"CHAOS Magic Woman!" Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff Appreciation 2022

[Galerion]

This is really true and one of many things that don't make sense about the movie. Wanda and Strange never really met before this movie. They didn't know each other and he is not the SS of this world. Furthermore she'd not really know who the SS was, because she was blipped. And didn't know Wong either before this.

And the only way we even knew that Wong was SS was a joke in Spider-man.

Keep in mind that we are not spoon-fed everything. The Avengers obviously spent some time together that we haven't been shown. The fact that Wanda went from new recruit in Age of Ultron to part of the team at Lagos in Civil War is proof of that. We don't need to see stuff like that because it's obvious they spent time together training and building the team.

In the same vein Wanda, Strange and Wong all fought Thanos and his army together in Endgame. They were also all present at Tony's funeral. Unless we assume everyone showed up and immediately left again it's safe to assume people actually talked with each other.

I mean you aren't questioning either that when Wanda walked into the SWORD HQ people knew who she was, right? She was an Avenger so obviously people know her.

I get where you coming from but this is a clear case where the storytelling medium has its limits. Imagine if you would actually have to have every single character in the MCU making acquaintance with each other first. That runtime is better spent on devoloping relationships that matter.
It's obvious Strange and Wong weren't friends with Wanda but as stated it's not a stretch to assume they at least knew each other considering their status in the world.

[Witchfan]

Elizabeth Olsen was on Good Morning America today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH5cdhnKzE8

At 4:40 they discuss her MCU future.

[MaximoffTrash]

Keep in mind that we are not spoon-fed everything. The Avengers obviously spent some time together that we haven't been shown. The fact that Wanda went from new recruit in Age of Ultron to part of the team at Lagos in Civil War is proof of that. We don't need to see stuff like that because it's obvious they spent time together training and building the team.

In the same vein Wanda, Strange and Wong all fought Thanos and his army together in Endgame. They were also all present at Tony's funeral. Unless we assume everyone showed up and immediately left again it's safe to assume people actually talked with each other.

I mean you aren't questioning either that when Wanda walked into the SWORD HQ people knew who she was, right? She was an Avenger so obviously people know her.

I get where you coming from but this is a clear case where the storytelling medium has its limits. Imagine if you would actually have to have every single character in the MCU making acquaintance with each other first. That runtime is better spent on devoloping relationships that matter.
It's obvious Strange and Wong weren't friends with Wanda but as stated it's not a stretch to assume they at least knew each other considering their status in the world.

Except Wanda being a teammate is not actually crucial to the plot when certain stuff in MoM is.
Wanda actually had interactions with Steve and co in AoU, which is not the case in IW/Endgame.
If you are to assume stuff, there should be ground to work upon.
The same movie just lets you assume Stephen adn Mordo had unpleasant history in the main universe, seems like some major plot points they are skipping.

What about Wanda walking into SWORD HQ? I don't see she knowing Hayward or Monica offscreen so what is to compare here?
No one is asking for ultra detailed description of every event, but you are seriously just saying "hey, if you can assume X, you can assume everything."

[gurkle]

It's true the MCU asks us to take a lot on faith but it never works. Why do you think Wanda and Vision were never very popular before WandaVision? Because no one had ever shown them falling in love onscreen, so their big sacrifice only became meaningful retroactively when the show actually showed us what they were like as a couple.

[GenericUsername]

Keep in mind that we are not spoon-fed everything. The Avengers obviously spent some time together that we haven't been shown. The fact that Wanda went from new recruit in Age of Ultron to part of the team at Lagos in Civil War is proof of that. We don't need to see stuff like that because it's obvious they spent time together training and building the team.

In the same vein Wanda, Strange and Wong all fought Thanos and his army together in Endgame. They were also all present at Tony's funeral. Unless we assume everyone showed up and immediately left again it's safe to assume people actually talked with each other.

I mean you aren't questioning either that when Wanda walked into the SWORD HQ people knew who she was, right? She was an Avenger so obviously people know her.

I get where you coming from but this is a clear case where the storytelling medium has its limits. Imagine if you would actually have to have every single character in the MCU making acquaintance with each other first. That runtime is better spent on devoloping relationships that matter.
It's obvious Strange and Wong weren't friends with Wanda but as stated it's not a stretch to assume they at least knew each other considering their status in the world.

