Krakoa's importance expounded on and explained PERFECTLY.

[MaximoffTrash]

All the, "Yas Ma'am burn it all to the ground" and "so after this run we see the Fall, right?" (referring to speculation after Reign of X) will never sit right with me. So you mean you want to read about a group of people CONSTANTLY in danger not because they have powers but because of fundamentally who they are? It's giving bigoted.

I mean, how do you differentitate between the two when the main focus are mostly powered mutants.

Also yeah, no shit, because real life minority are more often than not persecuted based on their inherent nature than what they actually do.

Or else their opposition will be the fictional "the Fascists who have an actual point" who are fighting against groups with dangerous powers and behavior instead of just being the actual regular Fascists who build up false narrative of the "dangerous minorities", dehumanize said groups and then attack you.

[sensormellow]

Let me ask you a question.The Spider-man fandom has wanted MCU Peter to suffer more ever since HC and specially since FFH even though he lost his parents, his Uncle, Tony Stark, got blipped, had the entire thing w/ the vulture and mysterio, etc.

People love that Peter is broke and alone and he's only 18 and was younger before this.Just go online there are thousands of posts about people saying it's messed up that people want a teen character to suffer so much and even more fans saying that they do.

Does that mean all those fans just love seeing kids suffer?

Why would you want to read about someone going through hell or a group of people under threat of genocide repeatedly?

[Spiderfan001]

Why would you want to read about someone going through hell or a group of people under threat of genocide repeatedly?

Just answer the question, do you think fans wanting MCU Peter who is a teenager going through a lot more suffering/"going through hell" mean they want kids to "go through hell"?

Or do you realize it's fiction and there's something called story

[sensormellow]

I mean, how do you differentitate between the two when the main focus are mostly powered mutants.

Also yeah, no shit, because real life minority are more often than not persecuted based on their inherent nature than what they actually do.

Or else their opposition will be the fictional "the Fascists who have an actual point" who are fighting against groups with dangerous powers and behavior instead of just being the actual regular Fascists who build up false narrative of the "dangerous minorities", dehumanize said groups and then attack you.

It's the same thing, to me at least. And it's just not about the mostly powered mutants being the main focus. It's also those who are left behind and living on the fringes which was the literal reason for this thread lmao.

The X-Men were/are written as an allegory for real-life minorities. I'm not sure what your point is. You want mutants being killed because they're mutants for your own personal entertainment? And you want mutants to do nothing about it? Interesting.

"The Fascists who have an actual point," well they can choose to co-exist with mutants but sure let's kill them all starting with the most vulnerable ones I guess.

You could go back and forth with a wall lol. As people have said so many times Krakoa has foundational errors but I'd argue it follows the same beats of the founding of nations, and they can course correct. The mutants are still thriving and I'm here for it.

[sensormellow]

Just answer the question, do you think fans wanting MCU Peter who is a teenager going through a lot more suffering/"going through hell" mean they want kids to "go through hell"?

Or do you realize it's fiction and there's something called story

Why would you want to read about a story composed of absolutely nothing but suffering? Is it for catharsis? Obsessed with it?

[Spiderfan001]

Why would you want to read about a story composed of absolutely nothing but suffering? Is it for catharsis? Obsessed with it?

Who said it's "nothing but suffering", don't try to twist words.

Also so you think the past decades before krakoa were "nothing but suffering"?Because those comics are the ones that made 99%+ people who like X-men today fans, not Krakoa era.

Literally hundreds of tweets(and on other platforms like Instagram) out there like this one in the past week since NWH came out

https://twitter.com/SMGold_/status/1474137529330798593

[Stormultt Divine]

All the, "Yas Ma'am burn it all to the ground" and "so after this run we see the Fall, right?" (referring to speculation after Reign of X) will never sit right with me. So you mean you want to read about a group of people CONSTANTLY in danger not because they have powers but because of fundamentally who they are? It's giving bigoted.

Right, that mess is not interesting to read about anymore. We been through it for decades.

[sensormellow]

Right, that mess is not interesting to read about anymore. We been through it for decades.

Hard agree. There are things called "growth" and "story progression" and "taking narratives to new heights."

