Judgement Day (2022)

[jwatson]

They also aren't really immortal, since they can't revive by their own natrual powers or ability (passive or active). So Mister Immortal stands as the only truely immortal mutant.

Though granted cases like Iceman are borderline immortality allready. But again it's not a universal mutant thing now. They are depending on a machinery which hasn't been extensively tested beforehand and basicly got rushed into usage.
Somewhere along the line cracks, issues or downright harmfull side effects are very likely to show up.

Yes they will show up in Gillien run, under gillien pen, who is writing judgement day that has now been renamed as a mutant story. Where did i get it wrong? Well not that you said i got it wrong. I mean no one is giving me ammo this is what gillien has alluded to. Mutant supremacist, 12th century crusaders, only the darker side of the council will be explored,, his pet hope on the council. It's right there. The solicitations.

So they will proably retcon the cancerverse thing. Hope who was doing resurrections and getting stronger and mutants getting stronger all of a sudden under his pen there will be a problem. Resurrections have been happening since before krakoa went live and now all of a sudden this event will pull that into question. LMAO. yeah well i'm going back outside before it gets dark. lol

[The tall man]

Good grief! Mutants are on top of the MU right now, they have everything going their way. They are the dominant power both on earth and the Sol system, possibly on their way to becoming a galactic power. They are functionally immortal and all previous deceased mutants are in line to be resurrected, yet all that is not enough for some. Some seem to think mutants must be treated with kid gloves, nothing bad must be said or done against them, it reeks of insecurity. Mutants must now always be seen as being in the right and all others are the aggressors. Gillen as stated the Eternals are the villains and he is the writer of a major x-book but some don't believe it. I'm reminded of a old thread on the x-boards called the "x complex", where every perceived slight, insult, shade or storyline that didn't favor the X-men or x-characters were discussed adnuesium. Even when the X-men are at the pinnacle people still see doom and gloom. Yes sometimes the writing will favor the X-men and sometimes it will not, it's called being even-handed and not being biased against one side. Does anyone expect the X-men will be dominant forever both in universe and out, does anyone think that mutants won't face challenges or that Marvel will prioritize them over their other properties? You think going forward that the Avengers, FF, Eternals, Spiderman, Hulk, ect will be written as the villains to prop up the X-men? Those properties have their fan bases as well, is marvel going to throw them under the bus for the benefit of mutants and if they don't is that some sign of Marvel's hatred of the X-men and a ploy to destroy the franchise? I'm sure the complex thread would think so. I have hope that Gillen will be even-handed during this event despite his claims of Eternals being the villains. But apparently that is not good enough for some. The X-men must be unequivocally the heroes of the event and the Eternals must absolutely be the villains. No middle ground or its seen as the X-men getting screwed by Marvel. I don't know how one can cope with being a fan of a comic franchise if they are always defensive about anything bad happening to their characters. It's almost like they think the Krakoa should be put in a velvet box and treated with care.

[BroHomo]

6007813[/URL]]I would believe that more if there was even an Eternals title going during this event which so far there isn't.

Buuut there is?

6008001[/URL]]They also aren't really immortal, since they can't revive by their own natrual powers or ability (passive or active). So Mister Immortal stands as the only truely immortal mutant.

Though granted cases like Iceman are borderline immortality allready. But again it's not a universal mutant thing now. They are depending on a machinery which hasn't been extensively tested beforehand and basicly got rushed into usage.
Somewhere along the line cracks, issues or downright harmfull side effects are very likely to show up.

Did you get 'mutants' and the 'eternals' mixed up??

[Saithor]

Buuut there is?

Did you get 'mutants' and the 'eternals' mixed up??

He did not, as Mr. Immortal is the only one who can come back by his own individual power. The Five don’t count as this since they can’t revive by their own powers along. They can do a cloning-brain transfer process with all five of them together and a combination of technology, but that is not bringing mutants back with a single mutants power

[Grunty]

(...) So they will proably retcon the cancerverse thing. Hope who was doing resurrections and getting stronger and mutants getting stronger all of a sudden under his pen there will be a problem. Resurrections have been happening since before krakoa went live and now all of a sudden this event will pull that into question. LMAO. yeah well i'm going back outside before it gets dark. lol

Keep in mind those are isolated cases of ressurections limited to unique individuals or groups and performed under special circumstances or tied to serious flaws which would prevent their usage for everyone. Because they can't be casualy relied upon both to preverse a sense of drama and stakes and because ressurection is predominantly a problematic or flawed system in fiction for the same reason.

