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  1. #3721
    ᱬ Master Of Chaos ᱬ Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Shouldn't her being fused with Darkhold count as resistance? I mean it didn't drive her crazy or she just needs to read it to that to happen

  2. #3722
    Chaos bringer GenericUsername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelrain View Post
    Shouldn't her being fused with Darkhold count as resistance? I mean it didn't drive her crazy or she just needs to read it to that to happen
    We have to see what they do after Darkhold Omega. Because they wrote that she's free and she'll return, but she hasn't really returned yet. And it could be like Damnation where she was teased for a role on the Midnight Sons, but then writers drop it later.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  3. #3723
    Chaos bringer GenericUsername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Apart from everything else that didn't make sense about the script, the effect the Darkhold has on Wanda is really unclear. Sometimes they act like it's her own choice, sometimes they act like "Wanda" and "The Scarlet Witch" are different people... and then of course she suddenly snaps out of it when the kids are afraid of her, which makes no sense even in this script, because why would that stop her? She's been so crazy and evil she would just rationalize it that the kids will stop being afraid once they realize she's right. Olsen and Raimi, probably deliberately, played it like Wanda was a different person for most of the movie and turned back into her old self at the last minute, but why? No one knows or cares.

    It's such a mess and while "House of Harkness" may try to make sense of the Darkhold (even if Wanda doesn't appear in it), it's a waste of a movie and unsatisfying to everyone: even people who hate Wanda can't enjoy seeing her get her comeuppance because her behavior makes no sense.

    I think the only way to enjoy this movie is to forget about character (Strange, or Wanda, or anyone) and just enjoy it as cheesy fun. I know people who enjoyed it but very few who think the story makes sense.
    It was just a mess with tons of plot holes.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  4. #3724
    Elektra Natchios vitaminbee's Avatar
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    I always thought the Scarlet Witch is Wanda and it's not two separate things. It's different from Jean Grey and Phoenix. I think the MCU's SW can be good, but Agatha only saw it as evil. Though Agatha in the MCU was evil too, so it doesn't quite make sense why she would want the Scarlet Witch's powers if it was an awful thing. I thought it had more to do with her power level.

    Some Hellfire Gala fanart:

  5. #3725
    Chaos bringer GenericUsername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitaminbee View Post
    I always thought the Scarlet Witch is Wanda and it's not two separate things. It's different from Jean Grey and Phoenix. I think the MCU's SW can be good, but Agatha only saw it as evil. Though Agatha in the MCU was evil too, so it doesn't quite make sense why she would want the Scarlet Witch's powers if it was an awful thing. I thought it had more to do with her power level.

    Some Hellfire Gala fanart:
    In comics, the Scarlet Witch is just her hero name. She takes it on to own insults against her about her powers.

    The MCU making it some different, evil identity is odd and hasn't really worked out. Because even they don't seem sure about if it's completely separate or her future self.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  6. #3726
    Elektra Natchios vitaminbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    In comics, the Scarlet Witch is just her hero name. She takes it on to own insults against her about her powers.

    The MCU making it some different, evil identity is odd and hasn't really worked out. Because even they don't seem sure about if it's completely separate or her future self.
    Yes? But I’m saying they aren’t two separate things and that I think she can still be redeemed.

  7. #3727
    Chaos bringer GenericUsername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitaminbee View Post
    Yes? But I’m saying they aren’t two separate things and that I think she can still be redeemed.
    They really shouldn't be separate things and I agree she can be redeemed.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  8. #3728
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I don't know what MCU writers are paid to say that they need more money. I know that comic book writers have not been paid much over the years, and aren't paid much again when their stories are lifted for the MCU.

    But despite pay, there are always good and bad writers. There are good writers that have bad stories and vice versa. I would not doubt that writers are underpaid at all. But that blame would still fall on Marvel and Disney. Just like them oking what happened in this film. Or happens sometimes in comics. There isn't just the writers that make these things.

    I thought the idea that magic was broken was interesting but might not have been Aaron's idea. Strange fans don't like that he's always being depowered, controlled or losing his SS title. Which is valid. Marvel uses their magic users as a plot device too much.

    MCU audiences aren't against dialog or anything. And judging from some reactions were confused about the stuff in Strange 2. So some explanation of the different types of magic, other than gold good, red bad would have been nice.

    I don't think the multiverse stuff is even them going into nostalgia, because all the stories they've plucked from are modern for this.
    I always say if you want people to perform better for you, often times you have to pay them more. That goes for almost every line of work. But you're right, writers who get paid a lot can do shitty jobs. While "starving artists" can create masterpieces. So I get what you're saying. Well, I'm pleasantly surprised you're not being too hard on Aaron (like other Strange fans). I don't think he's one of your favorite writers, but I sense you appreciate what he was trying to do in streamlining magic in Marvel Comics. I think DC is trying to do the same thing with their mystical characters. I think MCU audiences want the quippy dialogue they've come to expect over the past decade. I guess Strange 2 was a funny movie in parts. It seems that you actually might prefer Whedon's humor over Waldron's!