[Stormultt Divine]

Whatever you gotta tell yourself, sunshine.
People said the same thing about Utopia. And the Inhumans. And look what happened to them.

Utopia and Krakoa are vastly different in terms of how they were built. Utopia was a storyline, Krakoa is a reset.

Yall keep hoping for a downfall though lol.

[ZuLuLu]

Why would you want to read about someone going through hell or a group of people under threat of genocide repeatedly?

I think that there are some fans who just find it more relatable and interesting reading about Spider-Man and the X-Men as perpetual underdogs who just happen to have powers who are just trying hard to do the right thing while never catching a break.

[Rift]

I don't think it's fair to call IRL people bigoted or anything. It's unfair to label people this or that for what they like in fictional stories. It's not always indicative of their character, and I don't think serious X-Fans are here because they think humies shooting up a school full of mutants is the peak of comedy.

I can understand liking the suffering. Misery and struggles build characters and make someone's plight more appealing. You sympathize and care for the underdog more than the clear winner. Often, you want to see them deal with the suffer and overcome it. Spider-Man (in the comics, at least) is the best example because he has such an awful life, yet his perseverance and strength to keep on going and find happiness is inspiring.

With X-Men though, I feel different. We had nothing but suffering, when being able to overcome that suffering should be the end goal. But for a long time, the franchise was about destroying them immediately when they rise up, and kicking them while they're down. Krakoa, for me, is that cathartic goal. It doesn't have to be their goal (we could go back to something similar to what we had in the past, but put mutants in a much better position than they were post-Decimation.) But what we have is the most interesting stage, and it opens up the story for new and different challenges.

[Stormultt Divine]

I think that there are some fans who just find it more relatable and interesting reading about Spider-Man and the X-Men as perpetual underdogs who just happen to have powers who are just trying hard to do the right thing while never catching a break.

Lol at some point it has to go somewhere though and it has, you cant keep pressing a button without expecting a result. The mutants are still hated by different factions around the world, who said the struggle was over?? They literally opened the door for more cosmic enemies as well. I love drama lol and i see the potential in these new concepts being introduced.

Its just that now they have a stable place to call home.

[SpiderClops]

Seeing those District X pages ironical gives me another example why i consider it unlikely for the Krakao status quo to last very long regardless of dwindling sales (which can arguably be more attributed to a lack of quality content done with the status quo than the concept alone), because it shows how the narrative of mutants has become some sort of ultimate victimhood role under many writers' mental image of how to present them, apparently because the mutant metaphor has been expanded into basicly any downtrodden minority (to the point it becomes contradicting when examined too closely) and can never escape showing all their issues in succession or combination.

They seemingly can't just have the same problems as colored people in the USA, but also need to have those of latin americans, asian americans, eastern european americans, newly arrived immigrants in the US, people of LGBT+ nature, religious minorities (including people of respective muslims, yewish and christian faiths), people with disabilities and so on, all at the same time and all rolled into one big pile wrapped up in a bag with "are hated by majority extremist stereotypes" written on it.
All while being defined throught unreal super powers which, unlike real people who are just different by appearance, culture or sexual identity, actualy oftem makes them highly dangerous by nature.

It's blunt force metaphor and presentation that has gone out of control and become the standard tool of many X-writers who wield it with the care of a cleaver when it requires to be used like scalpel. But this being primarily a super hero franchise, most writer's will not want to learn how to use the scalpel, or if they allready have them apply the skills to use it, but get right to the juicy part where the heros with cool code names, super powers and colorfull silly outfits beat up bad people with cool code names, super powers and colorfull silly outfits and their identical, bare characterized, faceless, stereotypical evil/amoral henchmen.

With the mutants (unless they are the supremely powerfull heros or villains) being basicly designated victims in the narrative of the X-men franchise it seems writers have become too accustomed to just hit it as often as possible to set their plots in motion or try to gain cheap sympathy by the readers quickly, to the point it's almost jarring when they bring the struggles of actual minorities into the stories aswell, since the mutant narrative otherwise unintentionaly downplays them as less important compared to their situation (Are they now part of the evil "Humans!" that the mutants keep complaining about? Since looking at the state of the real world, it seems the numerical majority of humans across the globe are actualy more downtrodden and suffering than mutants ever could. Yet the mutant narrative often seems to blame "humanity" collectively as source of their suffering).

