Ororo Munroe: Storm/Hadari Yao/Regent of Sol Appreciation 2022

[MindofShadow]

im not gone lie that is rough... im sorry.

I thought we reached the low of the low but then T'challa gets beat up by non powered wakandan red shirts, talks like he's a middle class black american and not an african king, and gets saved by his maybe maybe not girlfriend/goddess.

Just gotta throw your hands up at some point lol

[Reigna]

At least y'all can always count on BP writers to treat you well

http://www.multiversitycomics.com/pr...nther-vol-8-2/

Oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh. I haven't really been following this bo run but will definately follow now.

[Cyclone_Ablaze]

And this underscores my previous post on how other writers may use the character when not directly linked to the main story...Lightning Lass to the rescue! No shade. Could Ridley have been more imaginative with her powers? Perhaps. But she's not the focus in his story so he really doesn't need to be.

LOL I rather her NOT be there, but whatever.......

Yupp.
How many times does Storm have to free him from his captors? It was fine back when they were teenagers in the Serengeti but now, years later, still? An argument could have been made if they were still married but they're not and whether in a relationship or not...Dude needs to be able to handle his own, on his own, like the T'Challa we knew.

LOL I swear you be saying the things I be thinking!!!. Here were are years later and Storm is STILL bailing him out? Their relationship is going nowhere, but whatever I guess we got to watch them Dance this same ol Dance.

[Reigna]

YESSSSS they doing storm right lol

They really do dont they it feels like they are the only office that consistently knows her worth and what she truly means to many. Then again they are mostly black people so they get why storm is soooo important even when the xoffice themselves forget, which they often do Sans a few writers.

[chief12d]

Yupp.
How many times does Storm have to free him from his captors? It was fine back when they were teenagers in the Serengeti but now, years later, still? An argument could have been made if they were still married but they're not and whether in a relationship or not...Dude needs to be able to handle his own, on his own, like the T'Challa we knew.

But that requires writers to actually want to elevate T'Challa in his own book. Ridley said all the right things in the interviews but his run is basically a sequel to Coates with all the same trappings. Atrocious pacing, nonsensical dialogue where everyone sounds the same, next to zero positive black male representation outside T'Challa, who himself is written as incompetent and borderline toxic because writers hate the idea of the king of Wakanda actually being a good king.

Storm is most likely in the book because modern BP sales are typically mediocre to outright bad and she's the only reliable way of propping up sales because she has a huge fanbase and the bar for satisfying them is low. Storm's gonna save T'Challa and complain about the spy program, then either kiss or have sex with him before going back to Mars. Rinse and repeat next arc when T'Challa screws up again lol. We've done this like 3 times in a row now across like 5 years.

[Mercury]

1. That initial interview was conducted during period in which there was a misogynistic belief women were not capable of certain power displays so it makes sense that Marvel would not credit a female with cosmic power. However, disregard this. Would anyone suggest that green Phoenix, even though editorial suggested she couldn't be depicted as such, was not a cosmic being based upon her feats before going dark?

I agree with the first part—this is precisely why Claremont wasn't allowed to maintain Jean as the first female cosmic superhero and felt the need to, to use his words,"cut her down to roughly where Storm is." This leads me to my next points and reply to your subsequent claim:

If I concede and acknowledge that Ororo during that period was not a cosmic being(even though as I pointed out the classic xmen retcon clearly supports said claim), Claremont in both articles still stated Jean was given Phoenix to be at Ororo's power level.

Again, in neither of the two quotes—the ones from 1979 and 1982, respectively—does Claremont state or even intimate that "Jean was given Phoenix to be at Ororo's power level.

The 1979 quote: "Dave and I kind of liked the idea that we had a female character who was cosmic. No one else did....We couldn’t have a lady character who’s cosmic, because—well, his argument was that it made the rest of the X-Men superfluous...So, anyway, we were told, Dave and I, that Phoenix could not be cosmic....We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine.”

This quote clearly establishes three things: 1) There was no mystical/metaphysical female cosmic superhero in the X-Men, or perhaps even in Marvel, at the time; 2) Phoenix had been conceived as being more powerful than Ororo; and 3) Claremont makes no mention of being influenced or inspired by Ororo to create Phoenix. The only relation in terms of creation between Phoenix and Ororo at that point was Claremont's decision to "cut [Phoenix] down to roughly where Storm is" because a) they couldn't have a female cosmic superhero and b) Ororo wasn't considered a female cosmic superhero.

