Ororo Munroe: Storm/Hadari Yao/Regent of Sol Appreciation 2022

[BobbysWorld]

Anyway, personally, that's why I'm a big fan of Storm and Bobby as ultimate allies....because they don't really work as enemies and there's so much more they can do together than at odds. The only real loser in a fight between them is going to be just....everything around them, lol. Because while THEY may be able to survive everything the other throws at them, the uh....rest of a planet and the people around them are not nearly as....durable.

Also, just want to clarify.....while I've talked a lot about how some omegas have natural advantages over others, I tend to avoid trying to rank them as some being more powerful than others, because I think when you're talking about beings who by their very definition have limitless potential....rankings kinda become arbitrary and pointless, if that makes sense? And personally, I don't think who could beat whom is actually the best barometer of whether one character is more powerful than the other....because how useful a power is in conflict is not the only measure of whether or not a power is useful or potent, y'know?

Especially with omegas, there's just so damn MANY ways their powers can all be used, that one-on-one fights are only like, one specific angle to their powers. Yeah, I might think Bobby can survive anything Storm throws at him, and she can't fully 'beat' him in a fight....but does that make him more powerful than her, per se? I don't actually think so and so I want to be clear that's not what I'm arguing with this. Because from another angle, it has to be acknowledged that there's a million more ways Storm's powers can be used to enrich a planet or do productive things via its weather systems, while Bobby - no matter how powerful he is - is far more limited in how he can wield his powers on a global scale. Like yeah, he can create another Ice Age, but Storm can do that too, on top of all the other stuff she can do with the weather, so.....from that angle, its obviously not like Bobby is more powerful than Storm. And then the flip side is Bobby can manifest himself in multiple locations simultaneously, and theoretically there's nothing saying he can't do this even across multiple planets, and Storm for all her power doesn't I think have a way she can exist as multiple avatars capable of being spread across different planets at the same time.....but again, this doesn't make Bobby more powerful full stop, it just means he can do things she can't, just as she can do things he can't.

Whatever outcome you personally cater to when it comes to which of them would win in a full-out fight, like, will only ever be one aspect of how powerful each is. Like Isca by her very nature is theoretically one of the hardest omegas to defeat in a fight (though as I've said before, I do think there are specific omegas who could beat her as they all have advantages over certain other omegas while also having vulnerabilities to others), but like, point is....there's very VERY few people, even among the known omegas, who could actually beat Isca. But its not like that makes Isca the most powerful of the omegas, because for all that her power affords her possibly the MOST advantages in the specific arena of combat.....that concentration means there's less variety in OTHER ways her power can be used, and so when you're talking about which omegas are most powerful in discussions that DON'T involve fighting....Isca's name is hardly ever going to come up in stuff like 'Top Five Omegas Who Can Affect The Most Changes On A Global Scale.'

[jwatson]

This actually made me think, storm transcending her body should be a given. Her power are limited by the strength of her body and will meaning her will and body also have an undefinable upper limit much like Bobby except as implied because of the nature of his powers in the beginning they manifested more physical and so his body was tied to it whereas Storm started on a spiritual journey and so her mind expanded first. I believe claremont in xtreme was hinting to the evolution of Storm body but it never came to pass. Her and iceman can learn a lot from each other, he is reserved but more emotional she is emotional but more reserved. Also as hinted by many his weakness is what he thinks he can do where as Storm's limit is what she has not needed to physically do. Theres a real balance there. He needs to be more reserved and perhaps spiritual and Storm needs to be put in a place where her physical must evolve to keep up with her endless spiritual will.

*There were too many character so rather than edit BobbysWorld's great posts.*

[jwatson]

But i would add given the nature of Rogue storm i would prefer storm elemental form rather than being something universal be a direct correlation to whatever planet or space she is in and communing with it. Like in space communing with multiple stars and connecting with them or how rogue storm was connected to all the primal forces of earth. I think "Rogue Storm" would look different on Arrako. I think it would also keep her elemental form unique and sometimes something that even has to be worked at.

[BobbysWorld]

Tbh when I picture Storm's elemental form, I tend to think of space nebulas. They're basically like galactic clouds, so if you imagine her as kinda a humanoid nebula you have a built in variability where like, the exact composition of her elemental form is different depending on her surroundings. So on Earth, it would be more like an actual cloud, whereas if she were in an environment like Jupiter or Neptune, the colors would be different and her form would be more like clouds of methane gas. And in space, it'd be like an actual nebula, etc.

