"CHAOS Magic Woman!" Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff Appreciation 2022

[Galerion]

Here’s an even bigger loophole. Chthon himself still exists.

Wanda still saved the day by destroying the Darkhold. I think in every universe Chthon is tied to Mt. Wundergore.

I think all the Mt. Wundergore’s temples all got destroyed. That does not mean Chthon can’t find other ways to grant that knowledge.

Or someone who read the Darkhold might be able to write a new copy if they wanted to. I do think there will be ways for other people to get that knowledge at some point. And you could be right, there could be temples under than Mt. Wundergore with that knowledge.

Those who read the Darkhold get permanently affected. Look what it did to Strange. Same as Wanda and Agatha. They won’t be the same.

Oh yeah Cthon certainly can still show up. I saw some speculation that the magical explosion at the end when the temple collapsed was even an intervention from him to keep his chosen one alive so he has a chance to go for another attempt. After all time is of no relevance for a being like him.

Either way it's a perfect set-up to have her show-up somewhere else. Maybe even amnesic and also a good opportunity to introduce Latveria and Dr. Doom while we are at it.

[jmc247]

Either way it's a perfect set-up to have her show-up somewhere else. Maybe even amnesic and also a good opportunity to introduce Latveria and Dr. Doom while we are at it.

If we are heading into Secret Wars as is almost certain then it stands to reason she will probably not be on Earth 616 for the event. Then the question is what universes collide? If I were a betting man I would say there are very good odds of a Doom led world, a Magneto led world, a Hulk led world, etc.

[CJStriker]

In a way things are actually looking good. WandaVision was inspired by House of M. Dr. Strange 2 by Avengers Disassembled. They took Wanda’s most villainous turns and dealt with them and got them out of the way. Things can only go up from here.

Via the multiverse, she’s going to somehow get rebutted with her children and brother. And gain a father and half sister.

We could and have some starting good hope with this. Mostly Like I said in my other post that they have to try at the very least to go another route now that they played out the tragity and with desire to see Wanda just seem to be increasing and I doubt MoM will slow it down they have to go the more traditional hero route finally espically with Wanda's MoM ending showing that of her.

[Galerion]

You can never be sure of anything these days, but I truly don't think Magneto will ever be relevant to her in the MCU. Or at best he'll be the father of that other Wanda if she appears again.

Anyway I really don't care if she ever gets reunited with her children, I mostly want to see her have some growth and make actual friends. If she reunites with Agatha and they become friends like they should be, that's a start. And for God's sake, have Clint remember she exists.



As usual it depends on the writers. In "WandaVision" Agatha seemed mostly all right, or at least sane, but spoilers:

the team behind Multiverse of Madness reveal that it corrupts the mind of anyone who uses it, which wasn't mentioned by Agatha. I'm going to no-prize the contradiction by theorizing that Agatha tricked Wanda into taking the book by telling her about the Scarlet Witch chapter, knowing it would destroy Wanda and keep her from whatever is supposed to make her destroy the world. Meanwhile Agatha has been around much longer than Strange or Wanda and probably knows some tricks for keeping the book from taking her over. No, it doesn't make a lot of sense but I doubt we'll ever get an explanation of why Agatha seemed to be able to resist it, or why she didn't warn Wanda about the effects of the book if she was so worried about what the Scarlet Witch might do.

end of spoilers

I feel your kinda skipping over the entire part of Agatha being a power-sucking arrogant old hag who thought herself fully in control until the very end where she was shown up by this "novice" and was immediately hexed as punishment.
Like what would have happened if she would have been successful? Im pretty sure she would have tried to become the Scarlet Witch who rules over all herself or at least would have attempted to. Either way it certainly wouldn't have been a positive at all and totally in line with someone under Darkhold corruption.

[GenericUsername]

I just hope we get some of Agatha and Wanda free of the Darkhold's embrace and they work together. Would be nice for them to have somewhat of the relationship they had in comics.

[CJStriker]

I just hope we get some of Agatha and Wanda free of the Darkhold's embrace and they work together. Would be nice for them to have somewhat of the relationship they had in comics.

That is to Hoping the Agatha show might be about that, About Wanda's Starting Comeback and her getting with Agatha, learning from her. If that gets Annouced, it would be a guaranty Mega-Hit that might Break the Net, LOL.

[gurkle]

I feel your kinda skipping over the entire part of Agatha being a power-sucking arrogant old hag who thought herself fully in control until the very end where she was shown up by this "novice" and was immediately hexed as punishment.
Like what would have happened if she would have been successful? Im pretty sure she would have tried to become the Scarlet Witch who rules over all herself or at least would have attempted to. Either way it certainly wouldn't have been a positive at all and totally in line with someone under Darkhold corruption.

