Ororo Munroe: Storm/Hadari Yao/Regent of Sol Appreciation 2022

[Idiopop]

The Arakii concept around gods is sooo interesting... if you can fight and defeat the entire arakii army they would worship you. I love love love love it sooo much.

Also there is an arakii omega whose power is to summon gods.

Who is that?

[Cyclone_Ablaze]

Who is that?

His name is Uqesh The Bridge.

[butterflykyss]

Firstly, the interviews you are referencing were part of an article and retrospective in The Comics Journal #50 (1979) and Fantagraphics Books' 1982 volume The X-Men Companion [TXC], respectively. Both interviews were referenced in Back Issue! #54 (2013). I have copies of the latter (i.e., Back Issue! #54), which I will post relevant scans of below, and will be getting access to the former (i.e., The Comics Journal #50), though I also have the relevant quotes from that article on hand and will share a link to them below. As for The X-Men Companion, I am in the process of searching for it.

Now that clarifying the sources is out of the way, neither Claremont nor Cockrum ever stated or implied that "Jean was given Phoenix to put her on the power levels of Ororo." In fact, Claremont made quite the opposite clear: Phoenix was meant to be the X-Men's first female cosmic superhero. (NOTE: There is some evidence that suggests she was actually Marvel's first female cosmic superhero, but I'm still researching that.) However, after he was met with resistance from the editorial staff—they weren't keen on having a female cosmic superhero—he was forced to reduce Phoenix's powers to Storm's levels. In The Comics Journal #50 (this is referenced in the Back Issue! page posted below), Claremont admitted:



Not only does the above quote confirm that Jean/Phoenix was intended to be the X-Men's first female cosmic superhero—again, I'm not yet sure if she would've been Marvel's first—but it also makes it implicitly clear that, at the time, Storm was not considered a cosmic superhero. Additionally, during the same interview for The Comics Journal, Claremont continued:



He also expounded:



(NOTE: As I noted above, the last two quotes from The Comics Journal are not included in the Back Issue! article. Instead, a quote from The X-Men Companion is referenced. As soon as I get access to the direct scans of The Comics Journal article, which should be within the next 1-2 days—I subscribed to their archives subscription—I will post them, too. Here is the source for the last two The Comic Journal quotes: http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...x%20beat%20him.)

Frankly, the above quotes speak for themselves. Now, the quote from The X-Men Companion, which was published in 1982—three years after The Comics Journal interview above—and referenced in the second Back Issue! page posted below, is as follows:



In the quote above, Claremont claims that he and Cockrum had "originally envisioned that [Jean/Phoenix] had a power level...equivalent to Storm's," which slightly contradicts what he said three years earlier when he noted, "We had to cut [Jean/Phoenix] back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is." In either case, the same applies: Not only was the creation of Phoenix not influenced by Storm but Jean/Phoenix at her full potential was considered more powerful than Storm. Moreover, Jean/Phoenix's M'Kraan Crystal feat was meant to showcase her abilities at their fullest potential, which Cockrum confirms, substantiating Claremont's claims above:



In either case and to reiterate, it is clear that the introduction of Phoenix was 1) not influenced by Storm's power levels; 2) meant to be the introduction of the first female cosmic superhero; 3) meant to represent Jean's full potential as a psi; and 4) was conceived as being more powerful than Storm.

Before I share the Back Issue! pages, I also want to note the following: Jean was categorized by a highly-advanced, bio-sensor-equipped A.I., which were not prone to hyperbole at the time, as having "infinite mental powers" in Uncanny X-Men #48 in 1968. Incidentally, in that same issue she was able to use her telepathy to psi-scan and track an "electronic [robot] brain," which was unheard of then and is rare even now.

