Judgement Day (2022)

[Ulysian_Thracs]

Except they brought back Wanda, who's human. The reason they can't bring back humans isnt because of the Five being unable to, its because Cerebro only has backups of mutants.

And there's the rub. It can be done, even if not perfectly like the mutants seem to be doing.

Except wanda had a backup as does quicksilver which were both old meaning it was when cerebro and the fans recognized them as mutants. Cerebro had no backup post on panel wanda is not a mutant. I am certain mutants can clone a human body, the problem would be the id to put into it, or consciousness. Though i guess theoretically humans could use their own resources and create a computer that backs up human memory but i seriously doubt most humans will willing let someone back up their entire mind and potentially know their secrets. Especially not as they are presented in the MU where the idea of someone having abilities is so fearsome. Also why would humans even trust mutants to resurrect them when they don't even trust them to learn to control their powers.

Why does it matter if they can be resurrected with or without memories? If my daughter died of cancer and I could have her back, I would move heaven and earth to make it happen even without her memories. Getting her back exactly as she left would be preferred, but I think the alternative is still a hill to fight and die on for anyone who has lost a loved one.

[jwatson]

Ah Rosenberg's run, the intentional downpoint of X-men franchise to make anything else appear more pleasing after it, regardless of how radical it departs from the established norm...

The problem i have here is that i can't take it and it's seeming absolute impact on the morals and willingness of mutants to embrace everything about Krakoa so willingly or downright fanatically serious, since said impact would have been reversed one way or another anyway. Just like everything that happens to humanity at large in the Marvel comics.

Because regardless of how close to extinction mutants had been over the previous years, somehow they always seem to repopulate in large enough numbers at a ridiculous speed just to provide nameless victims again.

After all, barely a few in universe weeks after Hope and Wanda allowed new mutants to occur across the globe, there were suddently enough adult mutants again to die by the thousands of M-Pox, so they could fill random mass graves.
Including an entire team of nameless mutant scientist who were found dead by Cyclops and Emma. Who were they? Where did they come from? Were they mutants before or after they became scientist? Why were they seemingly specialist in mutant genetics to research the effect of Terrigan on them?

Just like how the Morlocks were suddently a community again in the aftermath of House of M, but only so they could be shown to be a large group of victims via Decimation. Even though they disbanded and scattered entirely since Mikhail flooded the tunnels and took most of them to The Hill in 1994.
Oh and during Rosenberg's run there were also suddently a whole community of powered Morlocks again, just so they could be shown to get attacked.

And despite the state left behind by his run, we could see in HOX/POX that seemingly hundreds if not thousands of powered mutants were allready populating Krakoa's backround, even though, as you stated they had been seemingly reduced to nothing but the X-men around Cyclops and those who had been trapped in the Age of X-men possible a few weeks before (without the RP or crucible in place)

I'm don't want to trivalize the things that happend to the mutants in the Marvel comics over the decades, but when writers have made it a habbit to snap large masses of mutants into existence from no in universe basis, just so they could show them suffer and repeat the process again after the next extinction storyline, it becomes difficult to take the implication of longterm mental or moral consequences on them serious anymore.

Ever since AvX the mutants seem to exist in a post-consequences status quo akin to the 3 month rule in wrestling.

Though as mentioned above, if we look at the larger Marvel universe this has been the standard for ALL of humanity for a while, not just the mutants among them.

After all normal humans too have been attacked, killed, tormented and conquered by the millions over 50+ decades of stories involving aliens, super villains, demons, other dimensional beings and so on and yet the societies and nations of Earth have remained the same, only changing as the real world does.

If the same logic of mutants embracing Krakoa and all it's things without question is because of what happend to them over the past 15 years, would be allowed to be applied to humanity as a whole, all of Earth should look a lot different than it does.

