"CHAOS Magic Woman!" Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff Appreciation 2022

[gurkle]

More people in my opinion want to see Wanda morally ambiguous, but does the right thing, kind of like an anti-hero.

Yeah, I prefer her as an unambiguous hero like she mostly is in the comics, but given her origin on a villain team I think a more morally-ambigous take makes sense, especially in the MCU where she and her brother weren't just "good people on the wrong team" like in the comics.

But it's been gone over here many times that her moral ambiguity in WandaVision made sense (she controls people by accident, hesitates to do the right thing because she'll lose everything again, finally does the right thing and gives up her family) and if it had stopped there most of us doom-and-gloomers would be OK with it. But......

[CJStriker]

Yeah, I prefer her as an unambiguous hero like she mostly is in the comics, but given her origin on a villain team I think a more morally-ambigous take makes sense, especially in the MCU where she and her brother weren't just "good people on the wrong team" like in the comics.

But it's been gone over here many times that her moral ambiguity in WandaVision made sense (she controls people by accident, hesitates to do the right thing because she'll lose everything again, finally does the right thing and gives up her family) and if it had stopped there most of us doom-and-gloomers would be OK with it. But......

And that is what has kept her character Going Strong outside of just getting buried by the media or the net or fans, they know that the changes in MoM where so adnormal that they got the heavy critics against them. We should be doom and gloom if the world was coming down hard on Wanda and while I do see the a video or tweet here and there, it still has mostly been fans supporting and wanting more of her and as that link to reddit said before more fans want her on the Heroic side again.

The but should now be looked at the But...End of it cause they have gone as far in the doing bad route with Wanda as they can go, further and the character will controdict now 2 times of established doing the right thing by the end only to go bad again that will then even push off the Fans that liked MoM even. The MCU can't go further with that or put her into droning blanesh.

Ontop of that the MCU has to prove they are not Sexist like their critics, so now they have to go the more postive route otherwise face more backlash for being tonedeaf and not having a plans to fix what they got wrong.

[MaximoffTrash]

Looking at it most people seem to favor a complex and mixed character. Good but also flawed and with more flexible morals which is my stance too.

I mean







Most other heroes would absolutely not be OK with permanently brainwashing someone as a punishment but Wanda isn't one of those people. Agatha tried to steal her power and threatened her children. A line was crossed that shouldn't have been and if somebody does it anyway they need to accept the consequences.

They like the aesthetics over what the character actually does for the most part.
They like what can be perceived as edgy even when the actual writing is sloppy and borderline offensive.

Also what Wanda needs is a hero's framing, the kind almost everyone else gets.

And here is a hot take, people have problem with Monica's line because the narrative only shills Wanda in a half-assed measure unlike most others.
In other narratives, the plotpoint that can threaten the images of our heroes are often dropped and reframed, the same luxury is not there for Wanda.
(BTW, shilling as a form of narrative device exist in nearly in all pop culture media, especially the ones dealing with the heroics.)

[MaximoffTrash]

More people in my opinion want to see Wanda morally ambiguous, but does the right thing, kind of like an anti-hero.

See, the thing is that for a lot of characters, their flaws are treated like the spice of their character. While Wanda's is often treated as the main course. It also doesn't help her framing also has her ended up in a narrative sinkhole where her misdeeds are magnified and blown out of proportion.

[Galerion]

Also, posting this because someone shared this with me and it's too funny to keep to myself:

Hehe that is actually pretty clever and funny to think about

[John Venus]

I feel like so many casual viewers on YT, Tumblr and Twitter are getting carried away with the misunderstood villain thing and missing the subtle nuances of writing.

"What? Thanos wants to kill half the universe? Why doesn't he try X? Killing half the universe is an unnecessary."

Me: Duh, that's why he is the villain. Because he is going to kill people over a bunch of nothing. He is not the 'Rational Titan', he is the 'Mad Titan'.

Same goes for Wanda and Westview. A lot of people nitpick and blow up that moment where Monica tells her that they don't know what she just sacrificed to save the day for. But people miss the fact that Wanda herself shoots down Monica's claim. She knows what she did was wrong but she isn't going to turn herself over to a gvt that has guys like Ross in charge who would exploit her either so she chooses to run instead. People think protagonists are meant to be people we agree with and thinks its bad writing when we don't.

MoM just strips away all the nuance of her character development. The script called for a crazy witch and instead of developing her character organically they chose to twist her character into that mold.

[Galerion]

They like the aesthetics over what the character actually does for the most part.
They like what can be perceived as edgy even when the actual writing is sloppy and borderline offensive.

Also what Wanda needs is a hero's framing, the kind almost everyone else gets.

