Judgement Day (2022)

[Rift]

My fave non Big Name characters could die and stay dead for years, or even decades without the Protocols. They don't have the luxury of a guaranteed and timely comeback, unlike the main players. For that alone, I want the RP to stay. I don't want more of my faves being used as fodder that'll eventually be forgotten.

Well there's still Rockslide. But one loss is better than like 30,000.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

My fave non Big Name characters could die and stay dead for years, or even decades without the Protocols. They don't have the luxury of a guaranteed and timely comeback, unlike the main players. For that alone, I want the RP to stay. I don't want more of my faves being used as fodder that'll eventually be forgotten.

Well there's still Rockslide. But one loss is better than like 30,000.

This is true. The way Marvel hates the New X-Men/Academy X mutants, we're lucky they didn't kill off ALL of them over the last two decades.

[BroHomo]

As I think the issue's been touched on quite a bit, there is a difference between readers knowing a character can't really die and the character knowing s/he can't really die. It makes the mutants invincible against all enemies as long as they have resurrection, which means any fight they get into is honestly pretty boring, and it makes the characters who used to plan and plot to pull out impossible victories become careless and stupid.

Soooo because now YOU know that THEY "know" THEY won't die it's less entertaining... even tho YOU already knew THEY weren't going to die?

How many times in the last 2-3 years has any of those characters resurrected and died repeatedly?

idk what's the acceptable number of times and different machinations a person can be resurrected from the dead?

My fave non Big Name characters could die and stay dead for years, or even decades without the Protocols. They don't have the luxury of a guaranteed and timely comeback, unlike the main players. For that alone, I want the RP to stay. I don't want more of my faves being used as fodder that'll eventually be forgotten.

Dude forreals Skin & Synch are 2 of the main reasons I became an X-Men fan (+Sunspot and Magik) sooo I'd hate to have that sorta quiet frustration felt by ano reader/fan #nocap

[Ulysian_Thracs]

Soooo because now YOU know that THEY "know" THEY won't die it's less entertaining... even tho YOU already knew THEY weren't going to die?

Maybe. Or maybe its lazy writing that creates no jeopardy or consequences for decisions and actions that lead to bad outcomes. Probelm with that?

[Outburstz]

Alright, let’s reset this because Outburstz decided to skip over a lot of original points to focus entirely on “You just want character deaths because you can’t imagine anything else as stakes!”

Complaint 1: They haven’t utilized any of the unique aspects of resurrection process to let the character have any apprehension about death. Krakoans seemingly have no apprehension if they were the original person, if they are a straight copy, original souls, etc. I know out of universe the soul question got answered (In a way that still probably applies the fact that the Krakoan clones are probably different characters than the originals who died). No one in Krakoa seems to really consider the implications of the system in any real depth, except X-force which has had two characters go at it in different ways. For that reason alone while I don’t like X-force I will always say that Percy was at least willing to tackle these issues. I think it’s also the only book to have had multiple clones of the same X-men still be alive although since most have been used as weapons we haven’t yet had the existential nightmare of three different Quentin Quires running around Krakoa equally convinced they are the actual real Quentin Quire.

So you want the writers who already don't have that many pages to tell what ever story they want to tell to spend time having the characters question the resurrections protocol. Even though that was the whole point of Nightcrawler getting his own book -_-.

And this also touches on what I said earlier about mutant knowing death more they any other group. If a group of people who have experienced the constant hunting and genocide suddenly were getting all those people back just like they remembered no I don't see a bunch of people questioning it. Not just the top tiers but even the lowly mutants getting friends and family back.

One of my favorite issues was seeing Academy X students be there for Sofia's resurrections after they watched all their friends die in that bus explosion

It's already a known fact that the bodies of the dead our left there. X Factor had the graveyard of dead mutants, heck X Factor started with Northstar throwing his sister's dead body at the 5, Empyre had Genosha mutants turned to zombies with one mutant(Exploding boy) having a conversation with himself one brought back one zombie, Quire's body in Russia.