It should be a green energy high tech magic fortress, filled with super humans created by publilyc backed national institute using the various pieces of super technology or magic, that in some stories show getting even traded in back alleys by shady guys in trenchcoats, but seemingly only bought by villains, criminals or super heros and always forgotten again regardless of how much the public has allready seen them being used.

And yet it isn't, because it has been firmly established that no horror unleashed on humanity can have lasting impact on the minds, souls and mentalities of it's people. Since the writers want them to be in said mindset to remain reflective of the real world.

So i can't entirely buy the "desperate times call for deseperate measures" for why mutants would collectively, without questions, doubt or argument embrace Krakoa and it's technologies/cultures as it's new true self like that, if we can't see the same kind of consequences on the rest of humanity.

I can certainly accept that MANY mutants would embrace these things because of the circumstances you alluded to, but it doesn't seem right to me that ALL of them would do so. But that's just my viewpoint.

Around 385,000 babies are born everyday so it sort of make sense to me at least the x-gene being gone and then coming back would awaken latent mutants, humans that should have been mutants. I believe hickman put a good number on it in house of x or powers but i can't remember the exact number. So something like that i could easily wank but if we are talking in universe i think of Val. If val was born right before all this happened a few years before decimation that would mean all of this stuff has happened to mutants in universe over a period of what 5-10 years. I don't think any other group in the MU, humans included have experienced that kind of extinction level event so close to each other and repeatedly I mean have most mutants even had time to process it.

[Grunty]

Around 385,000 babies are born everyday so it sort of make sense to me at least the x-gene being gone and then coming back would awaken latent mutants, humans that should have been mutants. I believe hickman put a good number on it in house of x or powers but i can't remember the exact number. So something like that i could easily wank but if we are talking in universe i think of Val. If val was born right before all this happened a few years before decimation that would mean all of this stuff has happened to mutants in universe over a period of what 5-10 years. I don't think any other group in the MU, humans included have experienced that kind of extinction level event so close to each other and repeatedly I mean have most mutants even had time to process it.

Again it's understandable to a degree, but even in the face of that, such a collective acceptance and embrace of highly alien things still feels like a stretch or at least "because the writer says so" to me. Especialy since we are talking about a universe with allready warped timescale and public perception of life and universe changing events.

It seems like we should leave it at a disagreement here.

[jwatson]

Again it's understandable to a degree, but even in the face of that, such a collective acceptance and embrace of highly alien things still feels like a stretch or at least "because the writer says so" to me. Especialy since we are talking about a universe with allready warped timescale and public perception of life and universe changing events.

It seems like we should leave it at a disagreement here.

Yeah i agree. I don't think we actually disagree completely like i feel there is a middle ground where i perfectly understand where your coming from but the gap is small enough but large enough that i'd prefer to say we aren't disagreeing we just don't agree. and leave it there.

[Kurolegacy]

I just don't see the argument as to why the protocols don't work on humans vs not wanting to use them on humans. Cerebro's scanned billions of minds before, the Fives output is basically "whichever character needs to be brought back now". It might be hard getting DNA from rando humans but they can manage it for a **** ton of characters it doesnt even make sense for them to have DNA or, plus I'd bet your ass Sinisters got loads of human DNA too.

And again, we've already seen them resurrect a human with it. The only issue with bringing back Wanda was how old her backup was, but they instantly beamed the gaps into her brain.

It wouldn’t be hard getting the DNA at all as it’s already been stated that Sinister already has a database of the DNA of everyone on the planet.

[JB]

That was actually, my response. Stop reading my MIND Jbenito!!!

Sorry! Being a telepath is hard!

I think there's a lot to unpack with sharing resurrection tech with humanity. It's not as simple as deserve.

1.Should the mutants share their resurrection technology (if it works for humans.) Yes. It's pretty supervillainy to do a massive eugenics project where mutants live forever while you let humanity die out.

2. Does humanity deserve them to share it. No. Even other superheroes wouldn't piss on mutants to put out a fire. No one cares about them, and most actively hate them.