Fought Thanos but often not even in the same place. I cannot tell you that I've ever met everyone at a funeral (or wakes in my family we have wakes), even ones for my own family. It's a very different focus during that period of time that has nothing to do with socializing. People give their condolences and move on. And knowing someone is not the same as even being an acquaintance. I wish they had kept Agatha as her mentor. But they were too focused on teasing everyone about who the villain of the show was.

Same with the SWORD HQ, they knew who she was because she was famous. I don't think I could say the same thing about Wong. But they still didn't know her, she didn't know them. And likely if SWORD had a problem with something, they would not be going to Wanda for help. They'd have likely gone to one of the original Avengers.

Storytelling only has that limitation if their focus is elsewhere. And this one was on making an MCU film into a love note to those that love Raimi's corny style of horror. It wasn't really there to develop any of the characters really. Outside of America finding her own strength. Overall this movie really doesn't have to exist for things in the universe to push forward. Because everything that was happening before is still happening. We still have incursions. We got that from Spider-man and Loki already.

This is a universe that has gone on for most of my adult life now. With tons of movies, one-shots, tie-in comics and tv shows. There is absolutely a way for them to set up things for later. They made time for that in earlier phases.

[gurkle]

Even if Wanda and Strange had met at the end of WandaVision as originally intended, they needed to actually set up their relationship in this movie. Which they were originally going to do, until Raimi and Waldron came up with this new story where Wanda is evil from the beginning.

Similarly, even if the tag scene of WandaVision actually foreshadowed the events of this movie, which it doesn't, they needed to actually show how she turned into a baby-crazy psycho who doesn't even care about the man she loves. They didn't because they didn't care about story or character, which is a problem that all the characters have in this movie, not just Wanda.

You don't need a lot of setup but you do need some.

[GenericUsername]

Even if Wanda and Strange had met at the end of WandaVision as originally intended, they needed to actually set up their relationship in this movie. Which they were originally going to do, until Raimi and Waldron came up with this new story where Wanda is evil from the beginning.

Similarly, even if the tag scene of WandaVision actually foreshadowed the events of this movie, which it doesn't, they needed to actually show how she turned into a baby-crazy psycho who doesn't even care about the man she loves. They didn't because they didn't care about story or character, which is a problem that all the characters have in this movie, not just Wanda.

You don't need a lot of setup but you do need some.

And a lot of people, even ones that like her as a villain have stated that the turn to the extreme was a bit much too quick.

[GenericUsername]

Elizabeth Olsen was on Good Morning America today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH5cdhnKzE8

At 4:40 they discuss her MCU future.

I believe her here, because I have seen how bad she is at lying, lol. But hopefully, eventually someone contacts her about something. Especially since one producer seemed to hint at there being more, with her being the jewel.

[Wiccan]

Ok so, I actually only watched the movie last week after it came do Disney Plus. I kind of enjoyed it. I had already been spoiled to death and even before it started airing I knew the leaks. So I knew what it was gonna be and was prepared for the worse.

If you just watch the movie without taking it too seriously, it's fun. I think that's the best thing the movie has going for it: It's entertaining. It could have used a bigger length to expand on some things, but I was satisfied enough with what it was. If it was like, a TV show broken into episodes, it'd be boring, but as something fast-paced that goes by quickly in 2h, it's at least exciting to watch.

One thing I was really worried about tbh was the whole discourse. But I feel like that hasn't changed at all. People who loved Wanda still love her, who hated her still hate her, and I don't think too many neutrals changed their minds. What she does here is objectively worse than in WandaVision, and I don't think it's a natural progression at all, but it's somewhat belieavable if you consider that there's been a big timeskip, where she has been reading the Darkhold and having those dreams of the life she wanted for years by that point. I feel like overall, the movie is still considerably sympathetic towards her, and Lizzie sells it.

