Omega Level Telepathy

[Mercury]

What's the new frontier for Omega Level telepaths (OLTs)? I think it's being able to use their telepathic abilities on a multiversal and multidimensional level. (This is something they've already begun to lightly explore with Jean [see her feats against Knull in King in Black #4 and Nightmare in X-Men #4].) OLTs should be capable of telepathically communicating with and influencing characters across multiple universes and multiple dimensions to varying degrees at will, including mortals and their alternate versions, gods, elder gods, proemial gods, extra-dimensionals, cosmic entities, cosmic forces, and cosmic abstracts.

Thoughts?

[Spiderfan001]

God no, not w/out specific power-ups/boosts/etc.

That would make them fundamentally unusable on an Earthly scale and the multiverse is about Earths/Universes that are different from one another and usually have no interaction and having TP's just being able to communicate b/w parallel universes would be broken

Inter-planetary level is a good peak for now.Easily being able to talk to an entire planet or across planets is amazing

Also Jean only peeped in Knull's head for moments and then passed out, and Nightmare wasn't in his own dimension.They are still fantastic feats

Cosmic abstracts are on a level that shouldn't be able to influenced in the slightest by any TP w/massive plot boosts.I'd argue the same for cosmic entities and forces.

[Rift]

Uniting every sentient mind in the universe into a hivemind. No more war, no more conflict. Just everyone coming to understand each other, sharing their struggles and hopes, and embracing Julian Keller.

If they wanna go really wild with the above idea, it could lead to mutants forming a Dominion on their own terms.

[Spiderfan001]

Uniting every sentient mind in the universe into a hivemind. No more war, no more conflict. Just everyone coming to understand each other, sharing their struggles and hopes, and embracing Julian Keller.

If they wanna go really wild with the above idea, it could lead to mutants forming a Dominion on their own terms.

Now This I can get behind

[Mercury]

God no, not w/out specific power-ups/boosts/etc. That would make them fundamentally unusable on an Earthly scale and the multiverse is about Earths/Universes that are different from one another and usually have no interaction and having TP's just being able to communicate b/w parallel universes would be broken

An intelligent writer could make it work without resorting to making them all powerful.

Inter-planetary level is a good peak for now.Easily being able to talk to an entire planet or across planets is amazing

It would be amazing.

Also Jean only peeped in Knull's head for moments and then passed out, and Nightmare wasn't in his own dimension.They are still fantastic feats

She didn't just peep into Knull's mind. Firstly, she bypassed whatever omniscience and psychic defenses he might possess by remaining undetectable while she communicated with Dylan, who Knull had trapped in “an orb of symbiotes” which he created and with which he had surrounded them both. Secondly, after directing Dylan and coordinating a team that included Dr. Strange, Cyclops, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Thor, Namor, Spider-Man, and Storm to attack Knull, she penetrated and ransacked his mind for a few pages worth of his history, which included her discovery of the "God of Light." Finally, she never fully passed out, but was overwhelmed by what she saw and collapsed--she did penetrate the mind of a god/cosmic being, after all--before Silver Surfer responded to her.





As for Nightmare, she yanked him out of his own realm--he was in the process of causing Wolverine's nightmare--before sending him on his way.

Cosmic abstracts are on a level that shouldn't be able to influenced in the slightest by any TP w/massive plot boosts.I'd argue the same for cosmic entities and forces.

If not influenced by, they should be easily accessible to Omega Level telepaths.

[Spiderfan001]

An intelligent writer could make it work without resorting to making them all powerful.

Yeah, specific boosts and power ups would be that way
I don't think there is a reliable way to nerf Omega TP's for most of their stories and then have them pull off such feats.Like Storm I get it's because her powers if unleashed might cause havoc to the environment so she keeps it down.We've seen and will very likely continue to see some mortals resist Omega TP, and Psi-dampners are still a massive thing.

