Judgement Day (2022)

[Habis]

I think this pretty much confirms that the Resurrection Protocols are taken offline in A.X.E. Judgment Day…



From: https://www.cbr.com/marvel-x-force-b...rcy-interview/

I think he’s clearly motivated by the fact that mutants can die again. Seems obvious, but I could be wrong.

There is an interesting mention of a Celestial appearing, passing judgement and making demands, and of it shaking Kraven.

There is also mention of mutants becoming apex creatures on Earth... I suspect he has spoiled the ending of Judgement Day: A Celestial appears and sides with the mutants, who are now officially acknowledged as top dogs on Earth by the Celestials themselves...

I expect that to make mutants unbearably arrogant, and shake and galvanize humans, who will "go f*** that!".

[Ulysian_Thracs]

I understand people's logistical/narrative frustration with the protocols, though I still think that's a problem with execution and how they're being used rather than a problem with the concept or reason for it - but even though I definitely agree they'll be done away with at SOME point, I'll be pretty ticked if this event is what does it.

Like sorry not sorry, but given that the in-universe explanation for devising the protocols in the first place wasn't mutants just making themselves immortal for the hell of it, but specifically emphasized using them to bring back the millions of mutants lost in various mass murders.....

It'll be hugely tone deaf, IMO, to have them conclude yet ANOTHER attempted mass genocide of mutants specifically, with some form of 'and now the mutants are going to stop using resurrection to appease everyone who doesn't like it as they agree they just shouldn't have it if everyone can't have it.'

Like, by all means get rid of the protocols if you think they've outlived their usefulness or purpose, but don't do it THAT way, of all ways.

(Plus, I do think some people are just projecting what they WANT to happen in terms of that particular outcome, rather than because the protocols are going away just yet. I mean, Gillen is indisputably the architect of this event, which will conclude within a few months, even with the delays, and it seems like a huge oversight to create an event that does away with mutant immortality at the exact same time they launched his solo title with the literal title IMMORTAL X-Men - knowing even as they did so, that the title wouldn't even be accurate all the way through the first YEAR of his run. Just....feels a bit unlikely, is all I'm saying).

I find resurrection to be really frustrating because it takes all the danger out of the stories in world, vs. out of the world. Sure, we know as fans the writers arre never going to really kill off Logan or Cyclopes or Jean Grey. But the characters don't know that in the stories, so they act like every mission could be their last. Since resurrection, however, death simply doesn't matter.

'Suicide mission? Bring it on! Who cares if we all die? Let's drink some Krakoan whiskey and have a threesome when we wake up!'

My personal take is that if they don't take the missions seriously as life and death, it's less exciting for me as a reader. Take the latest X-men mission to the gambling den. It was fun and beautifully drawn, but to me it was a yawn for two reasons. First, the Spores were so under their power level that it was laughable to put Jones up against that team. (I think Jean could've should've went with the boys to make it a better fight. This was the kind of mission the X-Kids would've been better suited for.) But also, there is absolutely no risk to those characters at all.

[Habis]

I find resurrection to be really frustrating because it takes all the danger out of the stories in world, vs. out of the world. Sure, we know as fans the writers arre never going to really kill off Logan or Cyclopes or Jean Grey. But the characters don't know that in the stories, so they act like every mission could be their last. Since resurrection, however, death simply doesn't matter.

'Suicide mission? Bring it on! Who cares if we all die? Let's drink some Krakoan whiskey and have a threesome when we wake up!'

My personal take is that if they don't take the missions seriously as life and death, it's less exciting for me as a reader. Take the latest X-men mission to the gambling den. It was fun and beautifully drawn, but to me it was a yawn for two reasons. First, the Spores were so under their power level that it was laughable to put Jones up against that team. (I think Jean could've should've went with the boys to make it a better fight. This was the kind of mission the X-Kids would've been better suited for.) But also, there is absolutely no risk to those characters at all.

This could be solved if the mutants felt a bit of angst about it... like "are the Resurrection Protocols really a form of resurrection? Or, are they just making copies of dead people? Am I the real [insert the name of any X-Man], or just a clone with implanted memories? If I die, will I die for real?".

But all mutants act as if they had zero doubts about the Protocols... and of course, now that they have a literal Heaven to store their souls until resurrection, they have even less reasons to doubt...

[BobbysWorld]

Yeah, I was expecting resurrection to be offline at least part of the time during this crossover - the real question for me is whether it ends with mutants getting full or altered resurrection capabilities back, or just...not.

Personally, I think they're overlooking the opportunity to do a lot with just the idea that mutants might have 'solved for death' but they sure didn't solve for pain or trauma, and they can still feel both those things and death is well, traumatic. There's no way for it NOT to be. So exploring the idea that an unintentional consequence of immortality might be an uptick in personal trauma as the lack of mortality makes mutants more personally reckless, requiring a societal shift in focusing on the place trauma holds in an individual's life and how a society responds to or addresses that.....there's def interesting stories there I think, and they were kinda teased as possibilities with stuff like Domino saying 'what if I don't WANT to remember dying' or stuff like that early on in Percy's X-Force run. But they haven't actually done anything with it beyond that.