This was all nearly a decade before Claremont became the writer for X-Men and introduced Phoenix, or as some of you so affectionately refer to it as: "the burnt chicken." I point this out to underscore the fact that Jean's abilities being referred to as "infinite" far predates Claremont and his Phoenix stories. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this is why Jean, as Louise Simonson noted, was his "total favorite." (Here is the video source for Simonson's quote: https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...32186242916357)

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9mqb2dX0AQ8t5L?format=png&name=900x900[

[IMG]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/zqDbqzae-frh-gkp-2GFHMHlUFbUmKWQa_Zbr21WPiPOujxuPkUdq2031OQv6xXGBac p2BWouRrGmB0_5KwNgxYGxeyrfEho8mDKuOSrBdIuLwtKsUBn7 CKO6F73qQF4ZQ_XuQIhRA=s0[/

[IMG]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/KtRGWnx6KoJIygZOFy_UFPl77u8phyyW7PxDy0gnoFGj_3bzm2 85buEKCMJnCn3bcRxyi10Z0n8egBDD3ASdusWez_H3x7r4bGLU ZYhbJAOuQmfF9c23QLhHc38pEknw0fxDrrwpXA=s0[/]

1. thanks mercury for giving me the actual source material name and issue number. been looking for this for some time. I actually had the images I was looking for stored on my phone.

2. I wont argue against any scans you've provided that says something different however as you mentioned above Claremont states:

"We had originally envisioned that she had a power level that was equivalent to Storm's and that saving the universe was a one-time only stunt, that it was Jean achieving her full potential for one moment."


If we are to take what he said at face value (what would he gain by saying anything contrary to the truth), this would indicate that Jean was in fact given phoenix to put her on Storm's level. Claremont via cyclops even states as she is using the Phoenix power Jean was always the weakest xmen:



this again aligns to the interview with claremont/Sanderson. they wanted a new Jean both in looks and power; this would seem to imply that before this moment she was betrayed as something different from this.

3. To the point about Storm not being a cosmic hero that at its surface would make sense as at that time xmen battles were pretty much restricted to that on earth. however if you look to the events before Jean was copied/possessed storm used solar winds (cosmic powers) to destroy a sentinel. (note below she calls it the cosmic storm). it was later revealed to me in the xmen classic books this was changed to show her not using cosmic winds to fly on or destroy the sentinels. instead they had her using a jet pack and destroy the sentinel with bio electric lightning. the thought behind this being if storm could control the solar winds there would have been no need for Jean to attempt to shield the space ship from the solar flare as ororo could have simply controlled it. point being storm was already shown as a cosmic force in the original xmen and before Jean became Phoenix or was replaced by Phoenix. whichever version you follow.

uncanny xmen original:



classic xmen


I would argue based upon the canonical evidence at the time Claremont certainly had demonstrated storm was a cosmic force prior to Jean getting Phoenix (or Phoenix taking on jeans form); therefore, this would indicate she wasn't meant to be the first female cosmic character. it also further demonstrates that since editorial felt the need to change the above scans to what was shown in classic story, the xoffices clearly saw storm being capable of controlling cosmic forces. to not invalidate Jean/Phoenix in that moment they simply made that change. all in all, these events doesnt take away from Jean; this story is m iconic but Ororo was doing something that women characters at that time never did, especially black female characters - that is being powerful, not dependent on a man and a leader. Claremont had her doing this since her debut which was unheard of in the 70s. He really struck gold with the manner in which he chose to depict storm and again it was revolutionary at that time.

[Reigna]

LOL Well, first she will need to fight Everyone on Arakko at the same time in order for her to even be considered a God. But i'm sure she wouldn't have that much a problem. I have a Playlist in mind. HAHAHAHA

At this point storm is an anime protagonist. She cant be beaten soo far as she believes in herself... and frankly I am hear for it. I also realized the arakii powers are very abstract and I am wondering how that will affect storm's perceptions and views on her powers. But yeah this issue cemented why vulcan never stood a chance against storm. I mean look at the kind of power and personalities she wrestles with every day and they think vulcan stood a chance? Yeah no way.

[Mercury]

1. thanks mercury for giving me the actual source material name and issue number. been looking for this for some time. I actually had the images I was looking for stored on my phone.

You're welcome!

2. I wont argue against any scans you've provided that says something different however as you mentioned above Claremont states:

"We had originally envisioned that she had a power level that was equivalent to Storm's and that saving the universe was a one-time only stunt, that it was Jean achieving her full potential for one moment."

