Judgement Day (2022)

[Harasar]

To be honest, Krakoa era do highlight the hilarious paradox of superhero universes, in that foreign to keep the world "as out the window" create bizarre logical and ethical issue on long run.
Lot of heroes and villains have already technology for a technical immortality(usually copied blatantly from the research of the Inhuman genetic genius Phaeder<really everyone is luck this guy is not around or could sue everyone for copyright infringement...every one copied his work....everyone!> .
<kind of like why superhero based superhero do not share their amazing technology with he public, or do anything else but the most ridiculous use of it....Shocker vibro gauntlets are awesome tech with potential use in various fields! But nope he use for robberies(even if they are the ultimate lock picking tool and he could open any case note even smashing through it, just vibrating the lock mechanism open...but nope...joke villainous are joke villain you will remain I suppose....)

I would expand it to not only immortality, but everything else, actually. There is a bunch of super geniuses like Richards and Stark, who are smart enough to create weapons to defeat gods, teleporters to other planets and dimensions, time machines, etc., but apparently they are too busy to invent something that would actually help improve ordinary people lives. The most ridiculous example of this IMHO was during Terrigen Cloud time. It happened shortly after the Secret Wars, where these geniuses managed to create vehicle to survive the destruction of the multiverse, but somehow, none of them could do anything about stupid toxic cloud that forcefully transformed people against their will and in some cases killed these people, in addition to poisoning all mutants. For the sake of plot all these geniuses became stupid and could not think about any solution.

[Baron of Faltine]

I would expand it to not only immortality, but everything else, actually. There is a bunch of super geniuses like Richards and Stark, who are smart enough to create weapons to defeat gods, teleporters to other planets and dimensions, time machines, etc., but apparently they are too busy to invent something that would actually help improve ordinary people lives. The most ridiculous example of this IMHO was during Terrigen Cloud time. It happened shortly after the Secret Wars, where these geniuses managed to create vehicle to survive the destruction of the multiverse, but somehow, none of them could do anything about stupid toxic cloud that forcefully transformed people against their will and in some cases killed these people, in addition to poisoning all mutants. For the sake of plot all these geniuses became stupid and could not think about any solution.

Nice example, but the nadir for me and many was the casus belli of OMD....Aunt May got shot....and no one amongst the superheroes that Spidey called for help cannnot do ****, except the devil itself, Mephisto..and the fact was she was dying but not yet dead, so no we cannot bring back the deads thing. Reed opened a hole in heaven to guilt trick Ben back amongst the living. DR. strange fought a cat demon to get an universal medicine to save Wong from Cancer, Tony had made more literal "reboot" of his own persona than anyone else(usually to avoid facing the emotional consequences of the actions he pursued) BUT FOR THEM A SIMPLE BULLET WOUND IS BEYOND THEIR SKILL...

[Harasar]

Nice example, but the nadir for me and many was the casus belli of OMD....Aunt May got shot....and no one amongst the superheroes that Spidey called for help cannnot do ****, except the devil itself, Mephisto..and the fact was she was dying but not yet dead, so no we cannot bring back the deads thing. Reed opened a hole in heaven to guilt trick Ben back amongst the living. DR. strange fought a cat demon to get an universal medicine to save Wong from Cancer, Tony had made more literal "reboot" of his own persona than anyone else(usually to avoid facing the emotional consequences of the actions he pursued) BUT FOR THEM A SIMPLE BULLET WOUND IS BEYOND THEIR SKILL...

Good example of plot-induced stupidity. So many possible solutions, but nope, let's go and make a deal with devil. This kind of idiotic plots kill all interest in reading.

[BroHomo]

You'd think someone like Tony would want to one-up the mutants and find a way to offer it to the world. For a fee, of course.

Riiight Id figured he'd be releasing Ressy2.0 by now lol

Because Marvel typically doesn’t allow massive changes to its world status quo like that

In -universe reAson tho??

I don't think Tony Stark would go for immortality through cloning. He is too egotistical to allow anyone, even another copy of himself, take over his space. Like me, I think Tony wouldn't consider the clones being actual resurrection of the same person for two reasons:

Lol isn't the current iron Man a clone with A.I??
+
The mutants aren't presenting their ressy protocols as immortality, not once has it been shown that anyone would use it as such. Its simply a 'do over' button for a race of people who never seem to be grow/thrive without the deadly hinderebce of humanity

1. you can clone someone who is alive (though they have rules in place not to) and they could stand next to one another and have separate thoughts and senses. That is different than actual resurrection.

Bbuuut even If someone is resurrected the 'right' way you can still clone them.... Spiderman/Ben Riley, Magneto/Joseph Thor/Clor.....what's the actual difference??