I like that in the end it was her children that brought back her humanity. I feel like in the comics, they were sort of portrayed more negatively, in the sense that Wanda shouldn't want to have had those kids at all. In this movie, it's more about how she shouldn't take them from the other Wanda who is already their mother. So I feel like they are portrayed in a somewhat more positive light. Her pain feels more akin to her usual theme of grief that she already felt for Vision, Pietro and her parents. I also like that they had her doing a big heroic act at the end. Most people are gonna discredit it, but destroying the Darkhold in every universe is indeed a meaningful act, it does matter that not any Wanda, or anyone else (like both 838 Strange and the other evil one) will get tempted by it, which is an infinite amount of possible universes being saved.

I think the real worst part about it is that it's repetitive, reductive. Even if she's not really a villain in WandaVision, the show ends with her learning the error of her ways and "doing the right thing" even if it hurts her. And then on this movie she just goes through that same "arc" again. They're even a bit heavy-handed about it, literally saying "she did the right thing'" in case some people didn't realize what they were supposed to think lol. And it's also clear imo that this is indeed still Strange's movie, because she's ultimately used as a counterpoint to him. She wants to take America's powers, like the ponytail Strange. She reads the Darkhold, like the 838 and the other evil Strange. She's a threat to other realities, like the 838 Strange. The movie basically tries to scream on your ears that that could be him too depending on the circumstances. Which does make me feel a little better, but it's also sad too since she's not the one getting the "alternate versions being worse so you could be better" arc.

Another thing I found annoying was the... Contradictions? I could feel like almost everything she said ("That doesn't seem fair", whenever she called out his "hypocrisy") was written with the idea that she kinda has a point, like some provocative commentary with an intent to challenge both Strange and the audience. But if you're not convinced at all and sees it as her being irrational? Don't worry, it's because of the Darkhold then. Besides that, at some points she's portrayed as a campy evil archetype, kinda like Agatha in WandaVision, and then in others she's the more vulnerable emotional Wanda we saw on WandaVision. And it kinda feels like two characters mashed into one.

[Galerion]

This comes back to the thing we often say about Wanda with House of M: I don't blame characters for bad writing.

In the context of "WandaVision," all we saw was Wanda studying the only source on how to control her powers. She was told about it by Agatha, who was not crazy or corrupt. In the show, there was nothing wrong with what she did and the book was not an all-corrupting thing. They just changed that, offscreen, between the end of the show and the start of the movie, and I'm not blaming a character (not just Wanda) for writing that makes no sense and isn't shown onscreen.

And of course we don't know that Wanda chose not to contact Strange, because we never saw them meet before. Again, bad writing to have a character completely change offscreen and never explain how or why it happened except "she read a book."

This brings us back to: I'm happy to say what Wanda did consciously in WandaVision was her fault (not the creation of the Hex itself of course) because the writers made the case that it was in character and showed us why she did it. Blaming her for MoM, no; if the writers won't show us why it happened then it didn't happen, it's just a writer's mistake like "No more mutants."

I know you have some strange sympathy for Agatha but really stop that narrative. She literally was lying right into Wandas face and was about to kill her.

"Give me your power and I will correct the flaws in your original spell. And you and your family, and the people of Westview can all live together in peace. And no one will ever have to feel this pain again. Not even you."

"About our deal. Once cast a spell can never be changed. This world you made will always be broken. Just like you."

If that is neither crazy nor corrupt to you then I really don't know what else to say. I guess those words have a different definition for you then.

As for your last sentence. It doesn't work that way and never will. And Wanda made the conscious decision to read the Darkhold and that was shown. I don't see much point arguing about facts there.

Yes, and the whole storyline sucks for it, wanna add anything more?
I don't want them to blame Darkhold, I want this it fucking ignored lol.
And seriously, you seem to be aruging on different gournd from some of us here.
The argument is, this story sucks and shouldn't happen in the first place, and since it happens, better to act fast to salvage her after this bloody disaster.

Yes I want to add something more. I disagree.

As for what you want. Well not everybody gets want they want. Believe me I can you tell about it.

I also state again that I disagree with your "argument". There is also no need to salvage something because people love the character in general.

and Wong is suddenly the loremaster of all mystical stuff because he is the SS.(Seriously, that is the reasoning used how Wong know about Wundagore.)