And here is a hot take, people have problem with Monica's line because the narrative only shills Wanda in a half-assed measure unlike most others.
In other narratives, the plotpoint that can threaten the images of our heroes are often dropped and reframed, the same luxury is not there for Wanda.
(BTW, shilling as a form of narrative device exist in nearly in all pop culture media, especially the ones dealing with the heroics.)

I don't quite agree.

Yes Monicas line is half-assed but not for the reason you are stating. It is because it's simply tone-deaf and doesn't suit the situation. The townspeople are the victims. Putting any kind of blame on them is stupid and Monicas line basically does that because it implies they should have sympathy for Wandas loss. That is simply a writers mistake. Nothing more. If you remove that line the complaints about it disappear and nothing else changes. Monica cannot arrest Wanda even if she wanted to so deescalation is the only course available in that situation. In fact there is nobody with the power to hold Wanda responsible for her actions. Just like nobody can arrest Captain Marvel or Thor or the Hulk. That is an in-universe flaw with the justice system that might be addressed in the future or not. Either way it doesn't really matter in this case because of all of it is obvious and understandable.

• Does anybody have a problem with Magneto in the X-Men movies? No. In fact he is one of the most well-liked and praised elements of that entire movie series. He has shown malicious and villainous behavior throughout the entire series but he has also shown that he will join up with the heroes if the situation demands it. He is a good character that is neither purely white nor black in terms of morality. We know what he went through and why he is the way he is and we know that deep down he does care and loves very much. He just goes about it in a different way to most others.
• Breaking Bad. Walter White is a villain protagonist who we see spiral deeper and deeper into the abyss yet he is also a very well liked character despite his actions.
• Star Wars. Do I have to say anything about Darth Vader at this point? His list of cruelties is so long you could probably decorate an entire room with a list of them. Still this guy is basically loved and worshiped. We get to see how he became the man that he did. We also saw in the end that his love for his own son was so strong that he choose to renounce his ways and sacrifice his own life just to save him.

What is the point of this? You don't need to be portrayed heroic to be liked. There is no link there. What matters is that people can see behind the facade and make them understand the character. What makes them tick? What is their history? Why are they doing the things they do? Why are they making those decisions? What to do they want? What do they like? What do they dislike?

That is currently the case with Wanda and is the rightful reason her popularity is rising. The only thing the MCU does need to avoid is repeating a certain dynamic. Im talking about "does something bad = says sorry and feels bad about it". That will indeed get played out fast if it's repeated too often and the solution to that is simple. Let her make decisions and let her stand by them even if they are questionable. If other characters disagree then well tough luck. That's their problem and not hers. She does what she thinks is right. Period. If that decision turns out to be wrong then let her acknowledge it and if possible make up for it. But don't have her moping around and questioning herself all the time. That is how you portray a strong character who truly fights for what they believe in.

[GenericUsername]

I don't quite agree.

Yes Monicas line is half-assed but not for the reason you are stating. It is because it's simply tone-deaf and doesn't suit the situation. The townspeople are the victims. Putting any kind of blame on them is stupid and Monicas line basically does that because it implies they should have sympathy for Wandas loss. That is simply a writers mistake. Nothing more. If you remove that line the complaints about it disappear and nothing else changes. Monica cannot arrest Wanda even if she wanted to so deescalation is the only course available in that situation. In fact there is nobody with the power to hold Wanda responsible for her actions. Just like nobody can arrest Captain Marvel or Thor or the Hulk. That is an in-universe flaw with the justice system that might be addressed in the future or not. Either way it doesn't really matter in this case because of all of it is obvious and understandable.

• Does anybody have a problem with Magneto in the X-Men movies? No. In fact he is one of the most well-liked and praised elements of that entire movie series. He has shown malicious and villainous behavior throughout the entire series but he has also shown that he will join up with the heroes if the situation demands it. He is a good character that is neither purely white nor black in terms of morality. We know what he went through and why he is the way he is and we know that deep down he does care and loves very much. He just goes about it in a different way to most others.
• Breaking Bad. Walter White is a villain protagonist who we see spiral deeper and deeper into the abyss yet he is also a very well liked character despite his actions.
• Star Wars. Do I have to say anything about Darth Vader at this point? His list of cruelties is so long you could probably decorate an entire room with a list of them. Still this guy is basically loved and worshiped. We get to see how he became the man that he did. We also saw in the end that his love for his own son was so strong that he choose to renounce his ways and sacrifice his own life just to save him.

What is the point of this? You don't need to be portrayed heroic to be liked. There is no link there. What matters is that people can see behind the facade and make them understand the character. What makes them tick? What is their history? Why are they doing the things they do? Why are they making those decisions? What to do they want? What do they like? What do they dislike?