[king of hybrids]

In fairness one can probably return stakes to death without

Even accounting for the Waiting Room*; the RP are dependent on the Shi’ar data crystals Cerebro copies anima on to and the Sinister’s archive. Both are well within the Eternals technological ability to render them permanently/temporarily inert

If the Five are reduced to only a comparative fee resurrections via the waiting room at a time; it puts some sting to death re how long it lasts and a lot social problems for Krakoa

*the Eternal are explicitly bad with magic, possibly even designed that way (which is probably why Thanos is the only known dabbler)

[Frontier]

Yeah, I was expecting resurrection to be offline at least part of the time during this crossover - the real question for me is whether it ends with mutants getting full or altered resurrection capabilities back, or just...not.

Personally, I think they're overlooking the opportunity to do a lot with just the idea that mutants might have 'solved for death' but they sure didn't solve for pain or trauma, and they can still feel both those things and death is well, traumatic. There's no way for it NOT to be. So exploring the idea that an unintentional consequence of immortality might be an uptick in personal trauma as the lack of mortality makes mutants more personally reckless, requiring a societal shift in focusing on the place trauma holds in an individual's life and how a society responds to or addresses that.....there's def interesting stories there I think, and they were kinda teased as possibilities with stuff like Domino saying 'what if I don't WANT to remember dying' or stuff like that early on in Percy's X-Force run. But they haven't actually done anything with it beyond that.

The fact that they haven't really done much with it up to this point indicates to me there isn't that much interest in doing so, although I guess it takes some time for them to resolve the seedier aspects of Krakoa.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

This could be solved if the mutants felt a bit of angst about it... like "are the Resurrection Protocols really a form of resurrection? Or, are they just making copies of dead people? Am I the real [insert the name of any X-Man], or just a clone with implanted memories? If I die, will I die for real?".

But all mutants act as if they had zero doubts about the Protocols... and of course, now that they have a literal Heaven to store their souls until resurrection, they have even less reasons to doubt...

I personally think resurrection isn't all its cracked up to be, and a lot of mutants are going to be very sorry for putting their faith in it.

First, you hit the nail on the head. 100% this is not real resurrection because they can create multiple copies at the same time. If they create a dozen Lauras and they stand next to each other, is there a hive mind thinking with one sentience and seeing through all the eyes (and other senses at once), or do they all have their own thoughts and see through their own eyes alone? I think we saw in Japeth there might be some psychic blowback, but the copied slugs were two seperate entities. That's not ressurection. The original dies and copy is brought back to serve mutantdom because as always, the mutant leaders are more concerned for their cause than the actual people who believe in their dream. (Looking at you, Chuckie!)

Add to that any number of complications from a villain who is specifically a genetic engineer and cloner...

[Mercury]

I think this pretty much confirms that the Resurrection Protocols are taken offline in A.X.E. Judgment Day…



From: https://www.cbr.com/marvel-x-force-b...rcy-interview/

I think he’s clearly motivated by the fact that mutants can die again. Seems obvious, but I could be wrong.

Nah. Too soon. Besides, Percy pretty much confirms Kraven’s motivation in his response prior to the one you posted:

You can imagine that a Celestial showing up, making demands, and offering judgment on the world might set Kraven off.

[Rev9]

I find resurrection to be really frustrating because it takes all the danger out of the stories in world, vs. out of the world. Sure, we know as fans the writers arre never going to really kill off Logan or Cyclopes or Jean Grey. But the characters don't know that in the stories, so they act like every mission could be their last. Since resurrection, however, death simply doesn't matter.

'Suicide mission? Bring it on! Who cares if we all die? Let's drink some Krakoan whiskey and have a threesome when we wake up!'

My personal take is that if they don't take the missions seriously as life and death, it's less exciting for me as a reader. Take the latest X-men mission to the gambling den. It was fun and beautifully drawn, but to me it was a yawn for two reasons. First, the Spores were so under their power level that it was laughable to put Jones up against that team. (I think Jean could've should've went with the boys to make it a better fight. This was the kind of mission the X-Kids would've been better suited for.) But also, there is absolutely no risk to those characters at all.