How you interpret the above as him saying "Jean was given Phoenix to be at Ororo's power level" is a mystery to me. (And I mean this sincerely, i.e., I'm not being cute, crafty, or clever.) The only thing I can assume is that you are assuming Claremont wanted to make Jean as powerful as Ororo when it's clear his impetus in creating Phoenix was to a) explore Jean's already established "infinite" potential (more on that below) and b) create the first female cosmic superhero—again, something he did not consider Ororo to be.

The 1982 quote: "We had originally envisioned that [Jean/Phoenix] had a power level that was equivalent to Storm's and that the saving the universe was a one-time-only stunt, that it was Jean achieving her full potential for that one moment."

Even if we take this quote as being somehow more accurate or truthful than the quote from three years before, it also clearly establishes two things: Again, 1) Claremont makes no mention of being influenced or inspired by Ororo to create Phoenix; he only states their powers were equivalent after Jean/Phoenix repairs the M'Kraan Crystal and is powered down, which substantiates what he said in the first quote, and 2) it is clear that he considered Phoenix a female cosmic superhero up to the point when she fought Firelord and repaired the M'Kraan Crystal, hence why he says the latter was "a one-time-only stunt, that it was Jean achieving her full potential for that one moment."

Again, nowhere does he state or indicate that "Jean was given Phoenix to be at Ororo's power level."

So we either accept that the original Phoenix wasn't cosmic but was "cut down" to Ororos level (which was still much higher than Jean's at that time) or we accept that Phoenix was a cosmic beimg but still was amped to Storm's level. Either way both articles indicate that Jean was given Phoenix to put her own Ororos power and was a drastic increasein power from her original baseline.

I think it's easy to misunderstand the trajectory of events based on the seemingly contradictory wording in the two quotes. To be clear, Jean/Phoenix was a cosmic superhero more powerful than Ororo the moment she emerged from Jamaica Bay, and all throughout her fight with Firelord—a cosmic supervillain—and her subsequent repair of the M'Kraan Crystal. After, however, as Claremont noted in 1979, she was powered down to be at Ororo's level.

As for either quote indicating that Jean received a "drastic increase in power from her original baseline," I disagree. The 1968 panel, which predates the creation of Ororo and Claremont becoming the main X-writer, had already established that she had no baseline but rather "infinite mental powers". Mind you, as I've noted before, this wasn't just a human indulging in hyperbole; this was a highly advanced, bio-sensor-equipped A.I. making a calculated observation.

In short, Claremont only delved into and began to explore what had already been established regarding Jean's mental abilities nearly a decade earlier, i.e., that she possesses "infinite mental powers." Respectfully, just like you don't consider Ororo's internal dialogue regarding being able to control the "cosmic storm" a throwaway line, I don't consider an A.I.'s assessment of Jean's mental abilities a throwaway line either. I think it's clear that Jean and Ororo's histories are important to both of us, respectively.

2. Solar winds are a natural phenomena so that is a fair point. However, if we are to ignore what Ororo did during the Phoenix saga that would support she was a cosmic being or could be one...

I never ignored this. I clearly stated that she and Corsair acted as anchors to Jean/Phoenix when she was repairing the M'Kraan Crystal, keeping her tethered to the "human plane of reality." However, are we now saying Corsair is a mystical/metaphysical cosmic superhero as well? Because, the last time I checked, he's human, and yet, as noted, he also served as an anchor to Jean/Phoenix when she repaired the M'Kraan Crystal.

Claremont demonstrated two times she was able to achieve "cosmic" power. One was Roguestorm where she was described to have near infinite power and was even hinted to perhaps becoming dark phoenix and the second was when she described her powers as allowing her to draw power/sustenance from both the spiritual (metaphysical) and material aspects of the galatic core, which she was able to utilize in becoming a star for a brief moment.

I don't dispute this, but to be clear, these feats came after the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas. Moreover, as I stated in my last reply, "This doesn't invalidate Ororo or negate her space weather/cosmic storm feat or role as a groundbreaking female and, more importantly, black female character. It also doesn't invalidate or contradict her later feats and upgrades, especially after the death of Jean/Phoenix."

Again, I think Claremont was definitely allowing Ororo to flex her cosmic muscles in a way that wouldn't be too obviously offensive to those who viewed women incapable of said showings. Nevertheless, if one saw these as cosmic showings or not the fact remains Jean was given Phoenix level abilities to put her on Ororo's power level.

I've already effectively proven that the bolded claim is not only false but explicitly contradicts what Claremont actually said. In either case, the bottom line is this: Since Phoenix became the first female cosmic superhero (see the Phoenix Saga) and supervillain (see the Dark Phoenix Saga), both Jean and Ororo have displayed increased powers and abilities without any augmentations but, instead, true to both their canonical histories. This thread is filled—wonderfully so—with many of Ororo's feats, proving exactly what she can do.

