Ororo Munroe: Storm/Hadari Yao/Regent of Sol Appreciation 2022

[Mercury]

Y'all, don't shoot me! lol! Butterflykyss is engaging me in discourse and I'd be remiss to ignore their replies.

1. so the article you quote was that she was cut down to storms level. in the actual Phoenix saga what did that specefic power level look like? what type of displays did that look like? whatever conclusion you come to and whatever that looks like it still means those displays were on the level at which storm could operate.

I think I stated what feats pre-downgraded Phoenix accomplished, but I will be more succinct: 1) She resurrected herself after the shuttle crashed in Jamaica Bay (Claremont makes it clear that she died, became an entity of pure thought, and then reformed as Phoenix); 2) fought and essentially defeated Firelord, and 3) repaired the M'Kraan Crystal. Again, Ororo could not accomplish any of these feats.

Better still, Claremont neatly summarizes this—what you refer below to her "interim step"—in the following panel from Uncanny X-Men #125:



Mind you, as the panel above suggests, Claremont didn't really depower Phoenix as much as have her burn herself out after repairing the M'Kraan Crystal. This is equivalent to a runner completing a marathon and then being exhausted and unable to immediately complete another marathon after, i.e., the runner wouldn't be permanently burnt out, only temporarily.

the second article, it was stated they wanted something new and that was Phoenix. But the next part is what is important:

"We originally envisioned that she (jean/Phoenix) had a power level equivalent to Storm's and that the saving of the universe was a one-time only stunt, that it was Jean achieving her full potential for that one moment."

And, again, you are ignoring the following quote from 1979 in favor of the quote from 1982. (Mind you, the first quote was from an interview Claremont gave before the Dark Phoenix Saga was even published; the second quote is from nearly three years after its publication. Needless to say, I trust the accuracy of the first quote more, since it was closer to the time he created Phoenix:

"So, anyway, we were told, Dave and I, that Phoenix could not be cosmic....We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine.”

There wasn't an interim step between regular Jean and Phoenix Jean. The power she was given was that equivalent to storm and that power was Phoenix.

I explained what Phoenix's "interim step" was above and also that, while Phoenix was "burnt [...] out," she wasn't permanently depowered, as evidenced by the fact that she would go on to become Dark Phoenix.

2. Storm didn't have to be the inspiration for what inspired the creation of Phoenix

But you've been claiming exactly this, even though I've proven that this is not true.

but again based upon both articles anything that Jean did during that period Claremont explained that as a way to understand her power levels, she was operating at one equivalent to Storm's.

This is incorrect. I will reiterate that the following Phoenix feats Ororo could not and did not accomplish: 1) Resurrecting herself after the shuttle crashed in Jamaica Bay; 2) fighting and essentially defeating Firelord, and 3) repairing the M'Kraan Crystal.

It can be said that Phoenix was reduced to Ororo's power levels after her M'Kraan Crystal feat, which, in fact, is exactly what Claremont states, leading up to her transformation into Dark Phoenix, at which point her powers surged again.

That's the only conclusion that can be made... even if you conclude she wasn't cosmic and cut down to storms level, the feats we saw during Phoenix saga displayed by Jean were equivalent to storm. so maybe the issue is that im saying she was given a power to put her a storms power level. however the reason she got it when she got Phoenix she was at Storm's power level.

I've sufficiently explained above when and how Phoenix was reduced to Ororo's power levels. To be clear, between her resurrection from the shuttle and repairing the M'Kraan Crystal (From Uncanny X-Men #101 to #108), she was considered a cosmic superhero and more powerful than Ororo. That is precisely why Claremont decided to, as he stated in 1979, "cut her down to roughly where Storm is." If she had been at Ororo's power levels all along, he wouldn't have needed to "cut her down."

3. I dont agree with the part about neither characters receiving enhancements. Phoenix was a concept that came well after Jean was created in the 60s.