The Krakoa status quo is basicly build out of a culmination of this victimhood role, especialy over the last 20 years of publication and uses it as justification and foundation for the radical departure of mutants being a scattered cosmo-political urban presence in Marvel universe, to having an enclosed fictional super nation out of nowhere and being better than everyone else, flipping the narrative on it's head. By suddently without build up turning the mutants into the ultimate winners, potentialy leanig dangerously close to looking more like a revenge fantasy than a liberation story.

However this raises the question for me on how long it can last, until writers once again get the itch to hit the victim button as much as possible for their stories again, in order to get to the punchy (or many case with the X-men comics, highly descriptive presentations of complex super powers) part quickly and find Krakao being in the way too much, that they will get the idea of getting rid of it in the cheapest way possible, making all the current "glory" just a brief oddity that will seem quaint in the long run?

Because it seems the default idea of mutants in many writers' minds is not that of a techno-organic super island nation ruling the solar system, but a bunch of weird looking folks in a run down district of New York, having it worse than everyone else, so their demi-gods can swoop in and occasionaly beat up white rascist frat boys or corrupt cops, when they aren't fighting world conqueres, extra dimensional monsters or their evil fellow mutants. As such it seems destined to me that it will sooner or later come back to it. Staus quo is god and the mutant status quo has been cemented as suffering it seems.

Which also makes it problematic to talk about "common mutants" since even in the current Krakoa era they don't really seem matter to most writers. (Again cape comic, no time for such things as main focus)
Previosly they were just mostly backround filler to be misserable and suffer. Now they are just mostly backround filler to be cheering and claiming being better than others. Otherwise they have no role, identity or agency beyond being random mutants. Infact disconnected from real world locations and cultures, writers can't just slip the respective issues of these situations into them for quick easy but functional characterization. Now they are "only" mutants and mutants have nothing but super powers.

This also makes all the talk of mutant "culture" elements ring hollow, since the current writers have for most part either not the time or talent to actualy explore and expand any such thing in a lasting way, especialy in their now enforced isolated state of cultural existance.
The focus is and remains on the demi-gods who do all meaningfull things (they are the stars after all) with little or no influence of "common" folk, while the current status quo downright removed the ability of these common mutants to have meaningfull agency at all. A mutant in New York might have had diverse neighbours, worry about taxes and bills, have a job with colleagues, a nasty supervisor and kind boss, enjoy a night at a bar, secretly be a fan of the LA Lackers while cheering for the Knicks in public and be in danger of being attacked by criminals on the commute to work or home like every other lower to middle class income person. Because they were just a fictional addition to the rest of humanity. Their stories wrote themself, because writers just needed to add a bit.
Krakoa meanwhile is a fully "alien" fictional place, that in it's fundamental intention wants to be disconnected from real world comparision, so writers will need extra effort for common mutants. Most writers will likely have no time for such efforts when they can just claim everybody is happy and better than the rest of humanity, while focusing on the heros personal lifes which exist in their own little bubble anyway for a while now.

Not to forget it likely dooms the Arraki to be meaningless to the overarching mutant narrative in the long run, since they aren't part or comming from the rest of the world or real cultures.

The current status quo, just seems to be the exception which proofs the rule, when it comes to mutants collectively.

Which is not something i enjoy though. The mutant metaphor is great when used strategically and with nuance (especialy since these are super hero comics which need to balance them with good action and soap opera elements). It's part of the reason i got invested in X-men after all. But nuance is a rare commodity, especialy with modern Marvel and DC writers and as such it has suffered in the last two decades.

In my opinion Hickam just flipped the coin of mutants on it's head and now it rests there until someone will flip it again, but i think the best status would be for it to stand on it's edge or even better be spinning. But that requires and effort i can' currently see anyone doing.

So sooner or later it's back to suffering i fear, because that's what writers seem to default to for mutants, it offers the cheapest and fastest drama, much to my annoyance over the last two decades.