As for Jean, she has proven multiple times over that she can transcend the compromisation and destruction of her body and live on as an entity of pure thought without the aid of or being bonded to the Phoenix Force, which is in line with her "infinite mental powers," as established in 1968. She has also proven that she can telekinetically reconstruct her body after it has been essentially atomized. It is of no concern to me that she has not been shown doing this during the Krakoan era, just as I know and expect it to be of no concern to you or anyone else in this thread that Ororo hasn't been shown displaying some of her greater feats during this era.

Ultimately, as I said before, we should be celebrating them instead of comparing them to or pitting them against one another. Lastly, if you want to continue this discussion, I suggest we do it via Twitter DMs, so as not to continue to derail this thread. I've noted some fans are growing displeased with this discussion, and I can understand why.

[Devaishwarya]

[QUOTE=Cyclone_Ablaze;6063356]LOL I rather her NOT be there, but whatever.......

Oh, Absofukkenlutely! She's about as relevant to this BP story as the grass on which T'Challa is standing. Whatever...indeed.

[butterflykyss]

I thought we reached the low of the low but then T'challa gets beat up by non powered wakandan red shirts, talks like he's a middle class black american and not an african king, and gets saved by his maybe maybe not girlfriend/goddess.

Just gotta throw your hands up at some point lol

wait so you think Ridley is worse than Coates???


(this next part is not directed to you mind)..


before reading this post to whom it applies press play:






NOW..... can I just say to everyone and anyone who thought vita story broke them up yall were all wrong and I told ya so.

[Cyclone_Ablaze]

[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;6063367]

LOL I rather her NOT be there, but whatever.......

Oh, Absofukkenlutely! She's about as relevant to this BP story as the grass on which T'Challa is standing. Whatever...indeed.

Sounds like to me T'Challa needs Storm in order to Stand LOL haha

[MindofShadow]

wait so you think Ridley is worse than Coates???

Ridley sucks at different things so far.

TBH, hard to judge a 6 year story vs 6 issues but I am not optimistic at all at this point.

[chief12d]

wait so you think Ridley is worse than Coates???


(this next part is not directed to you mind)..


before reading this post to whom it applies press play:






NOW..... can I just say to everyone and anyone who thought vita story broke them up yall were all wrong and I told ya so.

The story is getting ignored, that doesn't mean they didn't break up. You literally can't read the events of that story as anything other than a very clear wedge being put between the characters. She was basically banished from the kingdom when she was denied free passage. Wakanda didn't become an enemy but the personal relationship between the two characters was ended, you can't not allow someone into your house and continue to consider them a friend, let alone an actual partner. We can assume there was some sort of off-panel discussion in between the events of XOS and Last Annihilation, but XOS was a break up issue to pretty much everyone who read with an open mind.

And since we know the direction of Wakanda-Krakoa relations was meant to look very different under Hickman, it's likely whatever story the whole Skybreaker garbage was meant to set up was dropped. Had the baby happened, the XOS stuff would've further enflamed tensions and Storm and T'Challa would've remained separated for a time (until the unification of both nations, which likely would've culminated with them getting back together.) But it's fairly obvious that even if the BP office didn't want the baby they still wanted Storm so the Skybreaker nonsense Vita tried to push never went any further. She tried it though lol.

[butterflykyss]

I agree with the first part—this is precisely why Claremont wasn't allowed to maintain Jean as the first female cosmic superhero and felt the need to, to use his words,"cut her down to roughly where Storm is." This leads me to my next points and reply to your subsequent claim:



Again, in neither of the two quotes—the ones from 1979 and 1982, respectively—does Claremont state or even intimate that "Jean was given Phoenix to be at Ororo's power level.

The 1979 quote: "Dave and I kind of liked the idea that we had a female character who was cosmic. No one else did....We couldn’t have a lady character who’s cosmic, because—well, his argument was that it made the rest of the X-Men superfluous...So, anyway, we were told, Dave and I, that Phoenix could not be cosmic....We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine.”

This quote clearly establishes three things: 1) There was no mystical/metaphysical female cosmic superhero in the X-Men, or perhaps even in Marvel, at the time; 2) Phoenix had been conceived as being more powerful than Ororo; and 3) Claremont makes no mention of being influenced or inspired by Ororo to create Phoenix. The only relation in terms of creation between Phoenix and Ororo at that point was Claremont's decision to "cut [Phoenix] down to roughly where Storm is" because a) they couldn't have a female cosmic superhero and b) Ororo wasn't considered a female cosmic superhero.