The reader might know that a popular character will return anyway under these special circumstances if said taboo had been broken, but the characters themself should always belief it could be their last time.

So a casual mass revival system for everyone who belongs to a certain large group of people is either going to break down sooner or later, or come with serious flaws which will make the system problematic, unreliable or flat out unusuable.

What flaws does the current system of the mutants have? If it has none, you can bet it will have them sooner or later. That's not a strike against the mutants themself, but the narrative rules snapping back to bring things back in line in order to preserve drama and because it thins out the story too much.

Named characters miraculously came back to life before and they will do so again. The whole Earth and all people on it could die in a massive super nova, but the heros will find a way to reverse it or bring them all back. But a system which just brings anyone of a specific group back automatically with no flaw involved is harmfull to narrative and drama. So it can't last.

In the end, i think you should consider the idea that Hickman himself planned this whole system to have flaws, which would eventualy be revealed and lead to it's break down. Since that's what these stories are all about.
All of this was setup to be temporary. All the hurray, the out of nowhere neat things, the hidden nation of ancient super duper mutants, the character changes and ego trips. A loan given to the mutants to push them from zero to world power for the sake of one specific story. But one that will need to be paid back eventualy with interests.
From where you're sitting it must seem like an 18-carat run of bad luck. Truth is... the game was rigged from the start.

That being said. I hope the system works long enough to get the genoshians back before it breaks down. I'd like to see pre-morrison and M-Day numbers and presence of mutants back in the MU.

[jwatson]

Keep in mind those are isolated cases of ressurections limited to unique individuals or groups and performed under special circumstances or tied to serious flaws which would prevent their usage for everyone. Because they can't be casualy relied upon both to preverse a sense of drama and stakes and because ressurection is predominantly a problematic or flawed system in fiction for the same reason.

The reader might know that a popular character will return anyway under these special circumstances if said taboo had been broken, but the characters themself should always belief it could be their last time.

So a casual mass revival system for everyone who belongs to a certain large group of people is either going to break down sooner or later, or come with serious flaws which will make the system problematic, unreliable or flat out unusuable.

What flaws does the current system of the mutants have? If it has none, you can bet it will have them sooner or later. That's not a strike against the mutants themself, but the narrative rules snapping back to bring things back in line in order to preserve drama and because it thins out the story too much.

Named characters miraculously came back to life before and they will do so again. The whole Earth and all people on it could die in a massive super nova, but the heros will find a way to reverse it or bring them all back. But a system which just brings anyone of a specific group back automatically with no flaw involved is harmfull to narrative and drama. So it can't last.

In the end, i think you should consider the idea that Hickman himself planned this whole system to have flaws, which would eventualy be revealed and lead to it's break down. Since that's what these stories are all about.
All of this was setup to be temporary. All the hurray, the out of nowhere neat things, the hidden nation of ancient super duper mutants, the character changes and ego trips. A loan given to the mutants to push them from zero to world power for the sake of one specific story. But one that will need to be paid back eventualy with interests.
From where you're sitting it must seem like an 18-carat run of bad luck. Truth is... the game was rigged from the start.

That being said. I hope the system works long enough to get the genoshians back before it breaks down. I'd like to see pre-morrison and M-Day numbers and presence of mutants back in the MU.

Just wait until you see how the save points gillien is so excited about gets used to show how mutants have manipulated events this whole time via sinister. The first reveal didn't go so well so he killed a moira. lol. i'd rather sit it out and be wrong, can always read later, than to be manipulated.

[BroHomo]

He did not, as Mr. Immortal is the only one who can come back by his own individual power. The Five don’t count as this since they can’t revive by their own powers along. They can do a cloning-brain transfer process with all five of them together and a combination of technology, but that is not bringing mutants back with a single mutants power

Buuut he literally described the Eternals resurrection process:
Artificial/Outside resurrection
Harmful side effects

[Grunty]

Just wait until you see how the save points gillien is so excited about gets used to show how mutants have manipulated events this whole time via sinister. The first reveal didn't go so well so he killed a moira. lol. i'd rather sit it out and be wrong, can always read later, than to be manipulated.