    I think bringing back Marvel characters from other studios is nostalgia-baiting. Apparently it worked with that last Spider-Man movie. Not so much in the MoM. I was actually surprised Captain Picard showed up at all in the MoM. I'm not sure his appearance in Strange 2 topped his farewell in Logan (which I didn't see but have heard was well-received). I like it more when movies like Top Gun: Maverick indulge in nostalgia. At least it's somewhat plausible in a fictional world without going into crazy science fiction concepts. I'm not trying to knock the MCU, but I think Top Gun: Maverick and Everything Everywhere All at Once will be much better received than the MoM, unfortunately. Hopefully Thor will be good. I liked Ragnarok.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 05-15-2022 at 01:53 PM.

  9. #3729
    Chaos bringer GenericUsername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I always say if you want people to perform better for you, often times you have to pay them more. That goes for almost every line of work. But you're right, writers who get paid a lot can do shitty jobs. While "starving artists" can do create masterpieces. So I get what you're saying. Well, I'm pleasantly surprised you're not being too hard on Aaron (like other Strange fans). I don't think he's one of your favorite writers, but I sense you appreciate what he was trying to do in streamlining magic in Marvel Comics. I think DC is trying to do the same thing with their mystical characters. I think MCU audiences want the quippy dialogue they've come to expect over the past decade. I guess Strange 2 was a funny movie in parts. It seems that you actually might prefer Whedon's humor over Waldron's!

    I think bringing back Marvel characters from other studios is nostalgia-baiting. Apparently it worked with that last Spider-Man movie. Not so much in the MoM. I was actually surprised Captain Picard showed up at all in the MoM. I'm not sure his appearance in Strange 2 topped his farewell in Logan (which I didn't see but have heard was well-received). I like it more when movies like Top Gun: Maverick indulge in nostalgia. At least it's somewhat plausible in a fictional world without going into crazy science fiction concepts. I'm not trying to knock the MCU, but I think Top Gun: Maverick and Everything Everywhere All at Once will be much better received than the MoM, unfortunately. Hopefully Thor will be good. I liked Ragnarok.
    Some people you can pay more and they don't do a better job though. So I don't know. That's an issue that just needs more information because we have no idea what they are even being paid. And Hollywood has a union. So I'm guessing they get whatever is appropriate based on that.

    Kind of, but from not even that long ago. Because many of those movies are from the 2000s. It is indeed fan service though. But also they "bonered" people again.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  10. #3730
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    I don't think they're going with the idea that the Scarlet Witch is a separate personality or anything. It's just that they gave this meaning to the name from the prophecy, so when Wanda says "they're gonna meet the Scarlet Witch" or whatever she means she's gonna live up to this myth that's been told in the Darkhold. I think Lizzie has talked in a bunch of interviews about Wanda "accepting her destiny as this mythic woman" or something (which kinda goes against the "I don't need you to tell me who I am" from WandaVision...).

  11. #3731
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Not trying to disagree with gurkle here, and I do concur most audiences don't really care about the "rules" in magic. But if you have SOME rules, you can avoid some glaring contradictions. I always wondered, why couldn't Wanda just recreate her family somewhere else? She created life using "magic" before, why couldn't she do it again? I don't know if you folks have read J.R.R. Tolkien's Silmarillion, but one of the mightiest Elves in Tolkien's legendarium, Fëanor, created Three Great Jewels (the "Infinity Stones" of Tolkien's publciations) from the light of the Two Trees of Valinor (the home of the gods, the Ainur, who entered the world, Arda). But he could never copy them again, because part of his essence went into their making. The first Dark Lord in Tolkien's works, Melkor (or Morgoth), was the mightiest of all the Ainur (the gods of Tolkien's novels). He poured much of his essence into corrupting Arda, gradually diluting his power by letting “most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth.” The MCU should have had Harkness explain that since part of Wanda's "essence" went into creating the boys, she couldn't do it again. That's a limit to her power. You see where I'm going with this?

    Look, I didn't mind the whole "Boner" controversy because I understand WandaVision's creators were riffing on sitcoms (particularly the show Growing Pains). Those of us who were growing up in the late 80s and early 90s would get the inside joke there (Feige, Shakman and Schaeffer all probably watched Growing Pains growing up too), but I understand why a lot of people wouldn't. But in retrospect, they probably should have took out the Fietro meta stuff and focused more on Wanda's magic. What it can and can't do.

    Nobody really is talking about Wanda's rune magic now because the creators apparently didn't use it in Strange 2. I actually thought that they would. It would have been a natural progression of things. I enjoyed how the whole thing was executed in Wanda's series. "As Agatha explained to Wanda Maximoff in WandaVision, “Power is not your problem. It is knowledge”. Wanda already had the power to cast runes; however, she lacked the knowledge of what casting runes would do — until Agatha told her 'In a given space, only a witch who cast [the runes] can use her magic." It was not a deus ex machina situation to me. It had been set-up nicely in the last two episodes. I think the concept could have been executed even BETTER if Wanda had spent more on-screen time with Agatha, but the show diverted its focus to Fietro. And by doing that it added more problems in my view. Did Ralph get his super speed power from Agatha's neckless? Or did Agatha gift Ralph his power by subverting Wanda's reality warping spell? I think Harkness's series will go into what kinds of powers witches in the MCU have (and in a really funny way too). The transition between WandaVision and Harkness's show should be relatively smooth because Schaeffer worked on the former and will work on the latter.