Claremont stated the above in 1982 in The X-Men Companion. As I previously noted, three years before that (1979), he stated the following in an interview for The Comics Journal (a scan of which I finally gained access to, highlighted, and include below):

"Dave and I kind of liked the idea that we had a female character who was cosmic. No one else did. Len [Wein] objected strenuously to our using Firelord if Phoenix beat him. We couldn’t have a lady character who’s cosmic, because—well, his argument was that it made the rest of the X-Men superfluous...We got around it by having the fight be a draw...So, anyway, we were told, Dave and I, that Phoenix could not be cosmic. And when the editor passes down an edict, you're stuck with it. We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine.”

This would indicate that Jean was in fact given phoenix to put her own Storm's level. Claremont via cyclops even states as she is using this power Jean was always the weakest xmen:

The quote I referenced above, which is from an older interview, explicitly states the exact opposite. Unless you are implying that Claremont lied in the 1979 interview, it's clear—to me, at least—that in the quote from three years later (1982), which seems to be the crux of your argument, he is conflating the editorial "edict" that was "passed down" to him, i.e., "We couldn't have a lady character who's cosmic," with his decision to "cut [Jean/Phoenix] down to roughly where Storm is."

Regarding Jean's power levels, it's telling that Claremont had Scott refer to Jean as once being "the weakest X-Man"—that's a character's subjective opinion—rather than make this claim as an objective narrator, especially considering his fondness for using expository captions. And again, I can simply rebut that with the panel below from 1968, which speaks for itself:

3. To the point about Storm not being a cosmic hero that injtially would make sense as at that time xmen battles were pretty much restricted to that on earth. however if you look to the events before Jean was copied/possessed storm used solar winds (cosmic powers) to destroy a sentinel. (note below she calls it the cosmic storm).

You bring up a valid point; one to which my reply is twofold:

1) Solar winds are scientifically established natural phenomena, i.e., they are not cosmic in the mystical/metaphysical sense but rather in the literal sense, as in they occur literally in the cosmos, or space, as "space weather." When Ororo wonders, "What if my powers include the cosmic storm as well," I believe Claremont intended her question to mean, "What if my powers include controlling space weather as well?" Of course, this was and is within her capabilities.

2) However, when Claremont referred to "cosmic superhero[s]" (e.g., Thor, Silver Surfer, etc.), it's clear he was referring to characters capable of cosmic feats in the mystical/metaphysical sense, such as resurrecting themselves, traveling through space without the aid of a spacesuit, and repairing the M'Kraan Crystal, itself a mystical/metaphysical concept or construct—all of which Jean/Phoenix did. At the time, as written and conceived by Claremont, Storm was not capable of accomplishing either of the aforementioned feats.

In short, while Claremont did establish that Ororo could manipulate weather outside of Earth, i.e., space weather or "the cosmic storm," he didn't attribute any mystical/metaphysical abilities to her at that time the way he did to Jean/Phoenix.

It was later revealed to me in the xmen classic books this was changed to show her not using cosmic winds to fly on or destroy the sentinels. instead they had her using a jet pack and destroy the sentinel with bio electric lightning. the thought behind this being if storm could control the solar winds there would have been no need for Jean to attempt to shield the space ship from the solar flare as ororo could have simply controlled it.

That's not the only scene he changed. In the Classic X-Men reprint of Uncanny X-Men #108, Claremont also made significant changes to the scene in which Jean/Phoenix repairs the M'Kraan Crystal, with Ororo and Corsair acting as anchors. He revised the scene to not only have Phoenix fail upon her first attempt with Ororo and Corsair, only to need help from Xavier and all of the X-Men present, but also to have her encounter and fight off Dark Phoenix, amongst several other changes he made to the original story. As for whether he changed the scene in which Ororo is shown manipulating space weather so that it wouldn't make the scene in which Jean shields the space shuttle from radiation unnecessary, I honestly don't know. I have yet to read an interview in which he states this, though it is possible that was his reasoning and intention.

Additionally, Claremont drafted plots several months in advance of publication. In the scan below, he reveals that although Uncanny X-Men #97 was published in February 1976, it was actually plotted in the summer of 1975, roughly half a year in advance. Ororo's feat was in issue #98 and Jean's feat was two issues later, in #100. Phoenix's first appearance was in issue #101. I think it's safe to assume that he knew what he was doing with Ororo and Jean and had already plotted the introduction of Phoenix and her battle with the cosmic supervillain Firelord by the time issue #98 was published.