And Jean being classified as having "infinite mental powers" happened way in advance of the creation of Phoenix.

later retcons have made it to where they are supposed to be the same but even now Jean rejected the Phoenix as it was holding her back and it now resides with another host. there can be contradictions as to what the Phoenix is and what she is to Jean depending on who you [talk] to

Oh, I agree on this, but again, I stress: Jean was classified as having "infinite mental powers" in 1968, shortly after Xavier awakened her telepathy, which she was able to use to track and psi-scan an "electronic [robotic] brain." That was nearly ten years before either Ororo or Claremont came to X-Men.

nevertheless, i think credit should be given where its due. Claremont wanted a new Jean, this resulted hmun her displaying a power that was equivalent in power to storm. that power was Phoenix. this was all at least from Claremont.

Again, you are not only misinterpreting or misrepresenting (I can't quite tell) Claremont's statements—he clearly states he "cut her down to roughly where Storm is"—you are ignoring the fact that he was not the writer who attributed "infinite mental powers" to Jean. Again, that happened nearly a decade before he became the writer for X-Men. At best, he chose to further explore this by making Jean evolve into Phoenix. Jean having "infinite mental powers" never came about because of or was dependent on the Phoenix Force.

[Micabe]

Odd, that Ororo would say "-- the Gods aren't protecting you, T'Challa...", is this moment before or after her ascendancy?

[Mercury]

Do you mean this article?
Attachment 121376
Attachment 121377

Dont know what you two are going on about but looks fun.

Yep. That's the article from 1982. This is the article from 1979, which I've highlighted:

[butterflykyss]

Do you mean this article?
Attachment 121376
Attachment 121377

Dont know what you two are going on about but looks fun.

yes thats it

@mercury: I will respond in bit gotta a bit of work to do lol

[Mercury]

yes thats it

@mercury: I will respond in bit gotta a bit of work to do lol

No worries. As I said to you via Twitter DM, you and I really do know how to gnaw on a bone, don't we? 🤣

[The Regent]

Odd, that Ororo would say "-- the Gods aren't protecting you, T'Challa...", is this moment before or after her ascendancy?

That stood out to me as well... despite ignoring her own divinity, it's as if she sort of dismissed the gods as well which is not like her. Unless this is just the more "edgy" angle their trying to go for.

[Reigna]

And as to whether storm was cosmic or not I mean wasnt she? Her earliest incarnation had magazines comparing her to freaking Thor who is by all means a cosmic charachter and was being lauded as the most powerful woman in all of comic. Even her using the solar winds to create a cosmic storm to take out that sentinel is a cosmic feat... plus when she casually created a cosmic elemental turbulence to shield the entire planet from deadly solar flares. Or even the galactic core feat. I see rouge storm as basically claremoth trying to let his audience know that storm is waay more powerful than she lets on or that she even knows. but she is not going the cosmic route simply because the deeper she goes into her power the more she loses her humanity. And that is perfectly symbolized in the fact that ewing believes her to have the power of a god in a literal sense, absolute power is hers if she wants she simply doesnt wish it because it is something she has seen for a long time as an anthema to her humanity.


I will bring up this scan again where she talks about feeling the power of the crystal of ultimate vision

Attachment 121378

Claremoth wrote this and it says again this is power storm had felt only once before and the crystal gives one ultimate power through awareness connection

The Crystal of Ultimate Vision grants its user ultimate understanding of the cosmos and beyond, thus resulting in penultimate capability through a solipsistic effect shared between the diamond and its possessor

This deep understanding of the universe grants the user of the crystal ultimate power over it. Now this has everything to do with storm whose powers described by rouge gives her a deep awareness of everything around her seeing everything as patterns of force and energy

Attachment 121379

When rachel hijacks storm to create the global hyperstorm it is said that she deepened storm's connection to the elements hence allowing her to access a higher level of power.
And rouge even spouts the same thing storm said about feeling the power of the crystal, saying that nothing seems beyond her

Attachment 121380

Claremoth stated it multiple times on panel that storm perceives not just the weather but the entire universe/reality as patterns of force and energy and can bend this to her command. It is power that is deep within her an awful strength which she must wrestle night and day lest she loses control. And it's this that control and internal discipline that has made her the x-men with the most powerful will. Maybe storm will one day let go and become one with the universe but right here, right now she loves nothing more than living in her life protecting all her people and being human.