Mutants collectively or a small number of mutants who see themself as their people's leaders? Because nothing in the current status quo seems to be ever done by the nation mutants collectively (except that one election of an X-men team which was all "tell don't show/explore") or via a major number, but rather a small handfull of individuals who have the meta-physical, secret, economical or political power to do so.

Using "humans" or "mutants" as collective term when refering to the actions of a few individuals, not backed and/or approved by many of them, harbors the danger of problematic generalization.

On the other note, perhaps waiting it out on the side, rather than getting invested in something which will likely make one angry or disapointed, might indeed be the wiser choice here.

[Saithor]

Buuut he literally described the Eternals resurrection process:
Artificial/Outside resurrection
Harmful side effects

He said he expects side effects to show up sooner or later because of how narrative works. That doesn't necessarily mean the same as the Eternals system. And it did used to have side effects, with the memory consumption thing, until they revealed that was Onslaught and now when mutants come back they have all their memories regardless of the back-up's date because....reasons.

[jwatson]

Mutants collectively or a small number of mutants who see themself as their people's leaders? Because nothing in the current status quo seems to be ever done by the nation mutants collectively (except that one election of an X-men team which was all "tell don't show/explore") or via a major number, but rather a small handfull of individuals who have the meta-physical, secret, economical or political power to do so.

Using "humans" or "mutants" as collective term when refering to the actions of a few individuals, not backed and/or approved by many of them, harbors the danger of problematic generalization.

On the other note, perhaps waiting it out on the side, rather than getting invested in something which will likely make one angry or disapointed, might indeed be the wiser choice here.

I'm fully expecting. You thinking mutants gave them drugs because they love humanity. No no no, sinister reset the first reveal because they were angry so what actually happened was he told them perhaps we should give them a gift. and so it worked the next time.

Oh you think terraforming mars didn't end with arrako destroyed. no sir, it did, but sinister reset it and was like lets throw a party. lol but time will tell.

you don't think the first terraforming didn't end in disaster, well lets see what our reset plot device of the week has to say.

[Jv565]

I honestly think the Eternals are going to be presented as the bad guys in this.

[jwatson]

How come the avengers aren't judging orichis. It's kind of funny that it's a shared universe when everyone is reacting to direct mutant problems or rather perceived problems caused by mutants. but no one on the other side, not a single team, not thor, ff, no one knows about orichis and there is no event to attack that problem. hmm. somebody dropping the ball. I mean that's if marvel is about that U.N.I.T.Y. that's a unity.

[Grunty]

I'm fully expecting. You thinking mutants gave them drugs because they love humanity. No no no, sinister reset the first reveal because they were angry so what actually happened was he told them perhaps we should give them a gift. and so it worked the next time.

Oh you think terraforming mars didn't end with arrako destroyed. no sir, it did, but sinister reset it and was like lets throw a party. lol but time will tell.

you don't think the first terraforming ended in disaster, well lets see what our reset plot device of the week has to say.

Allright i get what you mean and wouldn't find that kind of retcon great either.

Though i feel the medicine was always supposed to represent Xavier under Moira X's guidance (and knowledge given to her by Wolverine in Life 9) bribing the rest of humanity into tollerating their new state. Playing on the other nations sense of realpolitik. Rather than selling it out of love or for the betterment of mankind.
Therefor i put that square into Moira X's play book and her manipulation of Xavier, rather than Sinister.

But yes, everything else being actualy Sinister's doing would feel lame to me aswell.

And now that i wrote this i had to remember the theory from 2 years ago that Life 9 Sinister might have orchestrated everything from the Gen 4 Chimeras going god crazy to facking his own death and might suddently show up in 616... and if the 3 medical drugs are actualy his creation from Life 9... this might really get annoying to anyone who isn't a Sinister fan...

"It was me X-men! It was me all along, X-men! You all bought it!"