    I'm VERY forgiving to the creators of the MoM because I think they've been overworked and overstretched. The producers and writers of Strange 2 were heavily involved in Loki and they quickly had to switch gears from television series to major motion picture. And they had deadlines to meet, COVID to deal with, and other projects to work on not related to Marvel. So I will cut them some slack. Could they have spent a weekend watching WandaVision? Sure. You don't even need a weekend. Wanda's rune magic was covered largely in the final two episodes of WandaVision. But Wanda's rune magic IS a pretty esoteric topic to even discuss. I don't think people were talking on this thread about it either so I can't blame the creators of the MoM for missing it. The only reason why I noticed it is because I'm interested in magic-building in the MCU. I think a lot of people would be bored discussing it. All I'm saying is that unless other magic users put up runes around her, Wanda did not have to be so violent in the pursuit of her objectives in Strange 2 (if that indeed was apparently the case).

  12. #3732
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Some people you can pay more and they don't do a better job though. So I don't know. That's an issue that just needs more information because we have no idea what they are even being paid. And Hollywood has a union. So I'm guessing they get whatever is appropriate based on that.

    Kind of, but from not even that long ago. Because many of those movies are from the 2000s. It is indeed fan service though. But also they "bonered" people again.
    Yeah, hopefully Disney writers are paid in a way that incentivizes them to perform better. Don't know what's going on there though. I would prefer if the MCU move on from earlier versions of Marvel characters owned by other studios. I didn't watch a lot of the non-MCU Marvel stuff so I can't be bothered to catch up on those properties. The MCU is already giving me more than I can handle.

  13. #3733
    Chaos bringer GenericUsername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Yeah, hopefully Disney writers are paid in a way that incentivizes them to perform better. Don't know what's going on there though. I would prefer if the MCU move on from earlier versions of Marvel characters owned by other studios. I didn't watch a lot of the non-MCU Marvel stuff so I can't be bothered to catch up on those properties. The MCU is already giving me more than I can handle.
    It's entirely why I didn't want the fan service to begin with. People are already requesting that same thing for Secret Wars too. Even though that incursions story didn't have a bevy of heroes from other universes in it. But I fully expect Marvel to turn it into that at fan request and it to be the same mess.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  14. #3734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I don't think they're going with the idea that the Scarlet Witch is a separate personality or anything. It's just that they gave this meaning to the name from the prophecy, so when Wanda says "they're gonna meet the Scarlet Witch" or whatever she means she's gonna live up to this myth that's been told in the Darkhold. I think Lizzie has talked in a bunch of interviews about Wanda "accepting her destiny as this mythic woman" or something (which kinda goes against the "I don't need you to tell me who I am" from WandaVision...).
    Yeah, it's just that the way it played out in the film it sometimes seemed like they were separate, and the writer leaned into that by saying that at the end she's no longer the Scarlet Witch and is back to being Wanda.

    Again, it doesn't make any sense, because they're not literally saying the Scarlet Witch is a separate person... except that the way Olsen plays it, she really is a completely different person for most of the movie and then suddenly snaps back into being the character we know. I think she's just trying to make sense of this in her own mind, regardless of whether she thinks this makes sense for the character (she's come very close to admitting it doesn't).

  15. #3735
    Extraordinary Member Galerion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I don't think they're going with the idea that the Scarlet Witch is a separate personality or anything. It's just that they gave this meaning to the name from the prophecy, so when Wanda says "they're gonna meet the Scarlet Witch" or whatever she means she's gonna live up to this myth that's been told in the Darkhold. I think Lizzie has talked in a bunch of interviews about Wanda "accepting her destiny as this mythic woman" or something (which kinda goes against the "I don't need you to tell me who I am" from WandaVision...).
    I think that makes sense and she used it as a tool for intimidation. Someone like Wong who is familiar with it immediately recognized in what grave danger they are when the name dropped.
    As a matter of she really used all kinds of persuasion attempts to get what she wants. Intimidation by dropping the Scarlet Witch name and arriving the way she did at Kamar Taj, saying to Strange how sacrificing America would be for the greater good(a notion he is very familiar with), saying how she could send him to a universe where he could be with Christine(another thing that nagged on him) and saying how nobody should be talking to her about sacrifice when she killed the man she loved for the greater good only for that to be rendered pointless. By Strange himself even.

    When Strange still defied her despite all her other attempts you could really see on her face that what followed really wasn't what she wanted to do. Terrific acting by Olsen in that scene by the way.
    Last edited by Galerion; 05-15-2022 at 03:37 PM.

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