Maybe I'm biased by my preference for Comics Agatha -- MCU Agatha is sort of a cross between that and the Emerald Warlock -- but I don't see her that way. The show was very vague about why she wanted Wanda's power, and that was partly to make sure that Wanda was not absolved of what she did to Westview (her fight against Agatha was not a hero vs. villain battle), and partly to keep to the point that she's telling Wanda some hard truths about herself. In this case she says Wanda can't handle all the power she's been accidentally given, which was hard to deny even before this movie.

We will know more about Agatha's backstory, but what we know so far is that the only humans she was seen killing were in self-defense, and it was because even her own mother would rather kill her than trust her. When she reveals herself to Wanda, she isn't nice to her, but she's the only person in the show who truly helps her by forcing her to confront the truth about herself and remember how this all started.

They may retcon her into being under the Darkhold's control when we next see her, but in the show itself, she seems to be what she says she is: someone who showed up in Westview because she sensed someone had pulled off this seemingly impossible spell, and tried to figure out how Wanda did it and the limits of her power (which explains killing the dog to see if Wanda could bring it back). She certainly didn't seem malevolent or crazy, certainly nothing like the way the Darkhold affected other people's minds, but again they might explain she had some way around it, or perhaps she was corrupted centuries ago and worked her way back.

[CJStriker]

Just saw the movie, even after having spoiled the movie for myself throughly, and all I’m gonna say is: I’m disappointed.

I give you Allot of Credit for going to see the movie and sharing your experiance with us Bunch of Coconuts.

If you need to talk or share anything about it please do, the good and bad, we are here for you.

[Gnostic]

Elizabeth Olsen said that the 616 Wanda possessed a weaker version of Wanda and thus had limitations.

https://twitter.com/itsjustanx/statu...61213811732480

Dawn, that means pre-Scarlet Witch Wanda was already the strongest Avenger.

[Drops Of Venus]

I think she's pretty irredeemable unless they somehow find a way to swap her out with a variant or retroactively undo the murdering. Then again, it could be interesting to see her remorseful for what she's done, but having to deal with the consequences. There's no skirting around the ending being very unsatisfying and haphazard.

There is no such thing as irredeemable in superhero narrative. Loki got a ''redeeming'' show that takes place MOMENTS after he decimated NYC and caused the death of countless innocent people. And unlike Wanda, he was never a hero, was not being corrupted by any external force and only wanted power/control/destruction while Wanda only wanted her kids.

Absolutely nothing in the MCU and how it treats its characters leads me to the belief she can't possible come back from this. It's not gonna be pretty, and she's definitely gonna carry the same stigma that she has been carrying in the comics, but it can happen. ''Morality'' in superhero stories are not realistic, nor should they be, otherwise Wanda would've been DONE as a character in the comics after 2005/2006. But if she could come back from that, she can come back from this.

[WinterCoyote]

Elizabeth Olsen said that the 616 Wanda possessed a weaker version of Wanda and thus had limitations.

https://twitter.com/itsjustanx/statu...61213811732480

Dawn, that means pre-Scarlet Witch Wanda was already the strongest Avenger.

There is one more big factor. Wanda doesn't really care what happens to alt-Wanda's body. In fact, it would make replacing her easier if alt Wanda is weaker or lethally wounded while in the process of sending America back to main Wanda. So main Wanda has no reason to hold back and could do riskier or damaging things she might not have done with her own body.

[Galerion]

Maybe I'm biased by my preference for Comics Agatha -- MCU Agatha is sort of a cross between that and the Emerald Warlock -- but I don't see her that way. The show was very vague about why she wanted Wanda's power, and that was partly to make sure that Wanda was not absolved of what she did to Westview (her fight against Agatha was not a hero vs. villain battle), and partly to keep to the point that she's telling Wanda some hard truths about herself. In this case she says Wanda can't handle all the power she's been accidentally given, which was hard to deny even before this movie.

We will know more about Agatha's backstory, but what we know so far is that the only humans she was seen killing were in self-defense, and it was because even her own mother would rather kill her than trust her. When she reveals herself to Wanda, she isn't nice to her, but she's the only person in the show who truly helps her by forcing her to confront the truth about herself and remember how this all started.