If the conversation isn't going to be tied into the story that they are trying to tell then no I don't think you need mutants questioning it like Nightcrawler was.

Complaint 2: The writers are just going out of their way to bring back death anyway. This is more an Excalibur/Swords of X complaint but it took not much time at all for writers to start carving out exceptions to the resurrection protocols so they could still threaten to permanently delete characters. In this case Otherworld death causing you to come back as not you. I wouldn’t even be as upset with this if it wasn’t for the fact that Howard has been hinting that those who died that way can be brought back since she just killed off Gambit and everyone’s child grooming friend Apocalypse has apparently been prepping a back door. But this is all kinds of nonsensical, because we created a resurrection process, then created an exception, except now it’s not and it’s literally back where the entire thing started. Authors have also created other forms of what is essentially death. The more abstract is the Pit, where they are essentially consigned until being released later. Since the Pit doesn’t allow for outside contact of any kind and your retrieval from it is at the hands of the world most incompetent pair of oligarchs, it is essentially death in the comic book method. You are somewhere else, and you aren’t coming back till an author decides you are. In the same vein Immortal shoving Selene to the back of the queue is also essentially regular death. Although I’ll give the latter two more of a pass because it’s not literally creating super death and super resurrection because even the writers feel they still need a threat of dying in combat meaning something in you know, superhero comics.

First off writing a character out of a story isn't death. The Pit isn't death it is more closely a prison( even though they don't like to use that word) a punishment for breaking the laws. So saying that it is a complaint that the writers have come up with multiple ways to punish characters that doesn't involve "permanent death" is strange to me.

As for the dying on Amenth/Otherworld stuff in my opinion they were aiming for two different things. 1 Trying to show that Otherworld is not just earth and has more unexplained magic stuff to it. 2 Giving writers a chance to change characters and write them how they want.

Complaint 3: Now that they’ve mechanized death, they overabuse. Seen it quite a bit on the boards where a character dies and their fans are saying “Wait, what, how did X die when they survived this, this, and this in the past.” Well the answer is when your characters can come back at any time at all, there’s no need to restrain yourselves in just killing them all of. There’s a reason people joke that X-force is the most incompetent security group in existence.

Isn't that more of a testament to the villains they are fighting? Again this is an another strange complaint to have since as we have established death isn't the end for characters right now. So having your villains kill them is supposed to show have big of a threat they can be. The resurrections allows the mutants to get multiple shots at them.

As a final note, I’m more than a little tired of words being put in my mouth. My original complaint was specifically about the resurrection process and it’s underutilization by the authors and also the mess in Excalibur/KoX. People saying I can’t understand stakes without character death think that just because I say I find the stakes lessened somehow that’s the only part I prize, and at this point I’m pretty sure that has less to do with what I said, and more to do with the idea I was criticizing the current era in any way.

Come now we both know this isn't the only post you have criticized the Krakoa era

[Omega_DCD]

Death in these kinds of superhero comics was already pointless, so I'm actually glad for the Resurrection Protocols mechanic instead of convoluted ways of bringing back popular characters. I mean, two words..."Phoenix Pacemaker"

[Kurolegacy]

Death in these kinds of superhero comics was already pointless, so I'm actually glad for the Resurrection Protocols mechanic instead of convoluted ways of bringing back popular characters. I mean, two words..."Phoenix Pacemaker"

Except this only applies to the X-Books. Everywhere else in the MU, they still have to deal with convoluted ways in which the characters return. Hell, Doctor Strange is currently dead and the ongoing Strange solo features Clea’s goal being to bring him back from the dead.

[Spiderfan001]

My fave non Big Name characters could die and stay dead for years, or even decades without the Protocols. They don't have the luxury of a guaranteed and timely comeback, unlike the main players. For that alone, I want the RP to stay. I don't want more of my faves being used as fodder that'll eventually be forgotten.