3. Would humanity go to war if they found out mutants could resurrect them and won't. In a heartbeat. And that's the reason I think they would have to share, whether they want to or not. Wars are fought for much less. And I think it's clear that mutants would have to face off against everyone else--Avengers, Inhumans, Eternals, etc.--if they are found out and try to keep it for themselves.

And the other element to add to this is something I believe BobbysWorld brought up previously, in that it's going to take a very long time to resurrect all of the dead mutants. So then there's the question of should they prioritize certain humans over mutants or make all humans wait a decade (or longer) until the mutants are back. Tough calls all around.

[BobbysWorld]

Sorry! Being a telepath is hard!



And the other element to add to this is something I believe BobbysWorld brought up previously, in that it's going to take a very long time to resurrect all of the dead mutants. So then there's the question of should they prioritize certain humans over mutants or make all humans wait a decade (or longer) until the mutants are back. Tough calls all around.

Yup, I originally posted this in the Hellfire Gala preview thread. Its not just as simple as does Cerebro record human minds, or simply mutants saying 'oh we don't care about resurrecting humans.'

Repost from other thread:

Everyone's forgetting the logistical angle.....the Five are just five people, and it takes TIME for them to get through the queue. It was established back in HoX/PoX that at their PEAK, they can manage as much as three thousand resurrections a week, which is already insanely fast and means they're resurrecting hundreds a day.....and even WITH that, it was clarified that it would take them ten years to get through the sixteen million mutants already in the resurrection queue, after Genosha. And this was BEFORE Trial of Magneto, which added another twenty million mutants to the queue.

It'll be decades before they even finish resurrecting their own people, and even once that happens, thirty six million mutants is still only a drop in the bucket that is over seven BILLION people.

There are definitely arguments to be made about withholding something like this from the entirety of humanity when you have it available to share, but mutants definitely have a right to prioritize FIRST making this process - born of their OWN technology/innovation and labor - available to their own people before sharing it with others....and the logistics of resurrecting humanity in large numbers means a lot of these arguments would still be hypothetical as of now. Krakoa has the technology to do this, but they do not have the infrastructure to do for humanity what they're currently doing for themselves, on any kind of comparable scale even just PERCENTAGE wise. Even with Krakoa extending this as a technology they want to share with humanity, SOMEONE has to go first or be prioritized first, and like, it makes sense that they'd offer it to heroes who routinely risk their lives to protect the Earth and everyone on it.

Theoretically, as more and more mutants are resurrected and born, they'll discover more people with the combined powersets needed to do what the Five do in their own individual circuits, thus growing their resurrection infrastructure and increasing their means of bringing back both mutants AND humans in a more timely fashion, thus allowing them to broaden the scope of sharing this process with humanity.....but they're not there yet and won't be for awhile, even in the best of circumstances.

With the nature of Marvel's sliding time scale, they could continue to tell stories where practical resurrection for humanity is still a thing that's decades in the future and thus doesn't impact or change the CURRENT nature of stories told about Marvel Earth, beyond how its applied to mutants and human heroes, and frankly, the nature of comics means that some future editorial staff will undo the resurrection capabilities to restore traditional death stakes long before that would ever become practically relevant anyway, even if the current editorial staff has no plans to do so during their tenure.

But like, its literally just not as simple as 'entitled mutants are hoarding the secret of their immortality or only sharing it with a select few friends'? They simply CAN'T roll it out on a mass, society-wide scale for anyone other than their own society, due to their own society's FAR lesser numbers compared to other populations/demographics.

And quite frankly - and ESPECIALLY given that resurrection technology isn't the result of some machine they made, or a pill they came up with, but requires the regular, ongoing and voluntary labor and efforts of five individual mutants in particular - acting like Krakoans OWE the rest of the world the results of those individual mutants' labor OVER their first prioritizing using it for the purpose they invented it in the first place....to restore their own population after it had been winnowed down to a tiny percentage of their overall numbers (largely by repeated mass murders and attempted genocide) - THAT would be the very definition of entitled.