[Subliminally]

@BobbysWorld

Absolutely brilliant post as usual! I admire how you can frame it in such a way that it's obvious that you aren't saying X wins against X due to YZ but pretty much build up on both characters.

[Subliminally]

But i would add given the nature of Rogue storm i would prefer storm elemental form rather than being something universal be a direct correlation to whatever planet or space she is in and communing with it. Like in space communing with multiple stars and connecting with them or how rogue storm was connected to all the primal forces of earth. I think "Rogue Storm" would look different on Arrako. I think it would also keep her elemental form unique and sometimes something that even has to be worked at.

See I sort of had this same brain wave but it was just in terms of personality. Like would Storm's connection to Arakko have subtle shifts in her personality compared to what she's like on Earth? Who's to say that empathy... that connectiveness... isn't a two way street?

But yeah, like you and BobbysWorld said, it would be very believable (and honestly more visually striking and serve to separate her from the other elemental metamorphs in comics) that she would shift depending on her environment much like her powers already do.

[Grunty]

I swear that's just a mental limit Bobby has. It makes zero - ZERO - sense for him to be KOed in icemode by physical means. Like my guy, you can literally lay on top of a land mine and be a-ok, yet get dropped by a lightning bolt? To me this is right up there with Storm being hurt by lightning/electrical attacks.

I once read he de-powered himself during M-Day so clearly it's well within his mental abilities to hold himself back.

I hope that if Storm ever gets her elemental form that she doesn't suffer from such foolishness.

The super natural powers people can display in fantasy and sci-fi works, including super hero comics, tend to come with the implication of two seldomly if ever mentioned supportive elements, which are however highly necessary.

First there are the natural safety mechanism and limiters which prevent them from being harmed by their own powers or overextending their powers too frequently to the point of self harm, similar to how humans normaly don't exert 100% of their muscle powers as that would cause too much damage to the fibres.

For example the fact that most shape shifters can always revert back to their original appearance without having to even imagine it, essentialy having a default state that is activated when they switch their powers of and seldomly suffering from a loss of identity, can be attributed to such a safety mechanism being in place (in this case preventing psychic harm).

Second there are "minor" super powers which would logicaly be necessary in order for the primary powers to work. For example for Cyclops eye beams to work without killimg him, he wouldn't just require eyes that can somehow project massive amounts of kinetic energy, but also the ability to reabsorb or negate the reactive forces of such energy projection.

If either or both of these don't work properly it's usualy used for drama or to present a world of super powers in a very bleak way (like when a writer who hates super hero comics tries to make fun of them by trying to convince the reader how "silly" the whole thing would be in the "real world").

The manga My Hero Academia for example has a character who's father had fire based powers and mother had ice based powers. As a result his body has the safety mechanism to handle ice powers and extremely low temperatures, but his actual super powers are fire based. The result is that he constantly harms himself when he uses his powers.

To bring this back to Iceman.

It's logical to assume that he has safety mechanism which constantly make him default back to his human form similar to a shape shifter and minor powers which allow him to keep percieving the world in the way of a normal human even when his entire body is no longer made of organic substance.

Essentialy the ice form comes so naturaly to him because he always has the feeling of still being in his organic form. Which also extends to when his body is damaged or destroyed, as he only needs to concentrate on assembling the water from his environment to beginn the monecular assembly process, the rest is done via his subconscious reset switch.

Pro: He doesn't have to finely re-assemble himself atom by atom like Doctor Manhatten in Watchman had to do (and could only do so because of how pedantic and logical he was as human).
Con: He likely still subconsciously reacts to physical harm like he would do with an organic body.

So i'm pretty sure you are on point with your suggestion on why these events occur. Albeit similar mechanisms and minor powers would also be in effect if Storm would gain an elemental form as the alternative would mean a constant danger of loss of identity or physical manifestation.

[Subliminally]

The super natural powers people can display in fantasy and sci-fi works, including super hero comics, tend to come with the implication of two seldomly if ever mentioned supportive elements, which are however highly necessary.

First there are the natural safety mechanism and limiters which prevent them from being harmed by their own powers or overextending their powers too frequently to the point of self harm, similar to how humans normaly don't exert 100% of their muscle powers as that would cause too much damage to the fibres.

For example the fact that most shape shifters can always revert back to their original appearance without having to even imagine it, essentialy having a default state that is activated when they switch their powers of and seldomly suffering from a loss of identity, can be attributed to such a safety mechanism being in place (in this case preventing psychic harm).