Also sidenote. I'd love to see a District X streaming series with Bishop as honest cop (from the present) in a mutant dominated fictional neighbourhood. A down to earth perspective on a world in which minor super powers become normality in a modern urban landscape and how it affects the state of it in good, bad and ugly (including positive discrimination and favoritism of people with certain traits via the changing cultural norms) ways. Though somewhat different than the comics of course (as adaptions tend to do).

*clap* *clap* *clap*

[Saithor]

I don't think it's fair to call IRL people bigoted or anything. It's unfair to label people this or that for what they like in fictional stories. It's not always indicative of their character, and I don't think serious X-Fans are here because they think humies shooting up a school full of mutants is the peak of comedy.

I can understand liking the suffering. Misery and struggles build characters and make someone's plight more appealing. You sympathize and care for the underdog more than the clear winner. Often, you want to see them deal with the suffer and overcome it. Spider-Man (in the comics, at least) is the best example because he has such an awful life, yet his perseverance and strength to keep on going and find happiness is inspiring.

With X-Men though, I feel different. We had nothing but suffering, when being able to overcome that suffering should be the end goal. But for a long time, the franchise was about destroying them immediately when they rise up, and kicking them while they're down. Krakoa, for me, is that cathartic goal. It doesn't have to be their goal (we could go back to something similar to what we had in the past, but put mutants in a much better position than they were post-Decimation.) But what we have is the most interesting stage, and it opens up the story for new and different challenges.

I mean, I think most of us have been clear that our issues with Krakoa has less to do with its existence and more with either the execution, and/or story elements that have had to be quickly changed as Hickman was removed, and/or critiscisms of Krakoa as a setting related to lazy/lacking worldbuilding for a setting that’s ….three, I think 3 maybe four years old now. I have seen essentially no one advocate that what the X-men need is a return to the post-Decimation status quo or the mansion. People have a right to complain about X-men book direction without being bigots. Going to my Example from earlier, if this defense was used for things like Austen’s runs I’m pretty sure you’d get laughed at.

So in short, I do not like some elements of the status quo and have issues with them. This does not make me a bigot. People can dislike elements of storytelling involving the X-men and not be bigots as a result. And honestly it is deeply insulting that people on this forum think things like criticizing the Quiet Council as an oligarchic corrupt system means you want Orchis to win.

[MaximoffTrash]

It's the same thing, to me at least. And it's just not about the mostly powered mutants being the main focus. It's also those who are left behind and living on the fringes which was the literal reason for this thread lmao.

The X-Men were/are written as an allegory for real-life minorities. I'm not sure what your point is. You want mutants being killed because they're mutants for your own personal entertainment? And you want mutants to do nothing about it? Interesting.

"The Fascists who have an actual point," well they can choose to co-exist with mutants but sure let's kill them all starting with the most vulnerable ones I guess.

You could go back and forth with a wall lol. As people have said so many times Krakoa has foundational errors but I'd argue it follows the same beats of the founding of nations, and they can course correct. The mutants are still thriving and I'm here for it.

Bruh, can you even read what I type or you are too deep into some fictional minority persecution fantasy?
I am talking about the phenomenon of writers shooting themselves in the foot when they gave the bad guys an actual valid point.

Say someone write a fictional WWII novel about the horrors of the holocaust, but instead of just framing Nazis and their Jewish victims as what they are, and how Nazi fabricate the whole conspiracy about the Jewish people. The writer went the route of "actually, the Jews indeed secretly controlled the world through some illuminati shit and want to destroy Western civilization(here goes other nazi talking points)". Will it make Nazi's genocidal behavior any less horrifying? Nope.
But why are you giving the Nazi in the story actual point in the first place?
Fascists who have a point are still Fascists, but you are unironically making them actually logical to some extent in their ideology.

And it's not really about Krakoa, it's one of the fundamental issues when ficitonal works use superpowered beings/mages/etc as a allergory for people who are born into their groups and they have inherent traits that could not be changed. AKA making them actually different on a fundamental level, especially so when the narrative went out of the way to tell you said ficitonal group is not/beyond "human".

Annnd I will be real with you, X-Men/Mutant torture porn narrative is one of the most rehashed and pathetic storyline, I say pathetic mainly about how creative bankrupt the authors can get.