[gonnagiveittoya]

Id also expect that the Avengers are smart enough to figure out that the mutants did bring Wanda back after she had died

[Jv565]

It has nothing to do with whether humans deserve it or how mutants have been treated. Yes. They were treated badly. Yes they were hunted and killed. Now, humans will die out and mutants could stop that, but won't. Lots of mutants died because of humans, and now lots of humans will die because of mutants unwillingness to share technology that would prevent that. Aggressive hate, meet passive indifference. They both end up with the same result. The truth of the matter is that anyone who can cure a disease or prevent literal death and doesn't share that with humanity is a bad guy. And, with that being said, at least the Eternals are unwittingly causing the deaths of humans. Mutants are actively making a choice not to prevent it.

[Kurolegacy]

Sorry! Being a telepath is hard!



And the other element to add to this is something I believe BobbysWorld brought up previously, in that it's going to take a very long time to resurrect all of the dead mutants. So then there's the question of should they prioritize certain humans over mutants or make all humans wait a decade (or longer) until the mutants are back. Tough calls all around.

I’d say that at that point, it should come down to a case to case basis. Should they open the protocols to humans, it doesn’t have to be all humans initially. Start with a smaller pool, particularly those who are younger and had underlying issues such as terminal disease. It would increase the queue but for an understandable group. At that point, they could even alternate between mutants and that pool of humans. It would seem kinda hypocritical for mutantkind to resent the innocent whose life was tragically cut short due to circumstances beyond their control getting a chance at life.

[ZuLuLu]

If mutants explain the resurrection process are non-mutants not capable of copying it?

[Saithor]

If mutants explain the resurrection process are non-mutants not capable of copying it?

They cannot. The bottleneck in the process is the Five who can get exhausted after a while.

Admittedly they can just use the resurrections process to make multiple copies of the Five in order to speed things up but they have not because the authors don't want to touch the "Technically everyone's a clone" button.

[BobbysWorld]

It has nothing to do with whether humans deserve it or how mutants have been treated. Yes. They were treated badly. Yes they were hunted and killed. Now, humans will die out and mutants could stop that, but won't. Lots of mutants died because of humans, and now lots of humans will die because of mutants unwillingness to share technology that would prevent that. Aggressive hate, meet passive indifference. They both end up with the same result. The truth of the matter is that anyone who can cure a disease or prevent literal death and doesn't share that with humanity is a bad guy. And, with that being said, at least the Eternals are unwittingly causing the deaths of humans. Mutants are actively making a choice not to prevent it.

Not only is aggressive hate meet passive indifference NOT the same thing and the very essence of a false equivalency, its not actually even passive indifference?

A HISTORICALLY MARGINALIZED GROUP PRIORITIZING ITS OWN MEMBERS AND EMPHASIZING USING ITS RESOURCES INTERNALLY BEFORE SHARING THEM WITH OTHERS IS NOT REMOTELY COMPARABLE WITH HISTORICALLY NON-MARGINALIZED GROUPS WITHHOLDING RESOURCES IN ORDER TO OPPRESS OTHERS OR JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN.

Y'all keep insisting that the only explanation for mutants not sharing resurrection technology world-wide, the instant they even have it, is because of pettiness, or indifference, or all these things that distract from the fact that PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN OPPRESSED HAVE THE RIGHT TO PRIORITIZE THEMSELVES. And literally ALL that is about, is taking advantage of the opportunity to flourish, once they HAVE it, and has absolutely NOTHING to do with anyone BUT them.

Again, mutants aren't DOING anything to humanity. Humanity is continuing on the same as it always has been, with the same problems its always faced, and the most that mutants are ACTUALLY doing is just saying its not our responsibility to solve all your problems or make them a priority, and its weird if that gets you heated considering how few of you ever saw Genosha, the Legacy Virus or M-Day as a problem so long as you weren't affected.