Well maybe you have missed the fact that Wong used to be the librarian of Kamar Taj and even taught Strange. He has always taken his responsibilities very serious too so yes there are few people in the world who can rival Wongs knowledge about anything mystical. And there is nothing sudden about it.

[gurkle]

That's a really good summary, Wiccan.

I think the real worst part about it is that it's repetitive, reductive. Even if she's not really a villain in WandaVision, the show ends with her learning the error of her ways and "doing the right thing" even if it hurts her. And then on this movie she just goes through that same "arc" again. They're even a bit heavy-handed about it, literally saying "she did the right thing'" in case some people didn't realize what they were supposed to think lol.

The "she did the right thing" line was even offscreen. I'll bet they just dubbed it in at the last minute when Feige or whoever gave them a note about exactly that, that they had to hammer it home that she wasn't evil any more.

Actually I wonder if the whole "destroying every Darkhold" thing came in late, considering we only hear about it from Strange. It feels like the two things they did to soften Wanda was to hammer home that she did the right thing in the end, and tone down some of her murderousness. Originally it started with her beheading Mordo and later on (according to the plot leak) she convinced Wong to take her to the Darkhold Castle by threatening to destroy the whole world; that's why he gives up so easily in the final version.

I know you have some strange sympathy for Agatha but really stop that narrative. She literally was lying right into Wandas face and was about to kill her.

"Give me your power and I will correct the flaws in your original spell. And you and your family, and the people of Westview can all live together in peace. And no one will ever have to feel this pain again. Not even you."

"About our deal. Once cast a spell can never be changed. This world you made will always be broken. Just like you."

If that is neither crazy nor corrupt to you then I really don't know what else to say. I guess those words have a different definition for you then.

That's... not crazy. That's lying to Wanda to convince her to give up her power. If Wanda in MoM had lied to get what she wants, fine. It doesn't change that we didn't see Agatha hurt innocent bystanders or any number of the horrible things we see Wanda do in MoM, even though she had the supposedly all-corrupting book for much longer.

Different projects have different ideas about things, just like in the comics; in WandaVision, the Darkhold is not an all-corrupting book that turns the user into a world-destroying psycho; in MoM it is. These things happen.

I don't mind that kind of contradiction but they really had a responsibility to show how the corruption works. As it is, all we know about the Darkhold is from WandaVision, where Wanda opened a book that isn't all-corrupting because she wanted to study her powers so she wouldn't hurt innocent people any more. That's actually a pretty good tragic story -- she tried to understand her power so she wouldn't hurt innocents, and it ended up causing her to hurt more innocents -- but we didn't get to see it.

[WallStreeter]

That's a really good summary, Wiccan.



The "she did the right thing" line was even offscreen. I'll bet they just dubbed it in at the last minute when Feige or whoever gave them a note about exactly that, that they had to hammer it home that she wasn't evil any more.

Actually I wonder if the whole "destroying every Darkhold" thing came in late, considering we only hear about it from Strange. It feels like the two things they did to soften Wanda was to hammer home that she did the right thing in the end, and tone down some of her murderousness. Originally it started with her beheading Mordo and later on (according to the plot leak) she convinced Wong to take her to the Darkhold Castle by threatening to destroy the whole world; that's why he gives up so easily in the final version.



That's... not crazy. That's lying to Wanda to convince her to give up her power. If Wanda in MoM had lied to get what she wants, fine. It doesn't change that we didn't see Agatha hurt innocent bystanders or any number of the horrible things we see Wanda do in MoM, even though she had the supposedly all-corrupting book for much longer.

Different projects have different ideas about things, just like in the comics; in WandaVision, the Darkhold is not an all-corrupting book that turns the user into a world-destroying psycho; in MoM it is. These things happen.

I don't mind that kind of contradiction but they really had a responsibility to show how the corruption works. As it is, all we know about the Darkhold is from WandaVision, where Wanda opened a book that isn't all-corrupting because she wanted to study her powers so she wouldn't hurt innocent people any more. That's actually a pretty good tragic story -- she tried to understand her power so she wouldn't hurt innocents, and it ended up causing her to hurt more innocents -- but we didn't get to see it.