In the main yes the stakes are completely gone, and the writing doesn't help.For example it would be better to make the
Synch resurrection experience as a counterpoint to Scott before they even decide to come out to come clean to Ben.For me the 'I took your memory of the story to protect my people.I..was afraid.My friend was dead and I was scared of what else I could lose' is an understandable response with Synch having Ecuador post resurrection drama, and if he said it to Scott weighing whether they should reveal about the resurrections would work better. It is as if he were saying 'The resurrections are our prerogative but once the genie is out of the bottle .I'm afraid everything will change' .For me saying this to Ben doesn't land because he cannot be afraid about the initial loss precisely because it is no loss at all and he knows it. I feel this should have been shared between Scott and Synch first as a primer. It is made weirder still by the fact that Scott says 'It only works for mutants.I can't stress that enough'. Like in that very admission he is outing the story knowing humanity will try and ask that mutants share the tech and the inevitable denial even on the grounds of truth will be taken the wrong way.

Anyway it's spilt milk

[Dipter]

I want this to get started already. Am I mistaken, or has the wait for Judgement Day been significantly longer than the previous two x-men events?

[JB]

I want this to get started already. Am I mistaken, or has the wait for Judgement Day been significantly longer than the previous two x-men events?

Yeah it has been and I believe it was supposed to start this month then got pushed back due to the delays. Which tracks since we have some lead-up happening that needs to take place first.

[Outburstz]

Why are you guys pretending like Death in comic books has any meaning? The only thing that the Resurrections protocol has done is removed the veil of fakeness.

Let's stop acting like death is the only way for comics to make stakes trauma ,torture , capture , internal conflicts, ethnical dilemma , politics , betrayal , etc

It's very short sighted to just look at a book and go "oh well they can't die I don't care what happens" It's like you don't care about anything else that happens.

[Kurolegacy]

Why are you guys pretending like Death in comic books has any meaning? The only thing that the Resurrections protocol has done is removed the veil of fakeness.

Let's stop acting like death is the only way for comics to make stakes trauma ,torture , capture , internal conflicts, ethnical dilemma , politics , betrayal , etc

It's very short sighted to just look at a book and go "oh well they can't die I don't care what happens" It's like you don't care about anything else that happens.

Because it basically takes the issue of comic book death being a revolving door and exacerbates it to a ridiculous level. It got to the point where plot points and in the X-books became turning Quentin’s dying into the equivalent of a running gag, Xavier repeatedly sending X-Force on suicide missions to the Orchis base or that even characters in-universe treat dying as something akin to losing your virginity. Even if comic death had been a revolving door, there was still an resonance of emotion attached to it that made it a tragedy when something happened to a character and served as a reminder that these characters aren’t invincible and are going into life threatening situations. Now, in the X-books, writers will literally lean on the death button because death is the equivalent of a bad haircut where you just shrug your shoulders and say ‘Eh, it’ll just grow back.’

[jwatson]

Because it basically takes the issue of comic book death being a revolving door and exasperates it to a ridiculous level. It got to the point where plot points and in the X-books became turning Quentin’s dying into the equivalent of a running gag, Xavier repeatedly sending X-Force on suicide missions to the Orchis base or that even characters in-universe treat dying as something akin to losing your virginity. Even if comic death had been a revolving door, there was still an resonance of emotion attached to it that made it a tragedy when something happened to a character and served as a reminder that these characters aren’t invincible and are going into life threatening situations. Now, in the X-books, writers will literally lean on the death button because death is the equivalent of a bad haircut where you just shrug your shoulders and say ‘Eh, it’ll just grow back.’

Flat out the death thing is on the writers. Why did they become so sloppy. I think one has to ask why all of a sudden the writers decided that just because there were resurrection protocols why did it need to become such a "gimmick" with the abuse of death. Had the protocols not existed i assume they wouldn't be writing the same kind of stories where mutants are dying every other issue so rather than the plot i don't get why people aren't asking why the writers are using it so lazily. I mean at least in Red i can say the stakes were there for the deaths, even in immortal i can say the deaths that happened so far fit the plot such as needing selene in a weak almost infantile moment but overall i would have to ask shouldn't we question why the process is being abused rather than the process itself because it could just be a background thing bringing back dead mutants but instead there has been intentional abuse of it. I honestly have to ask why?

[Outburstz]

Because it basically takes the issue of comic book death being a revolving door and exacerbates it to a ridiculous level. It got to the point where plot points and in the X-books became turning Quentin’s dying into the equivalent of a running gag, Xavier repeatedly sending X-Force on suicide missions to the Orchis base or that even characters in-universe treat dying as something akin to losing your virginity. Even if comic death had been a revolving door, there was still an resonance of emotion attached to it that made it a tragedy when something happened to a character and served as a reminder that these characters aren’t invincible and are going into life threatening situations. Now, in the X-books, writers will literally lean on the death button because death is the equivalent of a bad haircut where you just shrug your shoulders and say ‘Eh, it’ll just grow back.’

So the only aspect of a comic book that you can attach emotions to is if this villain of the week is going to kill the character?

Mutants have experienced more death than any other group. Them being able to conquer it is a huge leap forward because for most of their time they were constantly fighting it or near death so we can finally see what they are like when they are not constantly at death's door.