She didn't just peep into Knull's mind. Firstly, she bypassed whatever omniscience and psychic defenses he might possess by remaining undetectable while she communicated with Dylan, who Knull had trapped in “an orb of symbiotes” which he created and with which he had surrounded them both. Secondly, after directing Dylan and coordinating a team that included Dr. Strange, Cyclops, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Thor, Namor, Spider-Man, and Storm to attack Knull, she penetrated and ransacked his mind for a few pages worth of his history, which included her discovery of the "God of Light." Finally, she never fully passed out, but was overwhelmed by what she saw and collapsed--she did penetrate the mind of a god/cosmic being, after all--before Silver Surfer responded to her.

It would be a massive feat if we had seen some or any feats for Knull's Telepathic resistance, even Daredevil resisted his symbiotic control enough to buy time to free himself.Still very impressive

As for Nightmare, she yanked him out of his own realm--he was in the process of causing Wolverine's nightmare--before sending him on his way.

There's a difference b/w Dreams and Dream dimension

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Dream_Dimension

Yanking Nightmare out of Wolverine's mind is a massively impressive feat but Nightmare is significantly weaker when not in his Nightmare world part of the dream dimension.

If not influenced by, they should be easily accessible to Omega Level telepaths.

Not the abstracts.Mortal TP's no matter how powerful accessing cosmic abstracts is broken.Maybe the others though, depends on their power levels

[Mercury]

It would be a massive feat if we had seen some or any feats for Knull's Telepathic resistance, even Daredevil resisted his symbiotic control enough to buy time to free himself.Still very impressive

Considering the fact that he’s a god and either nigh-omniscient or simply omniscient, Jean’s feat was massive. She not only bypassed his defenses, she eluded his symbiotic control even while in his mind.

There's a difference b/w Dreams and Dream dimension…Yanking Nightmare out of Wolverine's mind is a massively impressive feat but Nightmare is significantly weaker when not in his Nightmare world part of the dream dimension.

I’m failing to see the difference. Per the link you shared, “The Dream Dimension was one of the Splinter Realms, as well as an astral realm, and a dimension linked to and shaped by humanity's collective unconscious (it is literally a manifestation of the collective psyche of mankind). It could be accessed through dreams or astral projection.”

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Dream_Dimension

Per Wikipedia, “[Nightmare] is the evil ruler of a ‘Dream Dimension’, where tormented humans are brought during their sleep. He roams this realm on his demonic black horned horse named Dreamstalker.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigh...Marvel_Comics)

Not the abstracts.Mortal TP's no matter how powerful accessing cosmic abstracts is broken.Maybe the others though, depends on their power levels

Omega Level Mutants have “an undefinable upper limit of [their] powers specific classification. The sky and beyond is the limit.

‘Night.

[Spiderfan001]

Double post
Ignore

[Spiderfan001]

Considering the fact that he’s a god and either nigh-omniscient or simply omniscient, Jean’s feat was massive. She not only bypassed his defenses, she eluded his symbiotic control even while in his mind.

Again he has almost no feats.But I dug around and I have one:-



Moondragon connected to him and felt his emotion w/ relative ease.She says it was deafening which I guess got Jean.Although Jean managed to make sense of it's thoughts so there's that.
Either way 2 Telepaths have shown they can affect Knull, and Daredevil fought of his influence...

I’m failing to see the difference. Per the link you shared, “The Dream Dimension was one of the Splinter Realms, as well as an astral realm, and a dimension linked to and shaped by humanity's collective unconscious (it is literally a manifestation of the collective psyche of mankind). It could be accessed through dreams or astral projection.”

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Dream_Dimension

Per Wikipedia, “[Nightmare] is the evil ruler of a ‘Dream Dimension’, where tormented humans are brought during their sleep. He roams this realm on his demonic black horned horse named Dreamstalker.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigh...Marvel_Comics)

It's simple

"Nightmare is a Class Three Demon who is able to capture a sleeping person's astral form and bring it to his realm. There they are tormented in various ways as he chooses,he can also possess people to work through them."

