"CHAOS Magic Woman!" Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff Appreciation 2022

[Albert1981]

I guess costs in magic CAN make people become "evil", but I don't think it HAS to. Look at Stephen Strange. The cost for him to use his magic in the comics was to endure an unbelievably shitty diet. That cost didn't turn him into a villain. It just made him mad. And it was funny as hell. To me, I think it is hard to write magic consistently. Lots of readers think it's lame that mystical characters can use "magic" to solve problems (technology has similar issues but at least stories involving "technology" have SOME scientific foundation to them for the most part). I feel the same way with characters using "time travel" and "alternate universes" to solve problems (although what the MCU is doing is actually basing their ideas on quantum physics). If a person from the future went back to change the past, that future would no longer exist so how the hell could that person go back into the past from that future in the first place? So Disney did the whole branching timelines thing to get around the grandfather paradox "problem". I think that's a HUGE reason why folks prefer Infinity War over Endgame. The boring exposition absolutely bogged down the latter movie and confused audiences with its "scientific mumbo-jumbo." Then Marvel Studios doubled down on the exposition in Loki. And apparently in Loki 2 and Ant-Man 3 they're gonna TRIPLE DOWN on it. For reasons I don't entirely understand, the MCU's three main magical characters (Loki, Strange and Wanda) are deeply involved in these stories. Multiversal stories. Where we get to see actors and actresses play uninteresting and clownish versions of themselves...Repeatedly. And it's diminishing MCU audiences in DROVES. But at least they're trying to maintain some rules in this multiversal nonsense (although I think Disney will give up on this effort once they release MCU movie 96 in 2025).

Magic absolutely should have rules in the MCU, characters like Loki, Strange and Wanda either become walking, talking deus ex machines or are regularly "nerfed" through the "Worf Effect". I think magical stories CAN have their protagonists and antagonists possess an innate gift or affinity for "sorcery" or "witchcraft", but it's FAR more interesting (again to me) if they go through an arduous schooling process. I like it when magic use is dependent on acquired knowledge, and it is even more interesting when magic is "difficult to exploit, and a privilege to learn."

I believe audiences can definitely appreciate it if "magic is balanced in that there must be an equilibrium in regards to the laws of nature (as in the Earthsea books). Defying death or bringing a person back from the dead is unnatural and often disastrous, requiring a skilled mage to even attempt such spells. Wizards can also overexert themselves or spend all of their magic at once, rendering them powerless afterwards, so it is not often that mages risk the loss of their powers by using them unnecessarily or putting all of their energy into a single spell." Those are "costs" to me. But nobody turns into "villains" because of them. Characters make mistakes through their own hubris and then try to fix them. Maybe that stuff can't be done in the comic books, but I would reckon it might work in the MCU. Like in the extremely successful Harry Potter franchise. Wanda getting tired and depressed after expanding the Hex in WandaVision didn't turn her into an "evildoer". It just made her really fragile, relatable, vulnerable and human. Costs are good in fantasy stories. They bring an emotional element to them. See where I'm coming from?

If rules aren't important in magic, then why did WandaVision's writers expend so much time and energy trying to give Wanda her "rune magic" in the first place? That series devoted two ENTIRE episodes to explaining and showing how it worked. Lots of WandaVision fans who watched that show were pleasantly surprised at how Wanda bested Agatha at the VERY last second by using "runes" to win the "final boss battle." The runes were also very visually entertaining as well. In fact, you could even say Wanda's runes literally transformed her into the Scarlet Witch. And yet somehow she didn't use them in her very next MCU appearance? Or even try to? Then what's the point of her learning rune magic in the first place? They worked for her quite nicely in the recent past, but for "reasons" she didn't think they would work in similar situations later on? If there are no rules in fantasy stories, magic users shouldn't really cast spells all that often in my opinion. Make the magic unpredictable and dangerous. Don't have the magic users in the MCU pull spells out of their asses to save the day with no build-up. If Wanda killed, injured or tortured other magic users in Strange 2, she actually didn't have to do ANY of those things if you really think about it. She just had to put up some runes and it's game over for her opponents. Wanda wins and nobody gets so much as a fucking nosebleed. As I said before, I don't blame the creators of the MoM for forgetting about Wanda's rune magic. I think they're being overworked. That causes continuity problems in the MCU. Just like in the comics. Hopefully Feige and company can right the ship. Because once the MCU becomes more like the comic books upon which they are based, things will only go downhill from there.

