Ororo Munroe: Storm/Hadari Yao/Regent of Sol Appreciation 2022

[jwatson]

I think Claremont was very clear. Jean was set to Storm's level on Earth and Storm would have eventually reached the level of phoenix as she explored space now. Storm was not cosmic at first but once she went into space she learned she could control the cosmic storm a new aspect of her power. When Jean got phoenix she skipped the earthly stuff and went right to cosmic but had to be brought back down and as such was settled at the high level storm already was on earth. The two's journey was suppose to mirror each other. Jean to show Storm the cosmic world and Storm to explore Jean's will and inner strength on earth. At least that's how i read it. Shame it didn't happen that way. But i'm still hoping Ewing. ^_^

In some ways thinking about it, i think Rogue Storm was a homage to Jean in that claremont probably had to do the hardest thing, bringing storm back to earth, having her give up her own power, it was hers, because we literally saw what happened to Jean but not because she couldn't handle it, the men in the room couldn't. Thanks mercury you really added a deeper level to my love for there friendship with this. i could be dead a$$ wrong but in my headcanon it really does.

[Devaishwarya]

Lol well I agree on the last part of your comments, but I’m not worried about or referring to her detractors (they’ll always do it no matter what facts they get slapped with). My point is specific to writers who clearly struggle, don’t care enough to research, or don’t have the ability to handle her powers for their stories so they at least have points of reference from writers who do vs re-writing her canon.

Ah! Gotchyah.

But even then...If you aren't Ewing, or writing the character in a capacity specific to XM:R then...enh!
As they did/do with Wolverine, every writer will have their personal take on the character and write her as they see her in respect to the story they're telling...like Coates in BP or Vita in that Marauders issue...and no two will be exactly the same. They can't/won't be because entirely different writes with entirely different end goals.
Ewing's version is the main focus...everyone else, Gillen, Ridley...is secondary. Yes, there should be some consistency with her portrayal but I'm not going to cry "racism" and "misogyny" or "ignorance" if they don't write her like Ewing.
With writers...it's not that they don't "get" the character (although in some cases, like Kittenheim, it's exactly that) it's that the borrowed character is not that important to their story, or at least not as important as the main character hence...Supreme Energy Manipulator in XMR and Lightning Lass elsewhere.

[Reigna]

I remember reading there stories back in the day and being so frustrated. I created an entire thread on the topic called the miseducation of ororo because I felt it was a concerted effort by writers to nerf her. I get the impression a lot of readers were not fans of Claremonts depiction of Storm. When they grew up and could write for marvel they had every intention of bringing to life the version of storm they perceived her to be. Imagine writers showing super man not being super powered or batman not having gadgets to get him kit of any situation? The same is true with Ororo in how they tried to make her just a weather manipulator.

Im actually a bit encouraged that they will do more for Storm. This will be their premiere black female superhero introduced to the world and I think they would do it in an unforgettable fashion that will wipe away all memories of foxmen storm.

I mean was she a weather manipulator or a glorified airbender who could throw lightning. At this point she might as we have been the wind gormitti.


Oh I know all that just have the jitters about it. But as they have done right with the dora milaje, monica and now bast.... I am very certain they will do right by Storm seeing as she is their biggest chess piece and even regarded by most to be the "queen of marvel"

[Mercury]

Before I respond to jwatson's post, I want to thank you all for being cool with me delving into Jean's history at length in this thread. My intention was and is only to clarify any confusion regarding her developments throughout the years as they pertain to discussions carried on about her here. Also, after this reply, I will stop imposing myself and my thoughts and research regarding Jean on all of you. After all, this thread is and should be focused on celebrating Ororo. Thanks!

I think Claremont was very clear. Jean was set to Storm's level on Earth and Storm would have eventually reached the level of phoenix as she explored space now. Storm was not cosmic at first but once she went into space she learned she could control the cosmic storm a new aspect of her power. When Jean got phoenix she skipped the earthly stuff and went right to cosmic but had to be brought back down and as such was settled at the high level storm already was on earth.

Yes, Claremont was very clear. As he revealed in Phoenix: The Untold Story (1984), when he and Cockrum initially conceived of Jean as Phoenix, they wanted her to be "the X-Men analog, if you will, to Thor—someone who was essentially the first female cosmic hero—" and defeat him or Silver Surfer in a fight, but editor Jim Shooter balked. (I've shared the page containing Claremont's quote below.)



This is substantiated by the quotes from 1979 I shared in my previous post, in which Claremont explicitly stated, "[Dave and I] were told...that Phoenix could not be cosmic...We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine.” He pretty much said the same thing in reverse three years later in 1982: "We had originally envisioned that [Jean/Phoenix] had a power level that was equivalent to Storm's and that saving the universe was a one-time-only stunt; that it was Jean achieving her full potential for that one moment."