He hadn't brought any of them back into his realm

"Weaknesses
Nightmare is much weaker when outside of his realm, and can be overcome while in it by a being who has completely conquered their fear."

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Night..._and_Abilities

It's all there.His only major weakness is that he's far weaker outside his own realm than when in it...

Omega Level Mutants have “an undefinable upper limit of [their] powers specific classification. The sky and beyond is the limit.

‘Night.

Yeah, and the Hulk has limitless power and has connections to TOAA/TOBA which is more than omega level.Even Spider-man himself has discovered and harnessed Beyond Omega level energies.
Neither of them are on the level of cosmic abstracts.

Omega is more of a "limits that we haven't found" than "limitless".If it wasn't then reality warpers alone would make Arrako, there would be no need for all the other omegas.

Jean in this current era can't go through Magneto's defenses when he's laid down w/out his helmet or go through Psi-dampners.You can't have a character who can w/out any plot devices influence/access cosmic abstracts and yet can't pull these thing off.(I'm not saying she shouldn't be able to do these things btw, I'm saying most writers will have to do these because she's already working on levels below her.Same way Spider-man can't OHKO most of his Rogue's even though he clearly has the feats to)

Oh also for more Knull things:-

"Before anyone starts with the "huh, he goes from Big Bang to sun level, must be jobbing lel" Note that that Knull was nerfed unknowingly as the unique energy connection he had to the headless Celestial (the one he killed way back last year) which provided power to the All-Black, as well as him in general. Therefore, anything after the Cosmic Thor fight is Knull nerfed. (King in Black- Return of the Valkyries #4)"

Jean's TP feat happens in KIB 4 after the fight w/ Cosmic Thor(KIB 3), and he'd lost a lot of power as mentioned above.This just like Nightmare not being in his realm when facing of w/ Jean should be noted when power-scaling her feats.

Also Thor struck one of Knull's symbiotes with so much power that Knull got overpowered and lost his control over millions of symbiotes.This is what I'd call a massive feat against Knull's psyche




Storm herself was overwhelmed by Knull's forces and everyone knows she's one of the strongest omegas our their so there's that.Storm's lightning even hit Knull's dragon but Knull felt no pain other than saying "hemm, hello little light".

Further showing being omega doesn't mean one is limitless or even the strongest.Amongst mutants I'd agree but just like there are beings stronger than Hulk, there are people stronger than Omegas in their field

If you need more scans for some of these statements let me know

[Reigna]

Again he has almost no feats.But I dug around and I have one:-



Moondragon connected to him and felt his emotion w/ relative ease.She says it was deafening which I guess got Jean.Although Jean managed to make sense of it's thoughts so there's that.
Either way 2 Telepaths have shown they can affect Knull, and Daredevil fought of his influence...



It's simple

"Nightmare is a Class Three Demon who is able to capture a sleeping person's astral form and bring it to his realm. There they are tormented in various ways as he chooses,he can also possess people to work through them."

He hadn't brought any of them back into his realm

"Weaknesses
Nightmare is much weaker when outside of his realm, and can be overcome while in it by a being who has completely conquered their fear."

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Night..._and_Abilities

It's all there.His only major weakness is that he's far weaker outside his own realm than when in it...



Yeah, and the Hulk has limitless power and has connections to TOAA/TOBA which is more than omega level.Even Spider-man himself has discovered and harnessed Beyond Omega level energies.
Neither of them are on the level of cosmic abstracts.

Omega is more of a "limits that we haven't found" than "limitless".If it wasn't then reality warpers alone would make Arrako, there would be no need for all the other omegas.