They may retcon her into being under the Darkhold's control when we next see her, but in the show itself, she seems to be what she says she is: someone who showed up in Westview because she sensed someone had pulled off this seemingly impossible spell, and tried to figure out how Wanda did it and the limits of her power (which explains killing the dog to see if Wanda could bring it back). She certainly didn't seem malevolent or crazy, certainly nothing like the way the Darkhold affected other people's minds, but again they might explain she had some way around it, or perhaps she was corrupted centuries ago and worked her way back.

Agatha didn't spell out her entire plan like some cartoon villian which is good because that is silly and hard to take serious. Still you can make some very reasonable guesses about her and I don't feel it was far off the mark.

But I see there is another thing that you consistently make. You are under the false assumption that the Darkhold in MoM instantly turns you into some cackling villain who wants to see the world burn when that is flat out not true. You then state that just because Agatha wasn't that way it is some inconsistency or that Agatha wasn't that bad or she found some way to resist it. Again that is not true at all because the Darkhold doesn't work that way in either WV or MoM.

Wanda wanted to see her kids again. That's hardly malevolent. Sinister Strange just wanted to be happy again and be reunited with Christine. Again that is hardly malevolent. As a matter of fact when Wanda entered Cthons temple and saw that is was built to honor her she still said that she doesn't care about all of that. She really just wanted to be with her kids again. Yet both were clearly under the influence of the book and did some terrible acts because of it.

The Darkhold influence is way more subtle than you give it credit for and twists even non-malevolent goals into something else over time. So in light of this it is safe to say that Agatha has been under the influence of Darkhold the entire time. Even if she had no actual malevolent intentions at the beginning which I find unlikely but it's open to interpretation so fair game. That would have changed soon after. Sinister Strange also apparently lived with the Darkhold for a long time in his destroyed world and he still didn't turn into some gibbering monster.

[GenericUsername]

Elizabeth Olsen said that the 616 Wanda possessed a weaker version of Wanda and thus had limitations.

https://twitter.com/itsjustanx/statu...61213811732480

Dawn, that means pre-Scarlet Witch Wanda was already the strongest Avenger.

I don't really care as much about her being the strongest. I want her to be well rounded and well-developed. Most powerful just ended up with her getting the Supes treatment.

[Frontier]

Maybe I'm biased by my preference for Comics Agatha -- MCU Agatha is sort of a cross between that and the Emerald Warlock -- but I don't see her that way. The show was very vague about why she wanted Wanda's power, and that was partly to make sure that Wanda was not absolved of what she did to Westview (her fight against Agatha was not a hero vs. villain battle), and partly to keep to the point that she's telling Wanda some hard truths about herself. In this case she says Wanda can't handle all the power she's been accidentally given, which was hard to deny even before this movie.

We will know more about Agatha's backstory, but what we know so far is that the only humans she was seen killing were in self-defense, and it was because even her own mother would rather kill her than trust her. When she reveals herself to Wanda, she isn't nice to her, but she's the only person in the show who truly helps her by forcing her to confront the truth about herself and remember how this all started.

They may retcon her into being under the Darkhold's control when we next see her, but in the show itself, she seems to be what she says she is: someone who showed up in Westview because she sensed someone had pulled off this seemingly impossible spell, and tried to figure out how Wanda did it and the limits of her power (which explains killing the dog to see if Wanda could bring it back). She certainly didn't seem malevolent or crazy, certainly nothing like the way the Darkhold affected other people's minds, but again they might explain she had some way around it, or perhaps she was corrupted centuries ago and worked her way back.

If only it had been otherwise...

[gurkle]

But I see there is another thing that you consistently make. You are under the false assumption that the Darkhold in MoM instantly turns you into some cackling villain who wants to see the world burn when that is flat out not true. You then state that just because Agatha wasn't that way it is some inconsistency or that Agatha wasn't that bad or she found some way to resist it. Again that is not true at all because the Darkhold doesn't work that way in either WV or MoM.

Wanda wanted to see her kids again. That's hardly malevolent. Sinister Strange just wanted to be happy again and be reunited with Christine. Again that is hardly malevolent. As a matter of fact when Wanda entered Cthons temple and saw that is was built to honor her she still said that she doesn't care about all of that. She really just wanted to be with her kids again. Yet both were clearly under the influence of the book and did some terrible acts because of it.

This is fair, but apart from changing Wanda's entire personality, it focused her completely on one thing to the exclusion of everything else (including Vision, her brother, her parents...). I just don't think Agatha came off like that at all. She had a goal, to find out how Wanda did this, but she didn't come off as fixated; she could have fun, she actually did some good things, she seemed like a person where MoM Wanda was just a monomaniac.

We'll agree to disagree, because I just don't think anything in MoM follows logically from WandaVision, but that's not something I can prove or disprove.