Later, when Byrne replaced Cockrum as the artist of the book, he made a concerted effort to push for Jean to be downplayed and excluded from stories because he found her to be too powerful as Phoenix, going as far as saying, "I didn't like Phoenix since the word go. Because she instantly made the rest of the X-Men fifth wheels, you know? And she wasn't even an X-Man." That last comment stings because she certainly was an X-Man—one of the founding members and the first female X-Man, in fact, and later revealed to have been Xavier's first student—even if she had been written off the team prior to Claremont taking over. (Below is the page containing Byrne's quote.)



To be clear, both Cockrum and Claremont conceived of Jean as the X-Men's, and perhaps Marvel's, first female cosmic superhero. Moreover, they created Phoenix not because they wanted to have her compete with or surpass Storm, but because they loved Jean as a character—"too much," in fact, as Byrne notes in the first page above—and felt that she had never been given her proper due, especially considering the vast potential of her character and abilities as indicated and displayed in the years before they partnered and took over Uncanny X-Men.

Furthermore, Phoenix was created as being simply an extension or manifestation of Jean's abilities at their fullest potential, i.e., not as a separate entity or "force." In fact, Claremont still sees Jean and Phoenix as one and the same, or "both, as always," as he wrote in the prequel to Days of the Future Past, i.e., Uncanny X-Men #140.5, which he wrote in 2020 and was published in 2021. (Incidentally, I find it both telling and interesting that Marvel signed off on this story, considering what's been done with the Phoenix Force within the last couple of years. Hmm...) Lastly, he still considers her power second only to that of the Creator. The panel from the aforementioned issue is below.



I belabor the points above because 1) I want to set the record straight as to why Phoenix was created, 2) make it clear that she had no peer in the X-Men when it came to her abilities, and 3) underscore how both explicit and implicit, conscious and unconscious sexism played a pivotal role in not just reducing her powers so that she wouldn't be able to defeat Thor or Silver Surfer or [insert-another-male-cosmic-superhero] but also in subjecting her to abuse, making her go mad with power, and being reduced to killing herself or, per the original ending, being psychically lobotomized.

She's my favorite fictional character, and if people are going to make claims about her history, I want to make sure those claims are based on fact and are correct.

The two's journey was suppose to mirror each other. Jean to show Storm the cosmic world and Storm to explore Jean's will and inner strength on earth. At least that's how i read it. Shame it didn't happen that way. But i'm still hoping Ewing. ^_^

While I'm not sure whether this was Claremont's initial intent, it's a beautiful idea, and one to which I wouldn't be averse. Jean and Ororo are my favorite mutants, and I consider their bond and friendship deep, unique, and iconoclastic in the best possible way. In my opinion, they are not only the most powerful but also the grand pillars of the X-Men. They are peerless and irreplaceable.

On a side note: You know, when I peruse this thread, some of the sentiments shared here about Ororo strike me as similar to the sentiments of a lot of Jean's fans. Jean has been undermined and held back often throughout her history. Fans of hers have had to contend with male artists and writers who have exhibited both conscious and unconscious sexism in their quest to shove her to the side, kill her, and/or undercut the progressive developments she's undergone under better male and female writers, i.e., writers like Claremont, Simonson, Seagle, Bendis, Bunn, Hopeless, and Taylor. (I exclude Morrison from this list because, while I love much of what he did with her, he undermined the good he did by, once again, killing her off.)

Moreover, like Osiris, Jean has been cut into several parts—divided and scattered—and had whole characters built from her remnants, be they Madelyne Pryor, Rachel Summers, Hope Summers—all characters whose creators admitted were supposed to be either doppelgangers of Jean or Jean herself—or the dozen or so Phoenix hosts that came after her. Not to mention, the countless characters whose developments have been inspired by her seminal and groundbreaking trajectory in comic books. In the end, I long ago transcended my anger and sorrow regarding this. I mean, if I made it a point to gripe every time creators use and have used bits and pieces or whole swathes of Jean's mythos and iconography to amplify their stories and male and female characters, I'd be a very unpleasant person. Instead, I choose to remain content and secure with the knowledge that she has been so impactful—a blueprint, really—and, ultimately, is a better and more complex character as a result of all of the attempts to subjugate her.