Jean in this current era can't go through Magneto's defenses when he's laid down w/out his helmet or go through Psi-dampners.You can't have a character who can w/out any plot devices influence/access cosmic abstracts and yet can't pull these thing off.(I'm not saying she shouldn't be able to do these things btw, I'm saying most writers will have to do these because she's already working on levels below her.Same way Spider-man can't OHKO most of his Rogue's even though he clearly has the feats to)

Oh also for more Knull things:-

"Before anyone starts with the "huh, he goes from Big Bang to sun level, must be jobbing lel" Note that that Knull was nerfed unknowingly as the unique energy connection he had to the headless Celestial (the one he killed way back last year) which provided power to the All-Black, as well as him in general. Therefore, anything after the Cosmic Thor fight is Knull nerfed. (King in Black- Return of the Valkyries #4)"

Jean's TP feat happens in KIB 4 after the fight w/ Cosmic Thor(KIB 3), and he'd lost a lot of power as mentioned above.This just like Nightmare not being in his realm when facing of w/ Jean should be noted when power-scaling her feats.

Also Thor struck one of Knull's symbiotes with so much power that Knull got overpowered and lost his control over millions of symbiotes.This is what I'd call a massive feat against Knull's psyche




Storm herself was overwhelmed by Knull's forces and everyone knows she's one of the strongest omegas our their so there's that.Storm's lightning even hit Knull's dragon but Knull felt no pain other than saying "hemm, hello little light".

Further showing being omega doesn't mean one is limitless or even the strongest.Amongst mutants I'd agree but just like there are beings stronger than Hulk, there are people stronger than Omegas in their field

If you need more scans for some of these statements let me know

Ohk so I have to stop you there. The term Hickman used wasn't undefined(hasn't been defined), he used undefinable (cannot be defined). Other cannon text have used words like immeasurable (synch about jeans telepathy), incalculable (marvel handbook about Storm's power) and limitless (Dr nemesis to legion) to describe omega level power. It is literally power that borders the infinite or for all intended purposes is infinite in its specific classification. Jean on the cerebro scan registers as a 7 for mental powers meaning infinite mental powers ala telepathy.
Now the only difference is that unlike cosmic abstracts and gods and such, all omega mutants are basically average humans with incalculable psionic power. Meaning there is a limit to how much power their body can take not to their power level. Reality warping is a very funny power because it is op yet nerfed at the same time save for the no more mutant spell, no reality warping on a massive scale has really ever stuck. and they needed arrako to actually be self sustaining hence, why they brought in omega mutants of varying powersets to terraform the planet. Because though a reality warper can do it all cannon has shown that it won't last as long. Proteus can do it but his area of effect is very localised like literally he can only affect a city sized area with his power and his power goes once he stops thinking about it. Then we have Jaime who uses quantum strings to warp reality and he is one thing very unreliable along with the fact that ressurecting a whole world would require a shit ton of quantum strings pulling something I don't think his body can handle. Then we have legion whose abilities depend on which personality is in charge and unless we have the reality warping personality there that ain't happening. You could say hope but she would need any one of the already established reality warpers around her to do her thing and she would face the same challenges Proteus lack of permernence and scale, straining her body with Jaime and eating for the personality to show up in legion.


Also I disagree with you a good writer can make even an omnipotent being relatable and work in a confined story. The problem is getting a good writer because there just arent many. comics mainly because of battle forums have simply become a dick swinging contest and just because my fave is more powerful automatically means they are better which is ridiculous. In truth if a writer wants they can make spiderman beat the one above all still won't change a thing that the one above all is literally the one above all in marvel even spiderman. Unless they retcon that one too.


Also lastly didn't knull say that storm was his most powerful new avatar in savage avengers issue #19? Something that made fans ask the writer Duggan whether this means she is more powerful than strange, invisible woman, Thor and the like to which he said she is the omegas omega? Doesn't this even say something that the inherent power of omega level Mutants is sooo great it impresses even knull a being who saw sentry and was like *rip* then ate his better half.