How you interpret the above as him saying "Jean was given Phoenix to be at Ororo's power level" is a mystery to me. (And I mean this sincerely, i.e., I'm not being cute, crafty, or clever.) The only thing I can assume is that you are assuming Claremont wanted to make Jean as powerful as Ororo when it's clear his impetus in creating Phoenix was to a) explore Jean's already established "infinite" potential (more on that below) and b) create the first female cosmic superhero—again, something he did not consider Ororo to be.

The 1982 quote: "We had originally envisioned that [Jean/Phoenix] had a power level that was equivalent to Storm's and that the saving the universe was a one-time-only stunt, that it was Jean achieving her full potential for that one moment."

Even if we take this quote as being somehow more accurate or truthful than the quote from three years before, it also clearly establishes two things: Again, 1) Claremont makes no mention of being influenced or inspired by Ororo to create Phoenix; he only states their powers were equivalent after Jean/Phoenix repairs the M'Kraan Crystal and is powered down, which substantiates what he said in the first quote, and 2) it is clear that he considered Phoenix a female cosmic superhero up to the point when she fought Firelord and repaired the M'Kraan Crystal, hence why he says the latter was "a one-time-only stunt, that it was Jean achieving her full potential for that one moment."

Again, nowhere does he state or indicate that "Jean was given Phoenix to be at Ororo's power level."



I think it's easy to misunderstand the trajectory of events based on the seemingly contradictory wording in the two quotes. To be clear, Jean/Phoenix was a cosmic superhero more powerful than Ororo the moment she emerged from Jamaica Bay, and all throughout her fight with Firelord—a cosmic supervillain—and her subsequent repair of the M'Kraan Crystal. After, however, as Claremont noted in 1979, she was powered down to be at Ororo's level.

As for either quote indicating that Jean received a "drastic increase in power from her original baseline," I disagree. The 1968 panel, which predates the creation of Ororo and Claremont becoming the main X-writer, had already established that she had no baseline but rather "infinite mental powers". Mind you, as I've noted before, this wasn't just a human indulging in hyperbole; this was a highly advanced, bio-sensor-equipped A.I. making a calculated observation.

In short, Claremont only delved into and began to explore what had already been established regarding Jean's mental abilities nearly a decade earlier, i.e., that she possesses "infinite mental powers." Respectfully, just like you don't consider Ororo's internal dialogue regarding being able to control the "cosmic storm" a throwaway line, I don't consider an A.I.'s assessment of Jean's mental abilities a throwaway line either. I think it's clear that Jean and Ororo's histories are important to both of us, respectively.



I never ignored this. I clearly stated that she and Corsair acted as anchors to Jean/Phoenix when she was repairing the M'Kraan Crystal, keeping her tethered to the "human plane of reality." However, are we now saying Corsair is a mystical/metaphysical cosmic superhero as well? Because, the last time I checked, he's human, and yet, as noted, he also served as an anchor to Jean/Phoenix when she repaired the M'Kraan Crystal.



I don't dispute this, but to be clear, these feats came after the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas. Moreover, as I stated in my last reply, "This doesn't invalidate Ororo or negate her space weather/cosmic storm feat or role as a groundbreaking female and, more importantly, black female character. It also doesn't invalidate or contradict her later feats and upgrades, especially after the death of Jean/Phoenix."



I've already effectively proven that the bolded claim is not only false but explicitly contradicts what Claremont actually said. In either case, the bottom line is this: Since Phoenix became the first female cosmic superhero (see the Phoenix Saga) and supervillain (see the Dark Phoenix Saga), both Jean and Ororo have displayed increased powers and abilities without any augmentations but, instead, true to both their canonical histories. This thread is filled—wonderfully so—with many of Ororo's feats, proving exactly what she can do.

As for Jean, she has proven multiple times over that she can transcend the compromisation and destruction of her body and live on as an entity of pure thought without the aid of or being bonded to the Phoenix Force, which is in line with her "infinite mental powers," as established in 1968. She has also proven that she can telekinetically reconstruct her body after it has been essentially atomized. It is of no concern to me that she has not been shown doing this during the Krakoan era, just as I know and expect it to be of no concern to you or anyone else in this thread that Ororo hasn't been shown displaying some of her greater feats during this era.

Ultimately, as I said before, we should be celebrating them instead of comparing them to or pitting them against one another. Lastly, if you want to continue this discussion, I suggest we do it via Twitter DMs, so as not to continue to derail this thread. I've noted some fans are growing displeased with this discussion, and I can understand why.

