain terms condemns his methods. Hell, his speech to the cops was just a pause in the story, no exploration of the possible consequences.

[Alan2099]

There are so many people in this topic that have obviously never read a Punisher comic in their lives. Even Ennis, whose regarded as the king of making Punisher look like a bad ass showed Frank as a miserable, emotionally dead, psycho, viewed by any hero he came across as an unhinged nutcase and who frequently ruined the lives of everyone around him. Heck, Punisher kills the Marvel Universe, which is often viewed as Ennis's biggest mockery of heroes even ends with Punisher realizing he's no better than the rest of the people he's been killing and then turning his gun on himself.

You guys don't want any deconstruction of the character or any deeper views of him, basically this topic is "I hate Punisher. Why can't they make more comics that show how the Punisher sucks?"

[batnbreakfast]

Heck, why not root for a serial killer once? There are many fans of Dexter, Conan and Darth Vader. Are people going after them, too? Frank is fine. There are many heroes to read about if you don't like the Punisher. I love Ennis' MAX run. One of Marvel's finest hours like Fraction's Hawkeye or Brubaker's Captain America