In other words, despite having Ororo manipulate space weather, or "the cosmic storm," neither he nor the editors considered her a female cosmic, i.e., mystical/metaphysical, superhero in the same way they considered Jean/Phoenix, otherwise, they wouldn't have "decided to cut [Jean/Phoenix] down to roughly where Storm is." Incidentally, he reduced Phoenix's power levels after she repaired the M'Kraan Crystal.

point being storm was already shown as a cosmic force in the original xmen and before Jean became Phoenix or was replaced by Phoenix. whichever version you follow.

Again, Ororo was depicted as being able to control space weather, "the cosmic storm"; however, she was neither described nor shown manifesting as a "cosmic force" in the mystical/metaphysical sense.

I would argue based upon the canonical evidence at the time Claremont certainly had demonstrated storm was a cosmic force prior to Jean getting Phoenix (or Phoenix taking on jeans form); therefore, this would indicate she wasn't meant to be the first female cosmic character. it also further demonstrates that if even editorial felt the need to change the above scans to what was shown in classic the xoffices clearly saw storm being capable of controlling cosmic forces. to not invalidate Jean in that moment they made that change. all in all in doesnt take away from Jean but Ororo was doing something that women characters at that time never did, especially black female characters - that is being powerful, not dependent on a man and a leader. Claremont really struck gold with the manner in which he chose to deoict storm and again it was revolutionary at that time.

As I indicated above, all evidence points to Claremont making a distinction between being able to manipulate natural cosmic phenomena, such as space weather, and being a cosmic, i.e., mystical/metaphysical, superhero/villain in the vein of Thor, Silver Surfer, Firelord, Galactus et al. who are capable of mystical/metaphysical feats outside naturally occurring phenomena. Still, this doesn't invalidate Ororo or negate her space weather/cosmic storm feat or role as a groundbreaking female and, more importantly, black female character. It also doesn't invalidate or contradict her later feats and upgrades, especially after the death of Jean/Phoenix.

Ultimately, the quotes and screenshots I have posted clarify the following two points, which was my intent from the very beginning:

1) Jean was not "given Phoenix to put her on Storm's level" because a) she was already categorized as having "infinite mental powers" nearly a decade before Ororo was introduced and b) Claremont himself admitted he was prompted to "cut her down to roughly where Storm is" due to editorial resistance. To state otherwise is to both imply that he was lying during the 1979 interview and attribute a claim to him that he never made.

2) Even with her space weather/cosmic storm feat, neither Claremont nor those above him considered Ororo to be a cosmic superhero in the mystical/metaphysical sense at that time. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had a problem with Phoenix being a cosmic superhero. However, that's not to say that she isn't considered one now.

[Rosa Snarks]

Pity this wasn't the thought process after x-men red #4 when Storm's appreciation thread turned into pages upon pages of insults and belittling of both her and her powers. Ah well.

Did anyone try the chicken? I thought the chicken was lovely.

[Reigna]

Wait question did yall notice that in evolution and in the x-men animated series that anytime storm used her powers there was a distinct theme song for them.

[Reigna]

Pity this wasn't the thought process after x-men red #4 when Storm's appreciation thread turned into pages upon pages of insults and belittling of both her and her powers. Ah well.

Did anyone try the chicken? I thought the chicken was lovely.

Which one chick-fill-A, KFC, wendy or Costco...etc. Cause the KFC kinda dry, Wendy kinda bland, Chick-fill-A was too salty and Costco was very cheap.

The only good one was popeyes it is kinda juicy... or was it

[metalclouds]

Wait question did yall notice that in evolution and in the x-men animated series that anytime storm used her powers there was a distinct theme song for them.

I loved it although I hated the blocky character designs and animation. I also love how in all of the X-Men cartoons that whenever Storm used her powers it was so dramatic lol. Sky would get dark, leaves and **** would start flying around, music would also get dramatic lol. Some of my favorite parts were when her hair would fly straight up. I think it made her look awesome

[Rosa Snarks]

Wait question did yall notice that in evolution and in the x-men animated series that anytime storm used her powers there was a distinct theme song for them.