[GenericUsername]

I guess costs in magic CAN make people become "evil", but I don't think it HAS to. Look at Stephen Strange. The cost for him to use his magic in the comics was to endure an unbelievably shitty diet. That cost didn't turn him into a villain.

That is one run and not the way they go about things in the movies. And even runs where it sets up that even darker magic isn't evil, another writer comes by and takes away the nuance.

The problem is, they aren't good at fleshing out magic.

[MaximoffTrash]

It really is Groundhog Day for longtime Wanda fans. After years of trying to explain that just because Bendis had her do something in House of M doesn't mean it's in character, we're right back to arguing the same thing about this movie.

Maybe it's a little more obvious here than it was in the House of M days, because a lot more people watched Wanda's show than read her pre-2004 comics, and most of them know something is wrong with her portrayal. Even Grace Randolph, who thought the idea of villain Wanda sounded cool, was negative about the movie because it ignored everything about WandaVision and turned her into a completely different person offscreen.

But it's just really tiring to have this character who goes back and forth between good writing and terrible writing, so we keep having to explain that the good writing "counts" and the bad writing does not (because characters can't be judged by their worst, most out-of-character stories). If she just never got written well then we could give up on her, but she was written well just last year.

The worst part is that getting out of the situation again requires time and effort, so really Wanda barely gets to be in-character and has actual development but instead got her time wasted by this back and forth. Seriously, if DS2 is just a regular teamup, then she can transition more smoothly into her own solo or something and do stories about Chhton/Darkhold.
But MoM set her up to be missing and even if she returns, she is up for another tiring "redemption arc".

Hopefully she gets the "what happened before? Don't care" treatment, pretty much like how MoM ignores WV. I just don't care to see The Children's Crusade where her role is being amnesiac and moping around(and I don't even care about her relationship with the kids, it's already tainted, if the kids are nothing but source of madness/excuses for bad writing, then they should be separated, I had this sentiment about the Magnus family, now it extends to the kids as well lol), fucking hell, seeing Wanda acting like a functional person is already a luxury.
While I hope for a closed/self-contained storyline to send her off, Marvel will likely just milk her for even more cheap shock value and easy profit.

[Albert1981]

That is one run and not the way they go about things in the movies. And even runs where it sets up that even darker magic isn't evil, another writer comes by and takes away the nuance.

The problem is, they aren't good at fleshing out magic.

For ME, I think it's hard to flesh out magic because it has no foundation in reality. It's complete made-up. I think that's why science fiction gets more respect than fantasy (the former has technobabble that gives the "science" in fiction some credibility). Magic doesn't really have that. I think the MCU needs more scenes showing how Strange, Loki and Wanda learn their powers and spells. Magic users in the MCU are summoning things left and right (with no training by the way) for whatever the plot requires. At least in Strange 1 and WandaVision they TRIED to show Stephen and Wanda learning how to use their powers. That's why I appreciate Aaron being creative with the "costs" of magic:

https://www.cbr.com/doctor-strange-g...iet-explained/

Be honest, Strange eating concoctions tasting like "leprosy" in order to use his magic is REALLY original and FUNNY. I don't know why Strange fans on these forums can't stand Aaron's work. I think it's hilarious. At least he was TRYING to make magic more "relatable" in the comics.