[Saithor]

How come the avengers aren't judging orichis. It's kind of funny that it's a shared universe when everyone is reacting to direct mutant problems or rather perceived problems caused by mutants. but no one on the other side, not a single team, not thor, ff, no one knows about orichis and there is no event to attack that problem. hmm. somebody dropping the ball. I mean that's if marvel is about that U.N.I.T.Y. that's a unity.

Okay, I'm just going to ask this once: Does this forum want every X-man problem solved by the Avengers? Because there is this constant discourse that they need to do more for mutantkind and that they never help out (They did help out against Bastion iirc, Thor helped during the Mutant Massacre, etc.), yet I get the feeling if every time the X-men faced a front it ended with Thor punching it in the face we'd get new complaints that the mutant characters are getting sidelined for the X-books to feature non-mutant heroes as the expense of the X-men.

Never mind these books already have way too many mutant characters that could use some attention and have fans, and adding in what is the FF/Doctor Strange/Avengers/Defenders/Metal Men/Challengers of the Unknown/Justice League/Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew/Scooby doo and the Gang/Invincible/The Umbrella Academy are doing for each and every one of these events is going to end up being not needed. Unless the author plans for them to actually contribute, then there inclusion is a waste. If Doctor Strange shows up for a few panels only for whatever he attempts to not work, you aren't getting much out of it. The Bastion example actually did work out because it was to build up just how bad of a threat Bastion was, but even there I would have preferred more focus on you know, the actual mutant characters who the books focuses on and regularly stars?

And lets be clear, one of the seven or eight times that Krakoa sent X-force to give the daily gift of adamantium to Orchis, the writers could have chosen to have that be some allies. They did in fact have it be allies twice when they sent the Brood and Technet, so that could have been one of the non-mutant hero times. But the writers chose not to do that.

This isn't even getting into the editorial issues.

[jwatson]

Okay, I'm just going to ask this once: Does this forum want every X-man problem solved by the Avengers? Because there is this constant discourse that they need to do more for mutantkind and that they never help out (They did help out against Bastion iirc, Thor helped during the Mutant Massacre, etc.), yet I get the feeling if every time the X-men faced a front it ended with Thor punching it in the face we'd get new complaints that the mutant characters are getting sidelined for the X-books to feature non-mutant heroes as the expense of the X-men.

Never mind these books already have way too many mutant characters that could use some attention and have fans, and adding in what is the FF/Doctor Strange/Avengers/Defenders/Metal Men/Challengers of the Unknown/Justice League/Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew/Scooby doo and the Gang/Invincible/The Umbrella Academy are doing for each and every one of these events is going to end up being not needed. Unless the author plans for them to actually contribute, then there inclusion is a waste. If Doctor Strange shows up for a few panels only for whatever he attempts to not work, you aren't getting much out of it. The Bastion example actually did work out because it was to build up just how bad of a threat Bastion was, but even there I would have preferred more focus on you know, the actual mutant characters who the books focuses on and regularly stars?

And lets be clear, one of the seven or eight times that Krakoa sent X-force to give the daily gift of adamantium to Orchis, the writers could have chosen to have that be some allies. They did in fact have it be allies twice when they sent the Brood and Technet, so that could have been one of the non-mutant hero times. But the writers chose not to do that.

This isn't even getting into the editorial issues.

sure why not. we are always saddled with their problems maybe they can give a few solutions. we dealt with the cloud, the registration, and everything in between. Why is it okay for them to invade our books for answers but never solutions. I mean people complain it takes away from Thor story but did one X-fan ask for an eternals story or mutants to be judged by them. Why isn't it a fair situation on both sides.

How come no judgement day avengers, hulk, thor, Cap, Ironman, but yet they all over the covers invading our books again. But then once again the other has to pick up the slack. then when they get dragged for getting forced on us but not having enough space in their books for mutants somehow we the problem. I truly don't understand how people don't get that.

i read both sides and it's about simple fairness and the optics and how one side of the marvel universe always seems to get all the benefits but never have to diversify, barely welcomes lgbt characters but the franchise that does is always the victim of having our stories overtaken. Why is it different? i really wish one person could honestly answer that for me. We want to enjoy our stories the same way you guys do, we pay for our stories the same way you guys do. I've read many marvel books and the only thing so far about krakoa on the other side has been skepticism and negativity and now here we go again. I just want to know why.