Oh yes! I absolutely LOVE Storm's musical cue from X-men Evolution though. That is UNMATCHED

[Reigna]

I loved it although I hated the blocky character designs and animation. I also love how in all of the X-Men cartoons that whenever Storm used her powers it was so dramatic lol. Sky would get dark, leaves and **** would start flying around, music would also get dramatic lol. Some of my favorite parts were when her hair would fly straight up. I think it made her look awesome

Yeah kinda like she was entering an avatar state of sorts but on a whole other level. I really hope they do this in the mcu her power is awe inspiring even absolute begins pause to look at her when she is doing her thing. We need to see that and feel that on the big screen.

[Cyclone_Ablaze]

Wait question did yall notice that in evolution and in the x-men animated series that anytime storm used her powers there was a distinct theme song for them.

Yes. I mean how could you NOT notice it. But it makes sense becuase her Powers makes her Look like a God.

And when you see someone Cracking the Sky open with Lightning and Thunder and Tornadoes how can you not have Godly Music.

[butterflykyss]

You're welcome!



Claremont stated the above in 1982 in The X-Men Companion. As I previously noted, three years before that (1979), he stated the following in an interview for The Comics Journal (a scan of which I finally gained access to, highlighted, and include below):







The quote I referenced above, which is from an older interview, explicitly states the exact opposite. Unless you are implying that Claremont lied in the 1979 interview, it's clear—to me, at least—that in the quote from three years later (1982), which seems to be the crux of your argument, he is conflating the editorial "edict" that was "passed down" to him, i.e., "We couldn't have a lady character who's cosmic," with his decision to "cut [Jean/Phoenix] down to roughly where Storm is."

Regarding Jean's power levels, it's telling that Claremont had Scott refer to Jean as once being "the weakest X-Man"—that's a character's subjective opinion—rather than make this claim as an objective narrator, especially considering his fondness for using expository captions. And again, I can simply rebut that with the panel below from 1968, which speaks for itself:





You bring up a valid point; one to which my reply is twofold:

1) Solar winds are scientifically established natural phenomena, i.e., they are not cosmic in the mystical/metaphysical sense but rather in the literal sense, as in they occur literally in the cosmos, or space, as "space weather." When Ororo wonders, "What if my powers include the cosmic storm as well," I believe Claremont intended her question to mean, "What if my powers include controlling space weather as well?" Of course, this was and is within her capabilities.

2) However, when Claremont referred to "cosmic superhero[s]" (e.g., Thor, Silver Surfer, etc.), it's clear he was referring to characters capable of cosmic feats in the mystical/metaphysical sense, such as resurrecting themselves, traveling through space without the aid of a spacesuit, and repairing the M'Kraan Crystal, itself a mystical/metaphysical concept or construct—all of which Jean/Phoenix did. At the time, as written and conceived by Claremont, Storm was not capable of accomplishing either of the aforementioned feats.

In short, while Claremont did establish that Ororo could manipulate weather outside of Earth, i.e., space weather or "the cosmic storm," he didn't attribute any mystical/metaphysical abilities to her at that time the way he did to Jean/Phoenix.



That's not the only scene he changed. In the Classic X-Men reprint of Uncanny X-Men #108, Claremont also made significant changes to the scene in which Jean/Phoenix repairs the M'Kraan Crystal, with Ororo and Corsair acting as anchors. He revised the scene to not only have Phoenix fail upon her first attempt with Ororo and Corsair, only to need help from Xavier and all of the X-Men present, but also to have her encounter and fight off Dark Phoenix, amongst several other changes he made to the original story. As for whether he changed the scene in which Ororo is shown manipulating space weather so that it wouldn't make the scene in which Jean shields the space shuttle from radiation unnecessary, I honestly don't know. I have yet to read an interview in which he states this, though it is possible that was his reasoning and intention.