2. Wrongslide. Totally different person than Rockslide.

Hows is that the mutants fault and not just an example of how eFFed OtherWorld is?

So I am interesting in what the Eternals actually consider the RPs when they show up for judgement day. It would be a great twist if they show up and the issue isn't this faux immortality,

Maybe its the human life being sacrificed to res an Eternal‽‽

[Gray Lensman]

Nice example, but the nadir for me and many was the casus belli of OMD....Aunt May got shot....and no one amongst the superheroes that Spidey called for help cannnot do ****, except the devil itself, Mephisto..and the fact was she was dying but not yet dead, so no we cannot bring back the deads thing. Reed opened a hole in heaven to guilt trick Ben back amongst the living. DR. strange fought a cat demon to get an universal medicine to save Wong from Cancer, Tony had made more literal "reboot" of his own persona than anyone else(usually to avoid facing the emotional consequences of the actions he pursued) BUT FOR THEM A SIMPLE BULLET WOUND IS BEYOND THEIR SKILL...

I think there is an issue of the Hulk during the Peter David run where Rick brings his (shot by a mugger) girlfriend to Dr. Strange for help.

"But she's only dead!"

She was also the only person in the room who hadn't come back from the dead at least once.

[Devaishwarya]

Plot-induced stupidity and contrivance have always been par the course for comic book stories. Always. And every writer good and bad have used them throughout the decades. In fact I would go so far as to say that they are absolutely necessary to tell these specific types of stories otherwise...we would have no story. The only difference between really bad PIS/C and "really good" PIS/C is execution which comes down to the skill and experience of the writers, by whose hands the former really does kill all interest but the latter drives the story forward and excites.

[Habis]

Lol isn't the current iron Man a clone with A.I??

.

Not exactly cloning, but close... nanomachines or something repaired and rebuilt every dead cell in his body, and a computer downloaded his mind back to his repaired brain...

Tony Stark himself felt angst about being the "real" Tony, of a copy, since, he was dead and the machines assembled a living person from the same molecules, but, is the new Stark the same person, or a new person made from the remains of a deceased person...?

There was a trial about he being the same person as the original Tony Stark, and he lost, mostly because he wasn't sure himself and he didn't defend his case properly...

[Ulysian_Thracs]

The mutants aren't presenting their ressy protocols as immortality, not once has it been shown that anyone would use it as such. Its simply a 'do over' button for a race of people who never seem to be grow/thrive without the deadly hinderebce of humanity

Bbuuut even If someone is resurrected the 'right' way you can still clone them.... Spiderman/Ben Riley, Magneto/Joseph Thor/Clor.....what's the actual difference??

Can you expand on your statement that mutants don’t see RPs as immortality? I’d love to know where you are getting this from, because I don’t read everything they put out and my understanding is that it was sold to the masses as precisely that. Immortality. I would much rather have seen RP be marketed as doing your duty for mutant kind by coming back as a clone to keep helping your people. That would have set up better plotlines of duty and sacrifice if people understood that they actually died and someone new came back than everyone thinking they can just charge headfirst and wake up in a goo bath with no negative effects.

I love this issue because it is a really good philosophical question that comes down to what we mean when we use the word ‘I’? Is it our mortal husk of a body? Most people would say no. It is our mind. But what about our mind without our memories? No. Not really. If I got amnesia, no one would consider me a different person, right?

What we reference with the word ‘I’ is the sentience experiencing the stimuli around us. It means whatever being is thinking the thoughts I am typing and seeing the words come up on the screen is ‘I’. Even if the body is genetically identical and the clone has all my memoires, if it is not the same sentience experiencing the stimuli, it is not the same person or ‘I’. It is a different being. Now, that doesn’t matter (or would even be knowable) to the clone. That new being just popped into existence and would really think it is me. But I think they’ve shown that the original ‘I’ is no more. And that is not immortality. I always read it that the leaders (Chucky in particular) are hoodwinking their people.

Hows is that the mutants fault and not just an example of how eFFed OtherWorld is?

Not saying it's anyone's fault. I actually love this plotline because it puts some limits and challenges on RPs. And Rockslide finally doesn’t have the personality of well…a rock. I love contemplative Wrongslide.

Plot-induced stupidity and contrivance have always been par the course for comic book stories. Always. And every writer good and bad have used them throughout the decades. In fact I would go so far as to say that they are absolutely necessary to tell these specific types of stories otherwise...we would have no story. The only difference between really bad PIS/C and "really good" PIS/C is execution which comes down to the skill and experience of the writers, by whose hands the former really does kill all interest but the latter drives the story forward and excites.

I have always found it amusing how the genius villains wouldn't realize they would make more money as industrialists patenting their creations than they ever would robbing banks. And poor Team Rocket...who have made tons of money doing literally EVERYTHING but stealing Pokemon!