Well there's still Rockslide. But one loss is better than like 30,000.

Except they'd still be not used even of they're alive, and if a writer does want them back they would do it before the protocols as they've done so many times

[Doom'nGloom]

Death in these kinds of superhero comics was already pointless, so I'm actually glad for the Resurrection Protocols mechanic instead of convoluted ways of bringing back popular characters. I mean, two words..."Phoenix Pacemaker"

I disagree. I'm not a fan of characters dying and returning eventually over and over again but that doesn't mean death is pointless. Death can be used as a clever narrative tool. Case in point FF #588. It's the issue in Hickman's run right after Johnny's sacrifice to stop the Annihilation Wave from reaching Earth and it deals with superhero community's reaction to Johnny's death. It's one of the best single issues in comics in my opinion. Johnny eventually returned of course but it doesn't take away from the greatness of that issue. Nowadays most deaths in x-men comics get reverted at the end of the same issue. Does that mean a meaningful story can't be wriitten around a characters death with RP in place? No but I think RP are a hindrance since it gave an in-story reason as to why death doesn't matter much in this era both to the readers and to the characters.

[Rift]

Except they'd still be not used even of they're alive, and if a writer does want them back they would do it before the protocols as they've done so many times

Being alive and barely used is still better. I'd rather have 5 years of Hellion and Surge being knocked out in background shots, than having 15 years of Wallflower being dead and almost entirely forgotten, except when she's mentioned by Elixir/Wither or turned into a Bio-Sentinel.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

Being alive and barely used is still better. I'd rather have 5 years of Hellion and Surge being knocked out in background shots, than having 15 years of Wallflower being dead and almost entirely forgotten, except when she's mentioned by Elixir/Wither or turned into a Bio-Sentinel.

This is really the only point that makes me reconsider. I still think it is bad for storytelling purposes to handwave away any consequences for the heroes' actions and mistakes, but it is so good to see the characters we grew up with come back.

[Force de Phenix]

Instead of having them be immortal/unkillable, they should just not kill any characters. Like, they should write other stories, or have them dodge death.

Jean's death was the stupidest thing I've ever read. If they wanted characters around her to grow and establish a new status quo, it was a garbage way to go about it. When Cyclops died, he had his younger version on 2 teams, and was resurrected in one year. Wolverine had Old Man Logan, X-23, a clone, and his son in comics. So even though they "died" they were still there in different teams with solo books.

Or at least have a grace period for when they die. Like a year. The invincible thing is already weak. At least it would give people an incentive to not die. Why be afraid of the Eternals killing them if they can just wait a little and come back? Having two super human groups that can do the same exact thing makes all this anti-climactic.

It's like when people thought Marvel was actually going to kill all the mutants, have Jane Foster be Thor permanently, have Captain America really be a Hydra Agent, and have Iron Man in a coma forever. Like, have these people ever picked up a comic book in their lives? People don't care about this event because they know Marvel isn't really going to kill any group. An Avenger would have to die for anything to make any sense.

[JB]

Except this only applies to the X-Books. Everywhere else in the MU, they still have to deal with convoluted ways in which the characters return. Hell, Doctor Strange is currently dead and the ongoing Strange solo features Clea’s goal being to bring him back from the dead.

She should order a bootleg Krakoan resurrection kit from Amazon. There are plenty of affordable yet unlicensed options but you gotta read the reviews first.

[Habis]

She should order a bootleg Krakoan resurrection kit from Amazon. There are plenty of affordable yet unlicensed options but you gotta read the reviews first.

Tony Stark could clone Dr. Strange, and Clea herself could travel back in time to copy his mind... but Clea is a mystic, and she probably is more concerned about bringing Dr. Strange's soul back than in his body...

[Sylarmax]

The protocols must disappear and they know it, death in the stories ceases to have any impact since it is known that they will return safely.


So thank God the days of resurrection protocols are numbered, which I appreciate.