That is currently the case with Wanda and is the rightful reason her popularity is rising. The only thing the MCU does need to avoid is repeating a certain dynamic. Im talking about "does something bad = says sorry and feels bad about it". That will indeed get played out fast if it's repeated too often and the solution to that is simple. Let her make decisions and let her stand by them even if they are questionable. If other characters disagree then well tough luck. That's their problem and not hers. She does what she thinks is right. Period. If that decision turns out to be wrong then let her acknowledge it and if possible make up for it. But don't have her moping around and questioning herself all the time. That is how you portray a strong character who truly fights for what they believe in.

Anti-heroes and villains can be very popular, but I don't think that Wanda is really like a lot of them. A lot of people did feel like she was a hero. She helped saved the world against Thanos, and her show was mostly attributed to her powers going out of control due to grief. Even after MoM, people argue this. Because it was the Darkhold, not Wanda.

And it's very similar with discussions we've had here since AD/HoM with the character. And both those comics events and MoM were a shock to a lot of people for good reason.

Like with all things that are popular, there are various reasons for it and various opinions to be had. It's definitely reflected in conversations all over the net. And you'll get people that love her murdering everyone, love her being gray, people that feel like they went too far... etc.

I think one of the reasons why Wanda resonates is she has had some very real struggles at at time where plenty of people have had the same very real struggles. Loads of people lost others due to the pandemic and depression due to tragedy was very clearly on the forefront of everything. But I don't even think that is like a singular rightful reason why she's become popular.

I don't have a problem with does something wrong and feels bad about it, if she actually makes up for it. I do have a problem with that repeating, and I do have a problem with her losing her agency. And I do have a problem with the heavy imbalance between her good and bad deeds in the MCU, versus how she is in comics. Because to me, it deludes the character. Slaps her with the villain bat and calls it a day. I prefer her as the person that tries to do good and sometimes things go wrong. And the character was never a person that didn't care if she hurt people. That just removes a facet. Because she was never unsympathetic. And I don't think the MCU version is really unsympathetic. She unfortunately is being written by Wanda's worst moments in comics where she was manipulated or possessed. Lost control of her powers and her sense of self. They just have to give the character a chance for Wanda's other facets to come through. And not just be obsessed with her powers.

[Galerion]

Anti-heroes and villains can be very popular, but I don't think that Wanda is really like a lot of them. A lot of people did feel like she was a hero. She helped saved the world against Thanos, and her show was mostly attributed to her powers going out of control due to grief. Even after MoM, people argue this. Because it was the Darkhold, not Wanda.

And it's very similar with discussions we've had here since AD/HoM with the character. And both those comics events and MoM were a shock to a lot of people for good reason.

Like with all things that are popular, there are various reasons for it and various opinions to be had. It's definitely reflected in conversations all over the net. And you'll get people that love her murdering everyone, love her being gray, people that feel like they went too far... etc.

I think one of the reasons why Wanda resonates is she has had some very real struggles at at time where plenty of people have had the same very real struggles. Loads of people lost others due to the pandemic and depression due to tragedy was very clearly on the forefront of everything. But I don't even think that is like a singular rightful reason why she's become popular.

I don't have a problem with does something wrong and feels bad about it, if she actually makes up for it. I do have a problem with that repeating, and I do have a problem with her losing her agency. And I do have a problem with the heavy imbalance between her good and bad deeds in the MCU, versus how she is in comics. Because to me, it deludes the character. Slaps her with the villain bat and calls it a day. I prefer her as the person that tries to do good and sometimes things go wrong. And the character was never a person that didn't care if she hurt people. That just removes a facet. Because she was never unsympathetic. And I don't think the MCU version is really unsympathetic. She unfortunately is being written by Wanda's worst moments in comics where she was manipulated or possessed. Lost control of her powers and her sense of self. They just have to give the character a chance for Wanda's other facets to come through. And not just be obsessed with her powers.

I will address the bold parts specifically here.

• MoM is 100% Wandas fault. I repeat it's 100% Wandas fault. Her actions might not have been entirely her own but the fact that it even got to that point in the first place is totally on her. She knew Dr. Strange and he knew her but she didn't contact him. Instead she choose self-exile and handling a magical artifact that she had no idea about it. That decision was naive and reckless and a lot of pain and misery came from it. That cannot be whisked away and Im sure that will be addressed in the future. The Darkhold cannot be blamed for that. As we all know ignorance is not really an excuse.
• Wandas power does need to be addressed. Just a short while ago she had no idea these powers even existed and then in an emotional moment she literally exploded with power changing the lives of thousands of people in an instant. What if that happens again? What if next time everyone around her just dies? Like in Age of Ultron. To me getting these powers under control certainly looks like a topic that needs to be explored.