Second there are "minor" super powers which would logicaly be necessary in order for the primary powers to work. For example for Cyclops eye beams to work without killimg him, he wouldn't just require eyes that can somehow project massive amounts of kinetic energy, but also the ability to reabsorb or negate the reactive forces of such energy projection.

If either or both of these don't work properly it's usualy used for drama or to present a world of super powers in a very bleak way (like when a writer who hates super hero comics tries to make fun of them by trying to convince the reader how "silly" the whole thing would be in the "real world").

The manga My Hero Academia for example has a character who's father had fire based powers and mother had ice based powers. As a result his body has the safety mechanism to handle ice powers and extremely low temperatures, but his actual super powers are fire based. The result is that he constantly harms himself when he uses his powers.

To bring this back to Iceman.

It's logical to assume that he has safety mechanism which constantly make him default back to his human form similar to a shape shifter and minor powers which allow him to keep percieving the world in the way of a normal human even when his entire body is no longer made of organic substance.

Essentialy the ice form comes so naturaly to him because he always has the feeling of still being in his organic form. Which also extends to when his body is damaged or destroyed, as he only needs to concentrate on assembling the water from his environment to beginn the monecular assembly process, the rest is done via his subconscious reset switch.

Pro: He doesn't have to finely re-assemble himself atom by atom like Doctor Manhatten in Watchman had to do (and could only do so because of how pedantic and logical he was as human).
Con: He likely still subconsciously reacts to physical harm like he would do with an organic body.

So i'm pretty sure you are on point with your suggestion on why these events occur. Albeit similar mechanisms and minor powers would also be in effect if Storm would gain an elemental form as the alternative would mean a constant danger of loss of identity or physical manifestation.

Interesting breakdown, Grunty! Thanks for posting.

[StormBorn06]

See I sort of had this same brain wave but it was just in terms of personality. Like would Storm's connection to Arakko have subtle shifts in her personality compared to what she's like on Earth? Who's to say that empathy... that connectiveness... isn't a two way street?

But yeah, like you and BobbysWorld said, it would be very believable (and honestly more visually striking and serve to separate her from the other elemental metamorphs in comics) that she would shift depending on her environment much like her powers already do.

It would be interesting to approach the image of Eternity.

[Subliminally]

It would be interesting to approach the image of Eternity.

The closest we got was that feat from Black Panther.

[Cyclone_Ablaze]

@BobbysWorld

Well done. Great Post dude, extremely long, but nonetheless that’s was a great explanation.

[BobbysWorld]

In respect to what Grunty said, I agree that Bobby's mind instinctively compensates for differences when he's in his ice form, in order to keep his interactions with the world as normal and familiar as possible. Its worth noting that its established in canon that Bobby can view the world in terms of thermal imagery/heat patterns, similar to how Storm can shift her vision to see the world in terms of energy patterns. And since its also established that Bobby doesn't ALWAYS view the world as thermal patterns when in ice form, and he has to consciously choose to shift how he views things, whether he's in human form or ice form, that means that despite his ice form having no physiological ability to see the world in normal, human ways, his consciousness somehow retains an awareness of his surroundings that it then filters into an arrangement that matches what he expects the world to look like, as in the way it normally appears to him.

I imagine that in an elemental form, it would work pretty much the same way for Storm, with her able to shift at will back and forth between seeing the world in terms of energy patterns or 'normally.' Again, there's no way for a non biological form to take in visual data and filter it into what she perceives as 'sight' when there's no actual physiology involved...but tbh, even if its never described as such, clairvoyance is a clear part of both Bobby and Storm's powers. When they expand their minds through the atmosphere in order to use their powers in a distant location, far away from their 'main' body....this is flat out a psychic ability. This is them remote viewing, even if they're using the atmosphere as a medium through which their mind travels.

So they've always shared an ability to perceive things far removed from them with just their minds....and in elemental forms like Bobby's ice body or if Storm achieves some kind of cloud-like form or even something based on electricity or something else....this aspect of their powers is 'realistically' the only way for them to perceive ANYTHING around them. Its just their minds clairvoyantly perceiving the world around them and filtering the psychic information they accumulate into patterns and arrangements that mimic the way they're used to seeing things when in human form.

[butterflykyss]

The thing to remember with all characters is every one is vulnerable to "Lightning Lass Syndrome." Just like Storm's been written by writers who massively underestimate her and just treat her as 'woman who throws lightning and blows wind' sometimes instead of paying deference to her full capabilities, other characters are at times subject to similar treatment. Bobby .