Additionally, Claremont drafted plots several months in advance of publication. In the scan below, he reveals that although Uncanny X-Men #97 was published in February 1976, it was actually plotted in the summer of 1975, roughly half a year in advance. Ororo's feat was in issue #98 and Jean's feat was two issues later, in #100. Phoenix's first appearance was in issue #101. I think it's safe to assume that he knew what he was doing with Ororo and Jean and had already plotted the introduction of Phoenix and her battle with the cosmic supervillain Firelord by the time issue #98 was published.

In other words, despite having Ororo manipulate space weather, or "the cosmic storm," neither he nor the editors considered her a female cosmic, i.e., mystical/metaphysical, superhero in the same way they considered Jean/Phoenix, otherwise, they wouldn't have "decided to cut [Jean/Phoenix] down to roughly where Storm is." Incidentally, he reduced Phoenix's power levels after she repaired the M'Kraan Crystal.





Again, Ororo was depicted as being able to control space weather, "the cosmic storm"; however, she was neither described nor shown manifesting as a "cosmic force" in the mystical/metaphysical sense.



As I indicated above, all evidence points to Claremont making a distinction between being able to manipulate natural cosmic phenomena, such as space weather, and being a cosmic, i.e., mystical/metaphysical, superhero/villain in the vein of Thor, Silver Surfer, Firelord, Galactus et al. who are capable of mystical/metaphysical feats outside naturally occurring phenomena. Still, this doesn't invalidate Ororo or negate her space weather/cosmic storm feat or role as a groundbreaking female and, more importantly, black female character. It also doesn't invalidate or contradict her later feats and upgrades, especially after the death of Jean/Phoenix.

Ultimately, the quotes and screenshots I have posted clarify the following two points, which was my intent from the very beginning:

1) Jean was not "given Phoenix to put her on Storm's level" because a) she was already categorized as having "infinite mental powers" nearly a decade before Ororo was introduced and b) Claremont himself admitted he was prompted to "cut her down to roughly where Storm is" due to editorial resistance. To state otherwise is to both imply that he was lying during the 1979 interview and attribute a claim to him that he never made.

2) Even with her space weather/cosmic storm feat, neither Claremont nor those above him considered Ororo to be a cosmic superhero in the mystical/metaphysical sense at that time. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had a problem with Phoenix being a cosmic superhero. However, that's not to say that she isn't considered one now.

1. That initial interview was conducted during period in which there was a misogynistic belief women were not capable of certain power displays so it makes sense that Marvel would not credit a female with cosmic power. However, disregard this. Would anyone suggest that green Phoenix, even though editorial suggested she couldn't be depicted as such, was not a cosmic being based upon her feats before going dark? If I concede and acknowledge that Ororo during that period was not a cosmic being(even though as I pointed out the classic xmen retcon clearly supports said claim), Claremont in both articles still stated Jean was given Phoenix to be at Ororo's power level. So we either accept that the original Phoenix wasn't cosmic but was "cut down" to Ororos level (which was still much higher than Jean's at that time) or we accept that Phoenix was a cosmic beimg but still was amped to Storm's level. Either way both articles indicate that Jean was given Phoenix to put her own Ororos power and was a drastic increasein power from her original baseline.

2. Solar winds are a natural phenomena so that is a fair point. However, if we are to ignore what Ororo did during the Phoenix saga that would support she was a cosmic being or could be one, Claremont demonstrated two times she was able to achieve "cosmic" power. One was Roguestorm where she was described to have near infinite power and was even hinted to perhaps becoming dark phoenix and the second was when she described her powers as allowing her to draw power/sustenance from both the spiritual (metaphysical) and material aspects of the galatic core, which she was able to utilize in becoming a star for a brief moment. Again, I think Claremont was definitely allowing Ororo to flex her cosmic muscles in a way that wouldn't be too obviously offensive to those who viewed women incapable of said showings. Nevertheless, if one saw these as cosmic showings or not the fact remains Jean was given Phoenix level abilities to put her on Ororo's power level.

[butterflykyss]

does anyone have links to the interview where it is mentioned that Jean was given phoenix to put her on the power levels of Ororo? The link i had now has dead images. if so you can dm me.

just wanted to requote thst this was my original point and I never made a claim storm was cosmic

[MindofShadow]

At least y'all can always count on BP writers to treat you well

http://www.multiversitycomics.com/pr...nther-vol-8-2/