I agree with you that ALL MCU creative teams should watch the works upon which their own work is based. Disney is asking fans to put in time and money to watch their movies and shows. I hope they understand what a big commitment that is. In MY opinion, I don't think Cumberbatch and Olsen were happy working on MoM. I think they like the money and the job security, but I don't believe it was a fulfilling experience for them. Olsen stated that she "misses" Bettany so much and "loves" Hahn so much. Lizzie mentioned that "Wanda was really alone in the MoM and she felt it as an actor." Wanda without Vision and Agatha is just not the same to me. Whenever Wanda was on-screen with Vision and Harkness in WandaVision, it was so great. I'm hoping her chemistry with Cumberbatch wasn't THAT bad. I HATE that Wanda co-starred in a really polarizing movie. It definitely sounds the MoM disillusioned Olsen quite a bit, sadly. Or maybe she's just making negative noises in order to pressure Disney to extend her contract? Whatever the case, it appears the MoM wasn't really about magic. Apparently it wasn't even about multiverses. I have to say if the MCU keeps heading in its current direction, I would be okay with Wanda and Vision leaving the franchise before things get really bad. Whatever your thoughts on WandaVision, that was a VERY accessible show. You didn't have to be a superhero fan to enjoy it at all. If you like catchy music and sitcoms, that series would have been for you. I remember reading somewhere about a lady who REALLY got into WandaVision (and she had not watched any MCU content previously), because she was totally invested in Wanda's family during that series. It CLEARLY meant something to her. And apparently the MCU has now turned it into a fucking joke like in the comics? I can't imagine what that woman is thinking now. I almost don't wanna watch it on Disney Plus. I don't know why Marvel Studios wants to keep pandering to hardcore fans at the expense of general audiences. They're literally relying on comic book "boner moments" to entice people to come see their films and shows now. Seeing Marvel characters (actors/actresses) from other studios appear in MCU movies won't impress "casuals". A lot of them won't even know who those characters are! I don't understand this approach at all. I think they're losing audiences and I'm actually SHOCKED that they might actually lose Elizabeth Olsen too. My enthusiasm for the MCU diminished GREATLY last summer after watching Loki and Black Widow and I lost almost complete interest in it after watching Hawkeye and the Eternals. How many characters is the MCU gonna introduce in the next couple of years? I literally don't remember the name of a single Eternal. I know folks on this thread want Wanda to interact with a bunch of new Marvel characters, but I'd rather her hang out with the people she knows. I imagine the Wanda stans must be pretty divided right now.

[MaximoffTrash]

I kinda thought of a sequel/followup idea that can kinda mock Waldron and have a decent story at the same time.
1.Basically the idea is to have a show featuring Victoria Montesi and Darkhold Redeemers solving mysterious cases caused by newly emerging Darkhold pages.
2.The crime scenes again purposefully looks like generic horror or slasher movies.
3.The villain of this arc would be a failed screenwriter who desperately want to prove himself, dude is angry the industry cannot see his brilliance and writing skills.(cough, he is actually bad)
4.Then one day Chthon/Darkhold Dwarf appeared to him and made him an offer. He will be granted the power of the author over reality itself. So here we have a medicore-to-bad writer who exploit the reality warping power granted to him.
5.And he went on a writing spree and send out his scripts as mails to be randomly read.(It will only take effect after mortals read them.)Which caused chaos and mindboggling weird cases across the globe.

The basic idea is that Chthon's Earthly mananger is a shitty screenwriter.(Cast generic white dude with a moustache)
Also explain why Wanda behave the way she is in MoM lol.

Morgan Le Fay would also be a very interesting villain since she is actually a careful Darkhold reader.
She literally said nahhhh when she realized she cannot control Chthon. She stopped the summoning not because she cared about the world or anything, more like she wouldn't settle for being a servant for a greater power, she want to be that greater power.4

A plot where Le Fay re-purposed her original plan after discovering Wanda's existence would be cool. Since Wanda's status as Chthon's avatar could make that plan work. Wanda would get stuck between Chthon and Morgan's ambitions, and she will have to somehow dupe both in order to protect Earth or something.

[CJStriker]

A possible Dawning of Symbolic Justice?!

[GenericUsername]

For ME, I think it's hard to flesh out magic because it has no foundation in reality. It's complete made-up.

That's what writers are paid for. To come up with stuff though. It's fiction. Books for decades have fleshed out magic pretty well. There is no excuse for it really. If a writer is best only at non-fiction, they need to stick with that. Leave fiction up to writers with an imagination.

I think the MCU needs more scenes showing how Strange, Loki and Wanda learn their powers and spells. Magic users in the MCU are summoning things left and right (with no training by the way) for whatever the plot requires. At least in Strange 1 and WandaVision they TRIED to show Stephen and Wanda learning how to use their powers. That's why I appreciate Aaron being creative with the "costs" of magic:

Cost of magic doesn't need to exist to flesh out magic. And that discussion is cyclical so I'm not gonna say much more about it.

https://www.cbr.com/doctor-strange-g...iet-explained/

Be honest, Strange eating concoctions tasting like "leprosy" in order to use his magic is REALLY original and FUNNY. I don't know why Strange fans on these forums can't stand Aaron's work. I think it's hilarious. At least he was TRYING to make magic more "relatable" in the comics.

I didn't hate Aaron's run, but different forms of magic exist and don't fall under Aaron's depiction.