Personally, I think at full power levels, written by a writer who's informed and aware of the many varied directions both their powers can take, it really could go either way depending on what the writer wanted to do. In practice, I don't realistically see anyone writing Storm losing to Bobby any time soon, because it doesn't match up with how they're viewed in universe or out of universe, if that makes sense? Like, on paper you could write down arguments for ways Bobby's powers could eke out a win over Storm, but in story terms, I just don't think that's a likely outcome that anyone is itching to write, y'know? I'm as diehard of a Bobby fan as they come, but realistically even I would be like....umm...if anyone actually wrote a story where both Bobby and Ororo go all out and Bobby definitively wins.

But speaking purely theoretically, I do think there's a case to be made that the most likely outcome for a full on conflict between them, if it ever happened, is that they most likely would stalemate. Both of them have things they could do that would prevent the other from definitively taking them out, BUT at the same time, neither of them is particularly vulnerable to being total KO'd by the other.

The key thing for me, with both Bobby and Ororo, and why I think relative to the whole list of omegas they have more in common than not.....is that both of them as part of their powersets have an inherent ability to expand their consciousness beyond just their body. They're not anchored to their physical forms the way most superhumans are, and thus they're not as limited in physical respects or vulnerable to just purely physical attacks.

With Bobby, the reason why is self-evident....he's shown time and again he can survive his body being destroyed either as ice or in flesh and blood form. His consciousness persists, and it just seeks out the nearest moisture to anchor itself to and use to build himself a new body. With Ororo, I'm a big believer in elemental Storm. I think she's more than shown that she's capable of expanding her consciousness beyond just her body and sorta....sending it out into the atmosphere, thus enabling her to do things like strike with a bolt of lightning from half a world away, or do things like sinking her consciousness into various weather systems, embedding her mind into an active storm and almost wielding it as an extension of herself. And similarly, even beyond Bobby's ability to create new bodies for himself, we've also seen how he's able to reach out with his power from great distances....like Ororo, he's able to expand his consciousness beyond his physicality, send it forth through the atmosphere itself and thus create golems in distant locations, teleport, etc.

Now, we've also seen alternate timelines where Storm transcends her physical form either before death or upon the death of her physical body, and exists as an elemental being. I think the only real difference between Bobby and Storm's powers in this respect is that due to the aspect of Bobby's power that lets him transmute ice and moisture into flesh and blood, he has a built in ability to always come back from physical destruction, and just rebuild a new vessel for him to pour his consciousness into. As of now, at least, (with this I think having the potential to change in the future), Storm hasn't yet been shown using her powers in a way that would let her build a new flesh and blood body for herself to put her consciousness into if her physical form is destroyed. But as I've talked about the ways some degree of transmutation is inherent in her ability to move around matter and energy back and forth between solid and energy states when manipulating weather systems.....I think the potential is definitely there for her to figure out how to use this to at least create some kind of new physical form in the event of her body being destroyed.

However, regardless of Storm someday using her power in that way, building a new biological vessel for herself isn't essential for her to transcend her physicality and survive the death of her body. I think the same consciousness expanding aspect of her power that we see Bobby use to survive death is something she also can do....even if she can't necessarily make a new body, she doesn't NEED to, for her consciousness to persist and for her to still be able to act as an independent entity and affect the material world. I'd argue that you could easily write Storm's body being killed and her mind just being 'released' by that rather than ending with her body....and with her then able to use any weather system as a kind of 'body' she anchors herself to, similar to how Bobby anchors himself to moisture whenever he 'dies.'

My point with all of this is ultimately I see Ororo sharing the same trait that makes Bobby particularly hard to DEFINITIVELY beat, even among omegas......the physical aspects of their powers are just ONE aspect of their abilities. They share an ability to exist and act beyond and independent of their bodies in a way that even the omega level reality warpers don't all have. (Proteus has this aspect to his powers too, for example, but Jamie Braddock does not).

So the thing with both Bobby and Ororo is to FULLY defeat them....its not enough to just attack them on a physical level. You also have to have some means of defeating them on a mental/consciousness level. An opponent has to be able to simultaneously attack them, limit them, contain them....in respect to both their bodies AND their minds.

Otherwise, it doesn't matter what you do to their bodies, or how thoroughly you destroy them or how often....you'd still be stuck having to contend with their ability to exist and attack you even without a body, let alone keep coming back or finding new ways to physically exist after the demise of their original forms.

