"CHAOS Magic Woman!" Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff Appreciation 2022

[WallStreeter]

Agatha is not out of control at all. She is precise. Her brain is not replaced. It doesn't do that. Even Liz says Wanda has control over things, she just feels entitled. Wanda did deal with loss. That was what the stages of grief were about. The Darkhold again, does not make people forget things. It makes them power hungry.

I agree. Both knew what they were doing and both were calculating. Neither was hysterical. And it was obvious Wanda felt entitled to the happiness she saw other Wandas have.

[GenericUsername]

What you consider plot holes may perfect sense to people who like the movie. While you are entitled to hate the movie, understand and respect others are entitled to like it for whatever reason and no one has to justify their preference to anyone. Whether someone loves it or hates it, it’s entirely on them.

When people have to create fanon like her brain was replaced that is not even in the movie to stretch things to fit, it still has those plot holes. They just accept them in their enjoyment of the film. I don't have a problem with people enjoying the film. But it does have flaws.

[gurkle]

I agree. Both knew what they were doing and both were calculating. Neither was hysterical. And it was obvious Wanda felt entitled to the happiness she saw other Wandas have.

Well, that at least would be a story, though it would make Wanda permanently unusable. But they couldn't even make that work, because she snaps out of it when her variant's kids are scared of her, when that doesn't make sense if she understood what she was doing all along. (And the Wanda who we've seen throughout the movie would not just give up when they were scared of her. She'd just rationalize it like she rationalized everything else, or steal America's powers to find a version of her kids who weren't scared.) So it's not even a good villain turn, because they didn't have the courage to play it like she was actually in control; they played it like possession even though it wasn't supposed to be.

In the end, the Wanda we knew would never do anything she did in this movie, Darkhold or no Darkhold, so just like "no more mutants" it can only be dismissed as a writer's mistake or retconned as possession. Wanda was willing to sacrifice her happiness repeatedly, she would not feel entitled to kill for children she willingly gave up, and she definitely wouldn't pin all her happiness on being a mother, to the point of forgetting about Vision or Pietro.

[WallStreeter]

When people have to create fanon like her brain was replaced that is not even in the movie to stretch things to fit, it still has those plot holes. They just accept them in their enjoyment of the film. I don't have a problem with people enjoying the film. But it does have flaws.

Agreed. Perhaps the plot could have been better had the director and writer watched WandaVision. Then they could have explicitly shown the Darkhold change Wanda, as opposed to really having Wanda turn straight up evil. I definitely see your point.

[WallStreeter]

Well, that at least would be a story, though it would make Wanda permanently unusable. But they couldn't even make that work, because she snaps out of it when her variant's kids are scared of her, when that doesn't make sense if she understood what she was doing all along. (And the Wanda who we've seen throughout the movie would not just give up when they were scared of her. She'd just rationalize it like she rationalized everything else, or steal America's powers to find a version of her kids who weren't scared.) So it's not even a good villain turn, because they didn't have the courage to play it like she was actually in control; they played it like possession even though it wasn't supposed to be.

I think she snapped out of it because she got exposed to her variants kids. At that point, the only way she could make things over is to take over their minds and mind control. And that would be pure evil.

So she has to drop the plan.

[GenericUsername]

Agreed. Perhaps the plot could have been better had the director and writer watched WandaVision. Then they could have explicitly shown the Darkhold change Wanda, as opposed to really having Wanda turn straight up evil. I definitely see your point.

Yeah definitely. And possibly things being moved around in shooting because of covid impacted a lot of this, but it is what it is.

[gurkle]

I think she snapped out of it because she got exposed to her variants kids. At that point, the only way she could make things over is to take over their minds and mind control. And that would be pure evil.

So she has to drop the plan.

I mean, I don't think the psycho killer Wanda we've seen in this movie would hesitate. Why would she? Everything she does is for her children's own good. The fact that they're scared of her would not change that.

They just had her become obsessed with having kids for no reason and turn good again for no reason; there's no actual motivation for anything she does except that the movie needs to start and end.

Yeah definitely. And possibly things being moved around in shooting because of covid impacted a lot of this, but it is what it is.

From what Waldron has said, the COVID delay gave him and Raimi to rewrite the script from scratch, and they changed it from Wanda helping Strange at first and gradually turning evil, to making the whole movie about Strange and Chavez running from evil Wanda. (That explains why Elizabeth Olsen didn't know she was the main villain until WandaVision was almost finished). That wouldn't have pleased me either, but it would definitely have been a more credible story. They just gave up on it making sense.

[Cruelrain]

Apparently WandaVision was just filming when they started working on the Movie script but they could have connected the movie more with the WandaVision script in that case lol

[inisideguy]

OK, but did we see that in the movie? She didn't even mention she had a brother, she didn't mention why she's not looking for Vision, they didn't explain why the Darkhold works differently on her than Agatha, etc., etc.

They could easily have shown what you're saying, but they didn't. That's not because they don't want to spell it out for us, it's because they just decided it would be more shocking to have her suddenly be evil when the movie starts.

This is why the writer in interviews gives these explanations for why Wanda cares about the kids but not Vision, or talks about the Darkhold whispering in her ear and changing her. It was his job to show these things in the movie. If it happened offscreen it didn't happen.

I watched Wanda Vision and the Movie. And its spelled out for me. We are obviously reading different languages. We know for AOU she lost her brother, we know since Wanda Vision, she lost her parents. Then she loses her Husband. This lady has had tons of tragedy. She literally killed her husband. Then she kidnapps a town puts them under mind control creates a family and at the end walks away to isolate herself. Her entire life is one terrible thing after another. The Darkhold takes advantage of all that. Combined with her power its a recipe for disaster. Thats how I see it. This lady was recruited by Hydra lord knows what she did with them as well. If you look at the complete picture its there at least for me.