[gonnagiveittoya]

One thing of note is how Scott says the system only works for mutants - since the point of the meeting with Urich is to be honest and up front, I find it unlikely that Scott would be lying about that. Meaning that if the system CAN bring non-mutants back, it is known to very few people - not even the full Council would be aware, since Jean used to be on it, and I'm pretty sure she and Scott talk.

Maybe, but bringing back Wanda still throws a wrench in it. It doesn't seem like they brought her back with an X gene or something, so by all appearances she's still human

[jwatson]

Maybe, but bringing back Wanda still throws a wrench in it. It doesn't seem like they brought her back with an X gene or something, so by all appearances she's still human

People seem to ignore the fact that they were only able to bring Wanda back because she had a backup. Mutant or not in her case was irrelevant at the present because they had a back up of when she was considered one, quicksilver too. So unless they say they have a secret backup they found of all humans I don't know what problem she presents. Beyond that it still wasn't said on panel if the body she had even has an xgene because no one has tested Wanda since to see so it's an assumption based on her memories of what she was and her saying " but I'm not a mutant." That makes most assume and ignore the rest but one could easily just write the body she was brought back in did have one or they can just do like now and don't say one way or another and people just go in what Wanda thinks without in universe science to say yay or nay.

[gonnagiveittoya]

People seem to ignore the fact that they were only able to bring Wanda back because she had a backup. Mutant or not in her case was irrelevant at the present because they had a back up of when she was considered one, quicksilver too. So unless they say they have a secret backup they found of all humans I don't know what problem she presents. Beyond that it still wasn't said on panel if the body she had even has an xgene because no one has tested Wanda since to see so it's an assumption based on her memories of what she was and her saying " but I'm not a mutant." That makes most assume and ignore the rest but one could easily just write the body she was brought back in did have one or they can just do like now and don't say one way or another and people just go in what Wanda thinks without in universe science to say yay or nay.

But the argument here is whether the mutants won't use the protocols on humans or if they can't. Because Scott is specifically saying it doesnt work on humans despite it being used very recently (in-universe anyways) to revive a human.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

People seem to ignore the fact that they were only able to bring Wanda back because she had a backup. Mutant or not in her case was irrelevant at the present because they had a back up of when she was considered one, quicksilver too. So unless they say they have a secret backup they found of all humans I don't know what problem she presents. Beyond that it still wasn't said on panel if the body she had even has an xgene because no one has tested Wanda since to see so it's an assumption based on her memories of what she was and her saying " but I'm not a mutant." That makes most assume and ignore the rest but one could easily just write the body she was brought back in did have one or they can just do like now and don't say one way or another and people just go in what Wanda thinks without in universe science to say yay or nay.

Didn't they not have backups of like 20M mutants who died before Cerebro started making backups (like the 16M in the Genoshan genocide, if I recall) and Wanda just willed all those backups into existence because...PLOT TWIST! If so, can't she do the same for humans?

(Better question: Why does Wanda need the RPs at all? Couldn't she just will all the dead to return fully formed and with their memories, like Minerva from the head of Jove?)

[jwatson]

Didn't they not have backups of like 20M mutants who died before Cerebro started making backups (like the 16M in the Genoshan genocide, if I recall) and Wanda just willed all those backups into existence because...PLOT TWIST! If so, can't she do the same for humans?

(Better question: Why does Wanda need the RPs at all? Couldn't she just will all the dead to return fully formed and with their memories, like Minerva from the head of Jove?)

It was more than just willing it though. Wanda actually killed herself so she could then seperate and spread her essence across the multiverses and retrieve the information on mutants and when she reconnected she brought the with her. Perhaps even making her a nexus for them? And i can't say whether wanda could or could not do that for humans but i can say she didn't. Though it does make sense if wanda destroyed x-genes across the multiverse she would be able to retrieve them and those connected to them.

[jwatson]

But the argument here is whether the mutants won't use the protocols on humans or if they can't. Because Scott is specifically saying it doesnt work on humans despite it being used very recently (in-universe anyways) to revive a human.

But it's your assumption. For all we know they could only create the body for wanda because the mind read as mutant. Maybe because in her own mind she was a mutant and had access to hex powers at one point. who knows. maybe her magic convinced herself she was a mutant to the point that it tricked cerebro but its not like it's a case of wanda was always considered human like most humans. The groundwork was actually laid before to say there were old backups. People can choose to ignore it but in universe at some point cerebro considered wanda a mutant. Whether it pings humans or not it does not consider them that.

[Devaishwarya]

Yupp. Leah made it a point to say that the Wanda resurrected in Trial by Contrivance was a really dated "model" who existed long before she fell in love with Vision and went Disassembled on the Avengers asses. Way back when she was a mutant.