In short, I empathize—quite deeply, in fact—with the frustration hardcore Storm fans feel regarding how she, too, has been undermined and underdeveloped throughout the years, especially considering Claremont's original vision for her. Moreover—and more importantly—I understand and would be remiss to ignore the fact that Jean fans have not had to contend with one significant factor with which Storm's fans have had to in their plight to have Storm given the respect and attention she deserves: racism. And for that I feel deep sorrow. Nevertheless, I say all of this to underscore that, much like these two beautiful characters, we have more in common than not, and we should strive to band together and respect both of their long and intricate histories instead of pitting them against one another.

In some ways thinking about it, i think Rogue Storm was a homage to Jean in that claremont probably had to do the hardest thing, bringing storm back to earth, having her give up her own power, it was hers, because we literally saw what happened to Jean but not because she couldn't handle it, the men in the room couldn't. Thanks mercury you really added a deeper level to my love for there friendship with this. i could be dead a$$ wrong but in my headcanon it really does.

Believe it or not, for a fleeting second, this made me choke up. (It was a fleeting second, dammit! lol!) Yes, I agree. Rogue Storm was definitely an homage to Jean. In fact, Claremont uses the same words he used to describe how Jean's power felt to her as Phoenix to describe how Ororo's powers feel to her as Rogue Storm: "Her power sings within her..." Right after, he notes, "And, at last, Ororo understands how Jean Grey felt as Phoenix. Those memories of her beloved friend give her the strength she needs to face her inner demons." What a beautiful moment.

Ultimately, Claremont used story beats he used and planned for later use with Jean to not only further develop Ororo but to create Madelyne and Rachel. I choose to celebrate rather than begrudge that.

[Subliminally]

That was a wonderful and informative post, Merc!

[Reigna]

i have honestly never been to tik tok but yeesh you guys scare me. It sounds like ya'll are dealing with people that would make my brain sweat and give me hives. lol. I just don't have the energy to defend most times a lone storm. lol. I know when i've reached a point not one can change my view, i don't need to say anything else after that. lol That could be quiet pigheadedness though now that i think about it, but it works for me. lol

Tik tok is the most toxic place... there are these stupid debates and these people dedicate entire videos to dissing other charachters... the wanda stans are the worst of it but truthfully all the other stans even storm stans are also kinds toxic. That app doesnt bring out the best in people.

[Subliminally]

Tik tok is the most toxic place... there are these stupid debates and these people dedicate entire videos to dissing other charachters... the wanda stans are the worst of it but truthfully all the other stabs even storm stabs are also kinds toxic. That app doesnt bring out the best in people.

I don't know what Wanda fans are mad about. She's a whole ass deluxe Elder Goddess in the comics and basically the premier heroine in the MCU.

Like what's there to complain about?

Talk to me when Mcu Wanda gets man handled by f-ing toad or people get upset because someone like Pixie beat her in a magic battle.

[Subliminally]

This was taken from the Immortal #2 review thread and the purpose of this post is not to start drama but to ask a question -

Storm can't control the weather on another planet the other side of the galaxy or maybe another universe.

Does anyone think that this type of feat is within her current power or would further "evolution"(?) be required to achieve it?

Edit:

It's canon that Storm can see the entire universe, stars, and empty space as energy that is hers to manipulate but I wonder if she was for example on Krakoa could she make one of her infamous cloud faces on Arakko or something?

Basically what do you all think her range is right now?

[Mercury]

That was a wonderful and informative post, Merc!

Thank you, love! I am glad to hear you were receptive to what I tried to say.

Tik tok is the most toxic place... there are these stupid debates and these people dedicate entire videos to dissing other charachters... the wanda stans are the worst of it but truthfully all the other stans even storm stans are also kinds toxic. That app doesnt bring out the best in people.

Seriously, sometimes one just has to pull back from the FaNdOmS and take stock of why they love a character, instead of paying so much attention to other characters.

I don't know what Wanda fans are mad about. She's a whole ass deluxe Elder Goddess in the comics and basically the premier heroine in the MCU.

Like what's there to complain about?

Talk to me when Mcu Wanda gets man handled by f-ing toad or people get upset because someone like Pixie beat her in a magic battle.

I don't even bother with some of these fans. I do know quite a few lovely Wanda fans, though, so that's not a knock on all of her fans. In either case, part of their fervent toxicity comes from the fact that they know some of her most pivotal stories are simply shadows of more iconic stories that came before. Moreover, she was certainly Jean Grey-ified in the MCU and everybody knows it, which compounds the insecurity.

Check out these breakdowns by the legendary Danika(!!!!), formerly Comic Book Girl 19, and Grace Randolph—both are big Wanda and WandaVision fans—speaking exquisite truth.

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...80570079641600

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...66350993068033

This was taken from the Immortal #2 review thread and the purpose of this post is not to start drama but to ask a question -

Does anyone think that this type of feat is within her current power or would further "evolution"(?) be required to achieve it?