[GenericUsername]

I watched Wanda Vision and the Movie. And its spelled out for me. We are obviously reading different languages. We know for AOU she lost her brother, we know since Wanda Vision, she lost her parents. Then she loses her Husband. This lady has had tons of tragedy. She literally killed her husband. Then she kidnapps a town puts them under mind control creates a family and at the end walks away to isolate herself. Her entire life is one terrible thing after another. The Darkhold takes advantage of all that. Combined with her power its a recipe for disaster. Thats how I see it. This lady was recruited by Hydra lord knows what she did with them as well. If you look at the complete picture its there at least for me.

The idea that Wanda was some serial killer in waiting, you just need to read between the lines is hilarious considering none of that is on screen. Who knows what she did, here's some speculation. No doubt the Darkhold corrupts, but so far in the MCU not to the point to completely change direction from searching for her sons, to kidnapping someone else's.

[gurkle]

I watched Wanda Vision and the Movie. And its spelled out for me. We are obviously reading different languages. We know for AOU she lost her brother, we know since Wanda Vision, she lost her parents. Then she loses her Husband. This lady has had tons of tragedy. She literally killed her husband. Then she kidnapps a town puts them under mind control creates a family and at the end walks away to isolate herself. Her entire life is one terrible thing after another. The Darkhold takes advantage of all that. Combined with her power its a recipe for disaster. Thats how I see it. This lady was recruited by Hydra lord knows what she did with them as well. If you look at the complete picture its there at least for me.

She willingly gave up the family she created when she found out they could only survive by torturing that town. Then in the movie, she's willing to kill to get copies of the children she willingly gave up to stop hurting people.

The Darkhold was not portrayed in WandaVision as something that corrupts the user to that extent, or Agatha would have been crazy and irrational too. The movie contradicts that.

As far as we knew in watching the show, Wanda realized that her trauma did not give her the right to hurt other people, and that doing the right thing was more important than having a family. Then she isolated herself to learn more about her newfound powers, from a book that she had been told she needed to read to understand her powers.

Maybe the Agatha show will retcon this and explain why the Darkhold worked differently on Agatha, or why Agatha didn't warn Wanda about the corrupting effect of the book. But nothing in the show suggests that Wanda was going to do what she did here, and the thing it did suggest -- that she heard her kids calling to her for help -- was ignored in the movie.

Wanda is a flawed person who would still rather let her children die than willingly hurt other people. The movie simply got her wrong and used the Darkhold as a lazy excuse for not showing why she changed.

Apparently WandaVision was just filming when they started working on the Movie script but they could have connected the movie more with the WandaVision script in that case lol

Remember Raimi said this story was almost finished before they even told him about WandaVision. And they never made him watch the whole show.

Continuity is basically fake and Feige just doesn't care if one project matches up with another. And that doesn't actually bother me. Every team needs to tell its own story.

My problem with MoM isn't even that it contradicts WandaVision, I just have a problem when people claim it was all set up in WandaVision, which is obviously not true -- but they have to make that claim because there is no actual setup in the movie.

[inisideguy]

The idea that Wanda was some serial killer in waiting, you just need to read between the lines is hilarious considering none of that is on screen. Who knows what she did, here's some speculation. No doubt the Darkhold corrupts, but so far in the MCU not to the point to completely change direction from searching for her sons, to kidnapping someone else's.

Thats isnt the idea at all. What it shows as with the other two Dr Stranges is it can corrupt you to do insane things. The first Doctor Strange it corrupted as he as attempting to defeat Thanos. He at the end sees all of it before he is killed. The 2nd Dr Strange it corrupted to such a degree that he destroyed the entire earth possibly his entire universe.

[inisideguy]

She willingly gave up the family she created when she found out they could only survive by torturing that town. Then in the movie, she's willing to kill to get copies of the children she willingly gave up to stop hurting people.

The Darkhold was not portrayed in WandaVision as something that corrupts the user to that extent, or Agatha would have been crazy and irrational too. The movie contradicts that.

As far as we knew in watching the show, Wanda realized that her trauma did not give her the right to hurt other people, and that doing the right thing was more important than having a family. Then she isolated herself to learn more about her newfound powers, from a book that she had been told she needed to read to understand her powers.

Maybe the Agatha show will retcon this and explain why the Darkhold worked differently on Agatha, or why Agatha didn't warn Wanda about the corrupting effect of the book. But nothing in the show suggests that Wanda was going to do what she did here, and the thing it did suggest -- that she heard her kids calling to her for help -- was ignored in the movie.

Wanda is a flawed person who would still rather let her children die than willingly hurt other people. The movie simply got her wrong and used the Darkhold as a lazy excuse for not showing why she changed.

Again you are assuming the Darkhold affects everyone the exact same ways regardless of their circumstances. I used the example of the Dark Side of the Force and it applies here as well.

[gurkle]

Again you are assuming the Darkhold affects everyone the exact same ways regardless of their circumstances. I used the example of the Dark Side of the Force and it applies here as well.

Then they should have explained it, that's all. They didn't. They just said "the Darkhold corrupts" and didn't explain why it affected Wanda in this specific way.

So what we saw was that Wanda is suddenly obsessed with having children above everything else in the world, and doesn't even care if she gets back with Vision. Why? They don't care.

[inisideguy]

Then they should have explained it, that's all. They didn't. They just said "the Darkhold corrupts" and didn't explain why it affected Wanda in this specific way.

So what we saw was that Wanda is suddenly obsessed with having children above everything else in the world, and doesn't even care if she gets back with Vision. Why? They don't care.

They don't spell out everything about the Dark side of the force either in 40 years of Star Wars. You guys want exact explanations for Magic in a Fictional world.