I agree with you that ALL MCU creative teams should watch the works upon which their own work is based. Disney is asking fans to put in time and money to watch their movies and shows. I hope they understand what a big commitment that is. In MY opinion, I don't think Cumberbatch and Olsen were happy working on MoM. I think they like the money and the job security, but I don't believe it was a fulfilling experience for them. Olsen stated that she "misses" Bettany so much and "loves" Hahn so much. Lizzie mentioned that "Wanda was really alone in the MoM and she felt it as an actor." Wanda without Vision and Agatha is just not the same to me. Whenever Wanda was on-screen with Vision and Harkness in WandaVision, it was so great. I'm hoping her chemistry with Cumberbatch wasn't THAT bad. I HATE that Wanda co-starred in a really polarizing movie. It definitely sounds the MoM disillusioned Olsen quite a bit, sadly. Or maybe she's just making negative noises in order to pressure Disney to extend her contract? Whatever the case, it appears the MoM wasn't really about magic. Apparently it wasn't even about multiverses. I have to say if the MCU keeps heading in its current direction, I would be okay with Wanda and Vision leaving the franchise before things get really bad. Whatever your thoughts on WandaVision, that was a VERY accessible show. You didn't have to be a superhero fan to enjoy it at all. If you like catchy music and sitcoms, that series would have been for you. I remember reading somewhere about a lady who REALLY got into WandaVision (and she had not watched any MCU content previously), because she was totally invested in Wanda's family during that series. It CLEARLY meant something to her. And apparently the MCU has now turned it into a fucking joke like in the comics? I can't imagine what that woman is thinking now. I almost don't wanna watch it on Disney Plus. I don't know why Marvel Studios wants to keep pandering to hardcore fans at the expense of general audiences. They're literally relying on comic book "boner moments" to entice people to come see their films and shows now. Seeing Marvel characters (actors/actresses) from other studios appear in MCU movies won't impress "casuals". A lot of them won't even know who those characters are! I don't understand this approach at all. I think they're losing audiences and I'm actually SHOCKED that they might actually lose Elizabeth Olsen too. My enthusiasm for the MCU diminished GREATLY last summer after watching Loki and Black Widow and I lost almost complete interest in it after watching Hawkeye and the Eternals. How many characters is the MCU gonna introduce in the next couple of years? I literally don't remember the name of a single Eternal. I know folks on this thread want Wanda to interact with a bunch of new Marvel characters, but I'd rather her hang out with the people she knows. I imagine the Wanda stans must be pretty divided right now.

The biggest issue is for ITMoM they only needed to really watch WandaVision. There wasn't much of Wanda in the other stuff. It's just 6 hours of their time. 3 hours per day on a weekend. Very doable. I don't understand the approach either. But I think they are getting to the point in movies that they got in comics where it was all big events and not really the world building that made the universe popular.

[MaximoffTrash]

A possible Dawning of Symbolic Justice?!

Hopefully it gets what it deserves lol.

[Gnostic]

Going through a breakdown over losing her family, then realizing what she did wrong and ending what she was doing wrong.

A corruption arc is necessarily a breakdown. It could have been about Chthon seducing her with power or something.

[Cruelrain]

A possible Dawning of Symbolic Justice?!

I fine with it getting Mixed Reviews and doing bad at the box office

At least we know most critics/people say lizzie carried the wanda role even if the writing was terrible, would have been a mess if that was bad too.

[Galerion]

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudi...m_source=share

[MaximoffTrash]

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudi...m_source=share

The effects look cool, wish the movie hadn't destroyed my passion for the Darkhold and its lore though.

[CJStriker]

The effects look cool, wish the movie hadn't destroyed my passion for the Darkhold and its lore though.

Don’t let a 1 divisive and what sounds like Lazy movie destroy your passion for a part of lore you love. Heck, fans all over are scrambling for lore and where is the true, pure lore?! In the comics and that is where it’s base is, others just “Borrowed” it.

Heck, it is up to Fans like You to educate the masses on the real Darkhold just like it is to for us to educate the masses on Wanda character and lore.

You must be the Darkhold Senpai, Please Teach us MaximoffTrash Senpai!

[CJStriker]

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudi...m_source=share

Indeed Galerion That is pretty Awesomely Done Cosplay, the passion that fans put into these are truly remarkable! Like allot the effects and the look of the Magic of The Headdress and the look and magic of the Darkhold.

[Pulp Fiction]

I hope mom doesn’t have long term negative affect on Wanda. She really can’t catch a break