So lying to convince Wanda to give up her power. I doubt Agatha was going to end world hunger had Wanda given up her powers or been defeated. Agatha was evil and there's no point in trying to deny it. The Darkhold seems to make whoever learns magic that way power hungry.

Wanda was murderous when her plans accidently got exposed and Dr. Strange and Wong stood in her way. She just sent someone demons after America, and only when alternate Strange tried to save America, did she kill him.

Her true goal was to steal America's powers. Sound familiar? Like Agatha wanted to steal hers. Wanda had lied to Strange and told him he could bring America to her space and she would keep her safe. But she screwed up and mention America's name. That's how Strange knew. If Wanda hadn't have mentioned Strange by name, he could have brought her that and Wanda would have stolen her powers.

[WallStreeter]

I don't quite agree.

Yes Monicas line is half-assed but not for the reason you are stating. It is because it's simply tone-deaf and doesn't suit the situation. The townspeople are the victims. Putting any kind of blame on them is stupid and Monicas line basically does that because it implies they should have sympathy for Wandas loss. That is simply a writers mistake. Nothing more. If you remove that line the complaints about it disappear and nothing else changes. Monica cannot arrest Wanda even if she wanted to so deescalation is the only course available in that situation. In fact there is nobody with the power to hold Wanda responsible for her actions. Just like nobody can arrest Captain Marvel or Thor or the Hulk. That is an in-universe flaw with the justice system that might be addressed in the future or not. Either way it doesn't really matter in this case because of all of it is obvious and understandable.

Monica also understood Wanda's power level. At her level of powers there's nothing the government can do to do anything to her. So Monica was trying to deescalate things the whole time, but the idiot Hayward wouldn't listen to her. So Monica's line wasn't a writers mistake. She didn't want Wanda to flip out on the towns people. It was deescalation, plus it was Monica understanding how grief can affect people. She said she would bring her mother back if she had Wanda's powers, so she had empathy for Wanda. Plus there was an understanding between the two because both had similar lines of work, and both had lost their families.

[Galerion]

That's... not crazy. That's lying to Wanda to convince her to give up her power.

And kill her. But maybe we should ask the dried husks of her mother and her coven if they are really dead first.

we didn't see Agatha hurt innocent bystanders

Except Sparky I guess. Killed just so she could observe what Wanda would do. But it's a dog so he's clearly a lesser lifeform that doesn't count. Just won't let John Wick hear that.

in WandaVision, the Darkhold is not an all-corrupting book that turns the user into a world-destroying psycho; in MoM it is.

Wanda has the power to do so. Agatha lacks that power. Are we forgetting about this whole power-stealing thing again?
Also headcanon.

That's actually a pretty good tragic story -- she tried to understand her power so she wouldn't hurt innocents, and it ended up causing her to hurt more innocents -- but we didn't get to see it.

Well then that's apparently open for interpretation because I did see that.

[gurkle]

So lying to convince Wanda to give up her power. I doubt Agatha was going to end world hunger had Wanda given up her powers or been defeated. Agatha was evil and there's no point in trying to deny it. The Darkhold seems to make whoever learns magic that way power hungry.

Wanda was murderous when her plans accidently got exposed and Dr. Strange and Wong stood in her way. She just sent someone demons after America, and only when alternate Strange tried to save America, did she kill him.

Her true goal was to steal America's powers. Sound familiar? Like Agatha wanted to steal hers.

Yes, I think retrospectively they might go with the idea that the Darkhold made Agatha power-hungry and maybe the destruction of the Darkhold will free her up to be less obsessed with stealing power.

The show deliberately didn't tell us why Agatha wanted Wanda's power -- all she said was Wanda was unworthy to handle so much power with no knowledge of how to use it, which was true -- because it was important that the stakes in the final battle should only be about who would get the power of the Scarlet Witch. For Agatha to have obviously evil motives in wanting the power would have let Wanda off the hook.

But I don't think Agatha was portrayed as a real villain (she helped Wanda and Westview too much for that) or the Darkhold as a corrupting artifact, or they would have, you know, said something about the Darkhold corrupting people. But when we see Agatha again, obviously, that portrayal of the Darkhold will be established and they'll roll with it. (TV shows don't seem to be able to ignore the movies the way the movies ignore the shows.)