And this shared aspect to their abilities is also why I think even though there are tons of omegas that both of them could beat on their own, and specific ones both of them would be vulnerable to....neither of them are likely to ever be able to fully defeat the other and any all-out conflict between them would ultimately end in a draw of some kind. Because while both of them can exist beyond just their physical form, and continue to attack or fight on even without being in a physical body, because they have that mental, expanded consciousness aspect to their powers in a DEFENSIVE capacity....neither of their powers come with an ability to go on the OFFENSIVE against another consciousness. They can affect matter and energy with their powers, but there's nothing in their powersets that can target a nonphysical psyche, if that makes sense?

And since the survivability of their nonphysical psyches is the very thing that makes both of them so hard to definitively beat....without an ability to attack the other's nonphysical psyche directly, at most they'd be able to destroy each other's physical vessels. Or alternatively, they could keep their physical form 'safe' at a distance, and expand their minds through the atmosphere/elemental mediums and kinda....'snipe' at each other from a distance, sending out ranged attacks like lightning strikes from the other side of the planet or golems that Bobby controls from a distance.

So yeah, ultimately I think in an optimal scenario where both characters are being written with full awareness of all the potential in each of their powers.....the most likely outcome is they'd stalemate, with both able to survive anything the other throws at them, but neither able to take the other out in the specific ways required to FULLY defeat them. There's tons of ways Storm can attack him that Bobby just flat out can not defend against or prevent, and she could do most of it from the other side of the planet, far out of his immediate reach and thus 'safe' from immediate reprisals. But he doesn't have to prevent or defend against her many attacks, is the thing....its enough that he can survive them. There's nothing Storm can attack Bobby with that he can't come back from, so even a full barrage of her most powerful attacks is just going to result in him just reforming again and again, either right there or a world away.

But on the other hand, while Storm can't STOP Bobby from existing as a disembodied consciousness, or prevent him from finding some moisture SOMEWHERE to anchor himself to and thus return.....it IS completely within Storm's capabilities to mess with and disrupt all the moisture in her immediate area, and thus prevent Bobby from reforming in her VICINITY, as well as deprive him of the mediums he needs to attack her from a distance.

And thus....inevitable stalemate. At some point, I think its unavoidable that they'd just be like.....well I haven't lost, and I'm not going to lose....but I can't technically win either. Ultimately a fight between them is going to end with them both far away from each other and metaphorically licking their wounds, but not necessarily any worse off than they were at the start of their fight.

great post Bobby. I would offer one challenge though to the statement about her not having the ability to attack the non-physical psyche. I believe her hadari yao powers would grant her this.

[Micabe]

̶g̶r̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶t̶ ̶B̶o̶b̶b̶y̶.̶ I would offer one challenge though to the statement about her not having the ability to attack the non-physical psyche. I believe her hadari yao powers would grant her this.

If Ororo's X-Gene grants her the ability to manipulate Planetary and Space Weather Phenomena what if her X-Gene was effectively negated via someone like Wipeout (has he been resurrected yet?), Forge's Neutralizer gun, or an Inhibitor Collar --

The Sun literally generates the weather that populates and pervades the solar system. In our society, growing in technical dependence, the constant drip of space weather can impact ground-based infrastructure, drains satellite systems in space, presents a radiation hazard to robotic and human explorers while also protecting us from relativistic cosmic rays that penetrate from deep space, that beyond our solar system.

-- how would her "Hadari Yao" powers manifest and what would her energy signature look like?

[BobbysWorld]

great post Bobby. I would offer one challenge though to the statement about her not having the ability to attack the non-physical psyche. I believe her hadari yao powers would grant her this.

Oh agreed, it absolutely could do that. I wouldn't discount that at all. To be clear, I don't really factor things pertaining to Storm's godhood, Hadari Yao, etc, into my posts about her powers or omegas in general....mostly because they're a total wildcard. I absolutely agree that changes the entire equation and adds an element that no other omega mutant has, but there's kinda....no real boundaries in place because its not a direction that's really been explored yet in the books, y'know? So its not that its not relevant, its that until such a point as they DO decide to explore that direction for Storm, there's not really much that can be said about how it factors into her power levels because theoretically there's no end to the ways they could change or expand Storm's powers once that's factored in. Like once you bring Storm as Hadari Yao into the picture, the picture's blown wide open and there's no real way to keep it in frame anymore, at least not until stories establish new parameters or framework for what Storm's like at that point.

So I mean, for sure, Hadari Yao is like an ultimate trump card that once applied makes any discussion of Storm's existing parameters irrelevant....but that same...indeterminance? Over how much it would change things and in what specific ways, kinda? That's why I tend to leave it out of these discussions because for now, its undefined enough that its TOO hypothetical, in the sense that we literally just don't have enough to work with, in order to come up with a specific picture of what specifically that adds to the pot.