Not prioritizing someone else in order to focus on yourself is categorically NOT the same as actively oppressing someone. Not volunteering to get up and help someone do something is NOT the same as standing in that other person's way. Mutants saying or thinking disparaging things about humans who have historically been violent towards them even based on the hypothetical of them being threats, is NOT the same thing as humans initiating violent acts on mutants because of the potential threat they might be.

None of these things are remotely interchangeable. They still matter, yes! Absolutely! But they are not INTERCHANGEABLE. They can not be swapped out and treated as a one on one comparison, as though the difference between them is negligible or outright irrelevant.

You are literally handwaving 'yes they were treated badly, yes they were hunted and killed' as your lead in to 'now humans will die out and mutants could stop that' and you could not BE more dismissive if you tried. Even while being disingenuous as hell, because humans have died as long as humans have existed, lmao, humans continuing to die as a natural part of life is NOT 'humans will die out' - humans aren't on the verge of extinction because MORTALITY EXISTS, like, do you not hear how utterly dishonest you're being with language choices like that?

THIS is the bullshit that pisses me off about this era. People who have previously never bothered to pay much attention to the tensions or power imbalances present in mutants being treated as an allegory for oppression, but the second mutants start flourishing in the comics and the power imbalance goes away, suddenly scads of readers who never saw it as much of a problem when mutants were persecuted - almost because they were like, well that's just the natural order of things, that's the way its SUPPOSED to be - suddenly many of those same readers who couldn't have given a **** before are like, mutants are oppressing humans by not doing everything they can to make human lives better, even though the entire point is mutants aren't doing ANYTHING actionable about humanity. People keep trying to pretend that the power imbalances have flipped the other way completely, when to have an OPPRESSIVE power imbalance, one group has to be actively EXERTING POWER over the other....like humans used to exert power over mutants in very clear ways, such as by mutant registration acts, Sentinel programs, etc. Literally nothing mutants have done since the dawn of Krakoa has actually exerted power OVER humans as opposed to just being....displays of power, but guess what? These aren't actually the same thing? You can't BORROW oppressive acts and apply them towards a group who has not actually DONE those things, just because you feel their displays of power make it clear that they COULD do those things. The important part of that equation is still the part where the group with power has not chosen to exert that power over others just because they can.

Like, to be completely honest, these discussions piss me the **** off, because its a little hard not to project on them. I mean, I was gaybashed in college eighteen years ago, and it left me with a disability that drastically affected my life with chronic pain and other issues until I was only FINALLY able to afford a surgery to get a prosthetic that returned me to prior quality of life levels, in this past YEAR. And that's not to mention the fact that y'know, having that surgery and regaining full use of my jaw didn't erase the trauma of having been targeted, singled out, assaulted in a variety of ways and basically left for dead.

So guess what? If I ever saw any of my attackers again, and they were in some kind of trouble or dying, after getting off scot-free with no consequences for the hell they put me through just because they could, because they hated what I was, because they wanted to?

Quite honestly, I'm not sure I would lift a single damn finger to ever help any of them.

But by your logic? That would make me just as bad as them. Go ahead. Tell me how not helping or prioritizing the needs of people who almost killed me for no other reason than they hated my EXISTENCE, where my withholding help or not wanting to prioritize them not because I hate their EXISTENCE but because I hate what they DID to me and how it affected me and how little they cared or that ever affected them....

By all means, PLEASE go right ahead and tell me how those two things are the same, and how that would make me no better than them. How my passive indifference to their fates is LITERALLY THE SAME as their aggressive hate and how their exertion of power and aggression over me affected the entire trajectory of my life for almost two decades, how even now, the memories and repercussions of what they did will never actually fully leave me. How just because something bad happens to them, that I maybe could have stopped, this is no different from the bad things that happened to me because they CHOSE to do those things.