[Spiderfan001]

Ohk so I have to stop you there. The term Hickman used wasn't undefined(hasn't been defined), he used undefinable (cannot be defined). Other cannon text have used words like immeasurable (synch about jeans telepathy), incalculable (marvel handbook about Storm's power) and limitless (Dr nemesis to legion) to describe omega level power. It is literally power that borders the infinite or for all intended purposes is infinite in its specific classification. Jean on the cerebro scan registers as a 7 for mental powers meaning infinite mental powers ala telepathy.
Now the only difference is that unlike cosmic abstracts and gods and such, all omega mutants are basically average humans with incalculable psionic power. Meaning there is a limit to how much power their body can take not to their power level. Reality warping is a very funny power because it is op yet nerfed at the same time save for the no more mutant spell, no reality warping on a massive scale has really ever stuck. and they needed arrako to actually be self sustaining hence, why they brought in omega mutants of varying powersets to terraform the planet. Because though a reality warper can do it all cannon has shown that it won't last as long. Proteus can do it but his area of effect is very localised like literally he can only affect a city sized area with his power and his power goes once he stops thinking about it. Then we have Jaime who uses quantum strings to warp reality and he is one thing very unreliable along with the fact that ressurecting a whole world would require a shit ton of quantum strings pulling something I don't think his body can handle. Then we have legion whose abilities depend on which personality is in charge and unless we have the reality warping personality there that ain't happening. You could say hope but she would need any one of the already established reality warpers around her to do her thing and she would face the same challenges Proteus lack of permernence and scale, straining her body with Jaime and eating for the personality to show up in legion.


Also I disagree with you a good writer can make even an omnipotent being relatable and work in a confined story. The problem is getting a good writer because there just arent many. comics mainly because of battle forums have simply become a dick swinging contest and just because my fave is more powerful automatically means they are better which is ridiculous. In truth if a writer wants they can make spiderman beat the one above all still won't change a thing that the one above all is literally the one above all in marvel even spiderman. Unless they retcon that one too.

I can agree w/ this, they have no limit but there's only so much they can use in their mortal vessels.Either way in practice that means they do have limits and we've seen them multiples times in krakoa era alone.And I do stand by the fact omega level Telepaths can't/shouldn't be able to influence abstract entities.

Again, I agree in a confined story.But having that as Jean's normal power level will never work unless they change her setting entirely.

[thechronic92]

Why is Thor allowed to be strong but Jean has to be nerfed?

[Reigna]

I can agree w/ this, they have no limit but there's only so much they can use in their mortal vessels.Either way in practice that means they do have limits and we've seen them multiples times in krakoa era alone.And I do stand by the fact omega level Telepaths can't/shouldn't be able to influence abstract entities.

Again, I agree in a confined story.But having that as Jean's normal power level will never work unless they change her setting entirely.

I mean teen jean was able to use her telepathy to suck power from an entire planet multiple heralds and the pheonix at once! Now I do not know if this is still cannon but she was able to go into this pink form that allowed her to rob psychic power from all those around her on a basically universal scale and use that power to amp her telekinesis to omega levels. She used this power to stale mate galdiator, knock back galactus and fight four silver surfers. Now if this is still canon then it has happened in a story and trust me that book was very compelling in how it handled jean. She had a lot of power but it was secondary to her charachter.

[Spiderfan001]

Why is Thor allowed to be strong but Jean has to be nerfed?

She doesn't...
Thor can't attack or hurt cosmic abstracts either

The og point was Omega level TP's should be able to do so, to which I said that doesn't add up.In rebuttal I was told Omega level's have no limits, so I showed that they clearly do.And that other "gods" like Thor have done things that Omega's can't.
Hence the argument that Omega's are limitless is only a theoretical one, and doesn't work when used to justify the original statement

[Reigna]

Why is Thor allowed to be strong but Jean has to be nerfed?

This reminded me of the time she became pheonix when Claremont wanted her to beat Thor to show how powerful she had become, but the execs were against it saying a woman shouldn't be able to beat Thor so Claremont made her beat Firelord who already beat Thor.
Reading about this made me understand perfectly why we have so few ubber powerful female charachters in marvel and the ones we do have are always nerfed, crazy as hell or dead.