[gurkle]

[*]MoM is 100% Wandas fault. I repeat it's 100% Wandas fault. Her actions might not have been entirely her own but the fact that it even got to that point in the first place is totally on her. She knew Dr. Strange and he knew her but she didn't contact him. Instead she choose self-exile and handling a magical artifact that she had no idea about it. That decision was naive and reckless and a lot of pain and misery came from it. That cannot be whisked away and Im sure that will be addressed in the future. The Darkhold cannot be blamed for that. As we all know ignorance is not really an excuse.

This comes back to the thing we often say about Wanda with House of M: I don't blame characters for bad writing.

In the context of "WandaVision," all we saw was Wanda studying the only source on how to control her powers. She was told about it by Agatha, who was not crazy or corrupt. In the show, there was nothing wrong with what she did and the book was not an all-corrupting thing. They just changed that, offscreen, between the end of the show and the start of the movie, and I'm not blaming a character (not just Wanda) for writing that makes no sense and isn't shown onscreen.

And of course we don't know that Wanda chose not to contact Strange, because we never saw them meet before. Again, bad writing to have a character completely change offscreen and never explain how or why it happened except "she read a book."

This brings us back to: I'm happy to say what Wanda did consciously in WandaVision was her fault (not the creation of the Hex itself of course) because the writers made the case that it was in character and showed us why she did it. Blaming her for MoM, no; if the writers won't show us why it happened then it didn't happen, it's just a writer's mistake like "No more mutants."

[GenericUsername]

I will address the bold parts specifically here.

• MoM is 100% Wandas fault. I repeat it's 100% Wandas fault. Her actions might not have been entirely her own but the fact that it even got to that point in the first place is totally on her. She knew Dr. Strange and he knew her but she didn't contact him. Instead she choose self-exile and handling a magical artifact that she had no idea about it. That decision was naive and reckless and a lot of pain and misery came from it. That cannot be whisked away and Im sure that will be addressed in the future. The Darkhold cannot be blamed for that. As we all know ignorance is not really an excuse.
• Wandas power does need to be addressed. Just a short while ago she had no idea these powers even existed and then in an emotional moment she literally exploded with power changing the lives of thousands of people in an instant. What if that happens again? What if next time everyone around her just dies? Like in Age of Ultron. To me getting these powers under control certainly looks like a topic that needs to be explored.

Reading the book is her fault. Everything after that is because of it's influence. She was weak, curious and desperate. But there was nothing about her true self that ever indicated she'd go on a killing spree.

They do need to address her powers and her learning to control them. They say she learned a lot about her powers but don't go into detail. So what we are left with is this feeling more of villain monologue than an actual truth.

[GenericUsername]

This comes back to the thing we often say about Wanda with House of M: I don't blame characters for bad writing.

In the context of "WandaVision," all we saw was Wanda studying the only source on how to control her powers. She was told about it by Agatha, who was not crazy or corrupt. In the show, there was nothing wrong with what she did and the book was not an all-corrupting thing. They just changed that, offscreen, between the end of the show and the start of the movie, and I'm not blaming a character (not just Wanda) for writing that makes no sense and isn't shown onscreen.

And of course we don't know that Wanda chose not to contact Strange, because we never saw them meet before. Again, bad writing to have a character completely change offscreen and never explain how or why it happened except "she read a book."

This brings us back to: I'm happy to say what Wanda did consciously in WandaVision was her fault (not the creation of the Hex itself of course) because the writers made the case that it was in character and showed us why she did it. Blaming her for MoM, no; if the writers won't show us why it happened then it didn't happen, it's just a writer's mistake like "No more mutants."

This is really true and one of many things that don't make sense about the movie. Wanda and Strange never really met before this movie. They didn't know each other and he is not the SS of this world. Furthermore she'd not really know who the SS was, because she was blipped. And didn't know Wong either before this.

And the only way we even knew that Wong was SS was a joke in Spider-man.

[MaximoffTrash]

I don't quite agree.

Yes Monicas line is half-assed but not for the reason you are stating. It is because it's simply tone-deaf and doesn't suit the situation. The townspeople are the victims. Putting any kind of blame on them is stupid and Monicas line basically does that because it implies they should have sympathy for Wandas loss. That is simply a writers mistake. Nothing more. If you remove that line the complaints about it disappear and nothing else changes. Monica cannot arrest Wanda even if she wanted to so deescalation is the only course available in that situation. In fact there is nobody with the power to hold Wanda responsible for her actions. Just like nobody can arrest Captain Marvel or Thor or the Hulk. That is an in-universe flaw with the justice system that might be addressed in the future or not. Either way it doesn't really matter in this case because of all of it is obvious and understandable.