Tell me I'm no different from my own literal oppressors, just because DUE TO THEIR PAST OPPRESSION OF ME, I do not give a **** if they live or die.

Like sure. Tell me those things are the same. I DARE you. Lmao.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

Not only is aggressive hate meet passive indifference NOT the same thing and the very essence of a false equivalency, its not actually even passive indifference?

....

Tell me I'm no different from my own literal oppressors, just because DUE TO THEIR PAST OPPRESSION OF ME, I do not give a **** if they live or die.

Like sure. Tell me those things are the same. I DARE you. Lmao.

I think you are using a false equivalency. Not wanting go out of your way to help the people who did that to you in no way makes you wicked or evil. But that is different than saying you would never help any straight people because some of them are assholes and did something terrible to you. (I don't think that is what you mean, BTW.)

The better analogy to your post would be to fault the mutants for not resurrecting the Rev from the Purifiers or the people who actively persecuted them. No problems there. But to refuse to resurrect kids who died of diseases...that ain't hero sh!t. Is it?

[BobbysWorld]

I think you are using a false equivalency. Not wanting go out of your way to help the people who did that to you in no way makes you wicked or evil. But that is different than saying you would never help any straight people because some of them are assholes and did something terrible to you. (I don't think that is what you mean, BTW.)

The better analogy to your post would be to fault the mutants for not resurrecting the Rev from the Purifiers or the people who actively persecuted them. No problems there. But to refuse to resurrect kids who died of diseases...that ain't hero sh!t. Is it?

Nope, I said what I said, and what I EXPLICITLY said when I talked about people I wouldn't help, is those that actually oppressed and assaulted me. Do not try and make me accountable for your perceiving a generalization that I specifically avoided when I made the point about who I wouldn't help.

Some of you keep creating or perceiving exclusions where no actual exclusions have been made. You're trying to make mutants out to be some kind of bad for going out of their way to exclude human kids who died of disease when that's quite literally not something that's ever been stated or claimed, and is NOT the same thing as mutants at the moment prioritizing the resurrection of mutant kids who died of diseases or oppressive violence or hate-crimes. For every assumption made about how there's some particular scenario in which mutants not resurrecting humans en masse makes them look bad, because it INCLUDES this particular specific scenario, there's an opposite assumption that could be made about some particular scenario in which mutants not resurrecting humans en masse is BECAUSE they're prioritizing a victim of human violence instead.

Meanwhile, if people are going to go ahead and talk in general terms about what mutants en masse owe humanity en masse, it absolutely has to be considered that humanity en masse ABSOLUTELY includes humans who have chosen to initiate violence against mutants, because well, we've literally seen those humans exist in the Marvel U in the present day.

So YOUR generalizations ABSOLUTELY already make the expectation that mutants owe it to humanity in general to resurrect humanity in general just because they can, even though we're all aware that included in THAT general population, is in fact, humans who have deliberately chosen to oppress or wage violence against innocent mutants.

I never said I would never go out of my way to help straight people. Point me to the sentence where I did just that. Thing is, *I* am perfectly aware that not every straight person agrees with or participates in the oppression of LGBTQ+ individuals. I'm perfectly capable of drawing a distinction between a straight ally and a straight oppressor or an innocent straight kid, all while talking about the society-wide fact that in general terms, straight members of society ARE the initiators and actualizers of the oppression of LGBTQ+ communities - all without that actually meaning that I assume every single straight person to be oppressive.

You could similarly draw a distinction between mutants 'owing' it to humanity to resurrect innocent humans, while understanding why they have reason not to want to resurrect humans who have harmed mutants. I did it, you can do it easily too. You and others in thread continually choose not to, creating the impression that you don't see or care all that much about such a distinction being made, and that has as much to do with my response as anything else.

Don't try and act like generalizations are fine when you use them but they're a smoking gun when anyone else does. And don't blame me for your own assumptions, and don't try and build a case out of them. That's a house of cards that I will happily take a wrecking ball to.