All I have said are things claremoth himself has written he has given interviews about how pheonix and storm are equal in power and stuff like that. But in the end his story is for marvel and marvel retconned/expanded with or without his approval to make the pheonix a cosmic force that inhabited jean and with that came it's own lore and a whole host of cosmological shenanigans which we have now. But originally jean was supposed to reach storm's level of power a universal hero, the one who was seen as the weakest by her teammates achieving her true potential and how that potential and power ultimately lead to her downfall. The changes to the lore which now lead to white pheonix and all that seems to be popular with many jean fans and that's great many people love Jean sinlly because pheonix, weather that's a good pr bad thing is not easy to say. But it also comes with the advent of bastardization of a beautiful concept which means if jean can get the bird then everyone and their mother can also get the bird.

[jwatson]

LOL Well, first she will need to fight Everyone on Arakko at the same time in order for her to even be considered a God. But i'm sure she wouldn't have that much a problem. I have a Playlist in mind. HAHAHAHA

i just picture. stormcircleperilus.jpg "Who summoned me, bro?!" lol

[jwatson]

Odd, that Ororo would say "-- the Gods aren't protecting you, T'Challa...", is this moment before or after her ascendancy?

Scene actually made sense to me. Tchalla thought a god would show up to strike down the goons and when the goon went to kill him a goddess did. Whether she accepts it or not his prayer was answered. Didn't really sound like tchalla but i guess it was a good nod. i would have to see the rest of the context.

[Reigna]

i just picture. stormcircleperilus.jpg "Who summoned me, bro?!" lol

I mean she is known as ororo who tamed the circle and has fought hordes of arakii at once just to hold her seat. So getting them to worship her wont be that difficult. They already know what she is made of. Plus I dont she even wants to be worshiped? I dont think storm has wanted to be worshiped she always seemed embrassed by that. She is a god and a mutant but she diesnt like when people guneflect in adoration to her holy name.

[jwatson]

I mean she is known as ororo who tamed the circle and has fought hordes of arakii at once just to hold her seat. So getting them to worship her wont be that difficult. They already know what she is made of. Plus I dont she even wants to be worshiped? I dont think storm has wanted to be worshiped she always seemed embrassed by that. She is a god and a mutant but she diesnt like when people guneflect in adoration to her holy name.

Lol exactly why i find it potentially the most exciting way to explore it in the x-books if it ever was. If Storm was summoned to the Circle or has been in the past then given Arraki law which the whole point of the brotherhood is to respect and protect it's culture, she would not run. So it doesn't matter if she wanted it or not it would be the first time Ororo was in a position where she would just have to do it. The internal dialogue alone in the potential scenes could be amazing. But that's just letting the mind wonder stuff which is fun sometimes. lol

[Cyclone_Ablaze]

i just picture. stormcircleperilus.jpg "Who summoned me, bro?!" lol

I LOVE it!!!

It would be even more Cool if she arrived liked this when she is summoned.

[jwatson]

I mean she is known as ororo who tamed the circle and has fought hordes of arakii at once just to hold her seat. So getting them to worship her wont be that difficult. They already know what she is made of. Plus I dont she even wants to be worshiped? I dont think storm has wanted to be worshiped she always seemed embrassed by that. She is a god and a mutant but she diesnt like when people guneflect in adoration to her holy name.

I missed it the first time. lol. Low key Ewing already addressed Storm being a god on Arrako because if she tamed the circle then the Arrakians think she is worthy of worship. lol. How did i completely miss that. LMAO. i had to go back and look at Red 2. lol Ewing did that and so did Spurrier. I hope we get to see the scene. Maybe the flashes Storm was having was of her battle in the Circle rather than directly for her seat or they could be one in the same.

circletamer.jpg

Though in honesty this could also be reductive reaching on my part. lol

[seccruz]

Odd, that Ororo would say "-- the Gods aren't protecting you, T'Challa...", is this moment before or after her ascendancy?

For the Goddess' sake, Black Panther writer... Let her go! T'Challa is way toxic for her!

[BPStorm2]

For the Goddess' sake, Black Panther writer... Let her go! T'Challa is way toxic for her!

Lol a lot of people like them together, I’m guilty they working it out lol. I think they’re trying to fix past problems due to the complaints of bad writing when it come to them 2. I see nothing wrong with them being together. I think later on they should have at least one canon kid to handle both their “mantles”/ continue their story.