• Does anybody have a problem with Magneto in the X-Men movies? No. In fact he is one of the most well-liked and praised elements of that entire movie series. He has shown malicious and villainous behavior throughout the entire series but he has also shown that he will join up with the heroes if the situation demands it. He is a good character that is neither purely white nor black in terms of morality. We know what he went through and why he is the way he is and we know that deep down he does care and loves very much. He just goes about it in a different way to most others.
• Breaking Bad. Walter White is a villain protagonist who we see spiral deeper and deeper into the abyss yet he is also a very well liked character despite his actions.
• Star Wars. Do I have to say anything about Darth Vader at this point? His list of cruelties is so long you could probably decorate an entire room with a list of them. Still this guy is basically loved and worshiped. We get to see how he became the man that he did. We also saw in the end that his love for his own son was so strong that he choose to renounce his ways and sacrifice his own life just to save him.

What is the point of this? You don't need to be portrayed heroic to be liked. There is no link there. What matters is that people can see behind the facade and make them understand the character. What makes them tick? What is their history? Why are they doing the things they do? Why are they making those decisions? What to do they want? What do they like? What do they dislike?

That is currently the case with Wanda and is the rightful reason her popularity is rising. The only thing the MCU does need to avoid is repeating a certain dynamic. Im talking about "does something bad = says sorry and feels bad about it". That will indeed get played out fast if it's repeated too often and the solution to that is simple. Let her make decisions and let her stand by them even if they are questionable. If other characters disagree then well tough luck. That's their problem and not hers. She does what she thinks is right. Period. If that decision turns out to be wrong then let her acknowledge it and if possible make up for it. But don't have her moping around and questioning herself all the time. That is how you portray a strong character who truly fights for what they believe in.

You are arguing against air when most of my points are literally about narrative framing which is done by the creators. My point about Monica is not blaming Monica but the whole scenario poorly thought out and Wanda not given the average golden girl treatme

Also do you know why Magneto survives this fucking long narrative wise? Because the story shills him fucking hard, hardly anyone mentions his borderline omnicide behavior in Apocalypse movie because unlike Wanda the creators made sure his atrocities don't haunt the audience mind for too long.
The Magneto argument is always going to be freaking stupid because people for some reason are naive enough to believe Wanda of all characters can afford his narrative without all his narrative favors, and I will say it's delusional to think she can magically get that kind of treatment.

[MaximoffTrash]

I will address the bold parts specifically here.

• MoM is 100% Wandas fault. I repeat it's 100% Wandas fault. Her actions might not have been entirely her own but the fact that it even got to that point in the first place is totally on her. She knew Dr. Strange and he knew her but she didn't contact him. Instead she choose self-exile and handling a magical artifact that she had no idea about it. That decision was naive and reckless and a lot of pain and misery came from it. That cannot be whisked away and Im sure that will be addressed in the future. The Darkhold cannot be blamed for that. As we all know ignorance is not really an excuse.
• Wandas power does need to be addressed. Just a short while ago she had no idea these powers even existed and then in an emotional moment she literally exploded with power changing the lives of thousands of people in an instant. What if that happens again? What if next time everyone around her just dies? Like in Age of Ultron. To me getting these powers under control certainly looks like a topic that needs to be explored.

Yes, and the whole storyline sucks for it, wanna add anything more?
I don't want them to blame Darkhold, I want this it fucking ignored lol.
And seriously, you seem to be aruging on different gournd from some of us here.
The argument is, this story sucks and shouldn't happen in the first place, and since it happens, better to act fast to salvage her after this bloody disaster.

[MaximoffTrash]

This is really true and one of many things that don't make sense about the movie. Wanda and Strange never really met before this movie. They didn't know each other and he is not the SS of this world. Furthermore she'd not really know who the SS was, because she was blipped. And didn't know Wong either before this.

And the only way we even knew that Wong was SS was a joke in Spider-man.

They act like Wanda is some kind of witchcraft expert, which kinda suggest Witchcraft is just another normal branch of magic.
But then their tone when calling Wanda a witch sounds like what a old timey Catholic monk would say.

And of course they just let you assume shit, Stephen and Mordo had off-screen rivalry somehow and Stephen for some reason doesn't know about The Book of Vishanti being real, and Wong is suddenly the loremaster of all mystical stuff because he is the SS.(Seriously, that is the reasoning used how Wong know about Wundagore.)