1. so the article you quote was that she was cut down to storms level. in the actual Phoenix saga what did that specefic power level look like? what type of displays did that look like? whatever conclusion you come to and whatever that looks like it still means those displays were on the level at which storm could operate. moving on to the second article, it was stated they wanted something new and that was Phoenix. But the next part is what is important:

"We originally envisioned that she (jean/Phoenix) had a power level equivalent to Storm's and that the saving of the universe was a one-time only stunt, that it was Jean achieving her full potential for that one moment."

There wasn't an interim step between regular Jean and Phoenix Jean. The power she was given was that equivalent to storm and that power was Phoenix.


2. Storm didn't have to be the inspiration for what inspired the creation of Phoenix but again based upon both articles anything that Jean did during that period Claremont explained that as a way to understand her power levels, she was operating at one equivalent to Storm's. That's the only conclusion that can be made... even if you conclude she wasn't cosmic and cut down to storms level, the feats we saw during Phoenix saga displayed by Jean were equivalent to storm. so maybe the issue is that im saying she was given a power to put her a storms power level. however the reason she got it when she got Phoenix she was at Storm's power level.



3. I dont agree with the part about neither characters receiving enhancements. Phoenix was a concept that came well after Jean was created in the 60s. later retcons have made it to where they are supposed to be the same but even now Jean rejected the Phoenix as it was holding her back and it now resides with another host. there can be contradictions as to what the Phoenix is and what she is to Jean depending on who you to to nevertheless, i think credit should be given where its due. Claremont wanted a new Jean, this resulted hmun her displaying a power that was equivalent in power to storm. that power was Phoenix. this was all at least from Claremont.

[BPStorm2]

The story is getting ignored, that doesn't mean they didn't break up. You literally can't read the events of that story as anything other than a very clear wedge being put between the characters. She was basically banished from the kingdom when she was denied free passage. Wakanda didn't become an enemy but the personal relationship between the two characters was ended, you can't not allow someone into your house and continue to consider them a friend, let alone an actual partner. We can assume there was some sort of off-panel discussion in between the events of XOS and Last Annihilation, but XOS was a break up issue to pretty much everyone who read with an open mind.

And since we know the direction of Wakanda-Krakoa relations was meant to look very different under Hickman, it's likely whatever story the whole Skybreaker garbage was meant to set up was dropped. Had the baby happened, the XOS stuff would've further enflamed tensions and Storm and T'Challa would've remained separated for a time (until the unification of both nations, which likely would've culminated with them getting back together.) But it's fairly obvious that even if the BP office didn't want the baby they still wanted Storm so the Skybreaker nonsense Vita tried to push never went any further. She tried it though lol.

You have to remember the writers change and the directions . Hickman said himself it was a mess with those issues it doesn’t make much sense.

[butterflykyss]

The story is getting ignored, that doesn't mean they didn't break up. You literally can't read the events of that story as anything other than a very clear wedge being put between the characters. She was basically banished from the kingdom when she was denied free passage. Wakanda didn't become an enemy but the personal relationship between the two characters was ended, you can't not allow someone into your house and continue to consider them a friend, let alone an actual partner. We can assume there was some sort of off-panel discussion in between the events of XOS and Last Annihilation, but XOS was a break up issue to pretty much everyone who read with an open mind.

And since we know the direction of Wakanda-Krakoa relations was meant to look very different under Hickman, it's likely whatever story the whole Skybreaker garbage was meant to set up was dropped. Had the baby happened, the XOS stuff would've further enflamed tensions and Storm and T'Challa would've remained separated for a time (until the unification of both nations, which likely would've culminated with them getting back together.) But it's fairly obvious that even if the BP office didn't want the baby they still wanted Storm so the Skybreaker nonsense Vita tried to push never went any further. She tried it though lol.

conflict, differences of opinions between couples dont mean that they are done. that said I agree with your points. Hickman plan would indicate they wanted them to be a thing. why vita wrote the story in the manner they did doesn't make sense though but whatever its garbage and its been ignored so its irrelevant.

Ridley sucks at different things so far.

TBH, hard to judge a 6 year story vs 6 issues but I am not optimistic at all at this point.

I will offer you this, remember its just a preview so just hold out until the story drops. you may be pleasantly surprised.

[Reigna]

just wanted to requote thst this was my original point and I never made a claim storm was cosmic

Do you mean this article?
IMG_20220526_191028.jpg
IMG_20220526_191030.jpg

Dont know what you two are going on about but looks fun.