In Uncanny X-Men #99, Claremont established that Storm could manipulate "the cosmic storm," so to whomever wrote that: Let's not even go there, hun. Next!

[Reigna]

I don't know what Wanda fans are mad about. She's a whole ass deluxe Elder Goddess in the comics and basically the premier heroine in the MCU.

Like what's there to complain about?

Talk to me when Mcu Wanda gets man handled by f-ing toad or people get upset because someone like Pixie beat her in a magic battle.

Hmmm I know right like i like comic wanda i follow her story.... but her mcu stans are annoying as ****. Like This girl has gotten the buffs of all bigfa and they are still not content, going out of their way to create drama with other fandom especially the jean and zatana fandoms. They tried to push her as queen of marvel on tik tok but the storm stans there **** that down really quickly. Like darlings, your fave is finally out of purgatory celebrate your good fortune in peace, its upsetting because wanda is a charachter with a very important message behind her but because her stans only care about who she can beat.

[Reigna]

This was taken from the Immortal #2 review thread and the purpose of this post is not to start drama but to ask a question -



Does anyone think that this type of feat is within her current power or would further "evolution"(?) be required to achieve it?

Edit:

It's canon that Storm can see the entire universe, stars, and empty space as energy that is hers to manipulate but I wonder if she was for example on Krakoa could she make one of her infamous cloud faces on Arakko or something?

Basically what do you all think her range is right now?

I believe she can if she concentrates hard enough. I mean I give you this

RCO016_1582717742.jpg

She connected to the energy fields of many many celestial bodies and the galactic core feat where she literally manipulates the energies of millions of stars and planets at once. Affecting the weather on saud celestial forces should be doable currently for her with enough concentration.

[Reigna]

Thank you, love! I am glad to hear you were receptive to what I tried to say.



Seriously, sometimes one just has to pull back from the FaNdOmS and take stock of why they love a character, instead of paying so much attention to other characters.



I don't even bother with some of these fans. I do know quite a few lovely Wanda fans, though, so that's not a knock on all of her fans. In either case, part of their fervent toxicity comes from the fact that they know some of her most pivotal stories are simply shadows of more iconic stories that came before. Moreover, she was certainly Jean Grey-ified in the MCU and everybody knows it, which compounds the insecurity.

Check out these breakdowns by the legendary Danika(!!!!), formerly Comic Book Girl 19, and Grace Randolph—both are big Wanda and WandaVision fans—speaking exquisite truth.

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...80570079641600

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...66350993068033



In Uncanny X-Men #99, Claremont established that Storm could manipulate "the cosmic storm," so to whomever wrote that: Let's not even go there, hun. Next!

The fandom stuff is really toxic and you are right sometimes you gotta back it up because in the end these are some desperate people who feel like drama is thier faves only cling to relevance.

[The Regent]

Thank you, love! I am glad to hear you were receptive to what I tried to say.



Seriously, sometimes one just has to pull back from the FaNdOmS and take stock of why they love a character, instead of paying so much attention to other characters.



I don't even bother with some of these fans. I do know quite a few lovely Wanda fans, though, so that's not a knock on all of her fans. In either case, part of their fervent toxicity comes from the fact that they know some of her most pivotal stories are simply shadows of more iconic stories that came before. Moreover, she was certainly Jean Grey-ified in the MCU and everybody knows it, which compounds the insecurity.

Check out these breakdowns by the legendary Danika(!!!!), formerly Comic Book Girl 19, and Grace Randolph—both are big Wanda and WandaVision fans—speaking exquisite truth.

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...80570079641600

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...66350993068033



In Uncanny X-Men #99, Claremont established that Storm could manipulate "the cosmic storm," so to whomever wrote that: Let's not even go there, hun. Next!

Oh how I miss the excess of thought bubbles and dialogue that old school comics had. They left no room for guess work or uncertainty, especially when it came to feats...

[Mercury]

The fandom stuff is really toxic and you are right sometimes you gotta back it up because in the end these are some desperate people who feel like drama is thier faves only cling to relevance.

Exactly, love.

Oh how I miss the excess of thought bubbles and dialogue that old school comics had. They left no room for guess work or uncertainty, especially when it came to feats...

Yes! I created a thread about them a few weeks back. They need to make a comeback to the X-books. They can be used to fit today’s standards and sensibilities and would give us so much more to mull over.

[Reigna]

Oh how I miss the excess of thought bubbles and dialogue that old school comics had. They left no room for guess work or uncertainty, especially when it came to feats...

It really did leave no room for ambiguity which would remove a lot of ambiguity from toxic debates.