"CHAOS Magic Woman!" Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff Appreciation 2022

[Cruelrain]

Eh, to be fair, yes, she was reading the Darkhold to gain knowledge, but the WandaVision end specifically hinted that she heard her children, and something clicked for her after that. Now we can argue all we want about how the trajectory chosen by Waldron and Raimi wasn't the best for her (I'd agree), but it's not like they took the ''children as a motivation'' out of thin air. That post-credit scene made it pretty much impossible to ignore her kids. I think they were always going to be her motivation, and that was not a bad thing in and of itself. The problem was always going to be the execution.

My one complaint about the transition between both projects is that while in WandaVision she hears her kids crying for help, in DSITMOM spoilers:

there is no sign that she believes they were endangered, unlike what some leaks had said. She just wants to be with her children from another universe, even though she KNOWS they already have a loving family there. You can explain her lack of kindness and empathy with the Darkhold, but still... what the hell happened with the children asking for help? Was that even her children? Was that the Darkhold playing tricks on her so she would peek into the multiverse? We don't know because the movie never tells exactly what happened after the post-credit scene. She's jut full evil next time we see her.

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Exactly all this,

spoilers:

she's just selfish but she's also being corrupted BUT, Agatha wasn't like that... she wanted power not like that They ignored that we though she would mess with multiverse because She literally hears her kids in danger calling for help, this is ignored here and instead she knows her kids are safe with another wanda and she just wants those kids...

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[CJStriker]

spoilers:

Wanda is corrupted by the Darkhold through out the movie and not the only one corrupted by dark magics, but because of that they have her go on a murder spree.

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spoilers:

She's corrupted. It's more of a 'deal with the devil' kind of scenario than 'possessed by an otherworldy force'. Chthon is mentioned but there isn't a larger 3rd party in play (yet) that is pushing Wanda to commit destruction. It's all in an effort to get her children back.

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Yeah it also doesn't come across like AD/HoM where she was clearly out of it either.

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spoilers:

I guess it's kinda like the lifeforce retcon in a way. There is an external force messing up her head, but it's not a sentient being possessing her like when Chthon does it. That's also how it is when people read the Darkhold in the comics. Except that in the comics they go more full-on crazy while in the MCU they just go "evil" and ruthless.

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spoilers:

So........The thing I am getting out of it at the very least and right now I am still gathering even if I will go see the movie, I likely will not right now or even start to consider it, I rather get more info. But it at the very lease sounds like a way to explain the bad behavoir and that it is a plague that effects all even Strange(s). It shows how the darkside of magic can be easy and dangerous to effect one no matter how strong or skill or powerful you are, that is how I am getting at it. I am only trying to find the explination here rather then the actions that come about it, cause it is threw that that the next part of the story and this one can be explained. It's bad don't get me wrong and so far all the critics of it over how Woman, Sexist tropies and Power have a place in the judging of this, the faults will always be on the creators that have to explain themselves for this. But getting back, it at the very least leads to while yea not being a good interpration at all with what the darkhold should be, not some book that acts like the plague, but that is what we got. It at the very leasts gives the beings of explinations to this and showing it effects even Strange(s) across the unvierses shows the darkness is not just Wanda centered but all are in dange of influence by it's magic. Honestly deal with the devil or not, it sounds more like it preys on your very inner weaknesses and fears to turn you into your worst knightmare. The ending at the castle alone by how it sounds is evidance enought of that. I really don't care what debates on Social media either will be, they can have a point time to time, but they are most and will always a toxic waste pool of flame wars and nonsense trolls towards what they are talking about until the next trend is happening, so I would not get my views from their. This sounds like a slow march after this but one that has possible lights even after what is sounding like a messy. A slow much to explain this and why and where it means to go from here. I think real debate over Wanda in this will be and should be level headed and dicussed while seeing where and why to where next, but all the while holding accounable the bad things the creators did and them having to take resonbliblity for these choices. Before I keep going to long, at the very least while what I am hearing is not Perfect, it sounds messy, bad and a bad sterotype that creators today should have gotten long ago, their is still reasonings in story behind it and how it effect the character, aka Wanda to now get threw it and the ending of the journey at the castle shows at least a good start to that, death of ones shelf even if no fully yourself of your previsous actions shows the commitment when fully back to yourself in then stopping a horror that is not just your own but effects many across the different universes. We have to see how this will play out, but this should NOT Stop Us from Love Wanda as an overall Character, this is just 1 interpriation while one of the most well known is not the only one or the most imporant one, 616 Wanda is that! We must remember that and keep showing our RIGHT to Love Our Scarlet Lady and not be forced to change cause a bad piece of media came around for a time to challenge that. Wanda is Challenge and like other characters have had to go threw in recently years with quesionable media, their fandoms Step-Up, figure it out and find the light threw it! That is the best I get out of this so far and how to figure it out and move from here, but NEVER Give Up your Love for who you love, that is your Freedom and Choice, no one should have the right to take that from you!

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[Drops Of Venus]

Exactly all this,

spoilers:

she's just selfish but she's also being corrupted BUT, Agatha wasn't like that... she wanted power not like that They ignored that we though she would mess with multiverse because She literally hears her kids in danger calling for help, this is ignored here and instead she knows her kids are safe with another wanda and she just wants those kids...

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Yeah, I really don't understand what the thought process here was. This apparent change in her motivation made her a lot less sympathetic in my eyes, and probably in the eyes of the general audience as well. I remember how there were theories about how Sam Raimi was probably the one who directed the post-credit scene of WV, but after that, I feel like it's safe to say he didn't. The man admitted he didn't even watch the show. lol

I wonder what Jac Schaeffer and Matt Shakman feel about this Wanda portrayal. Not that I think they would ever criticize the movie publicly. But I would be interested in hearing their take on how Wanda can return from this.

[Ravin' Ray]

From Kevin Wada: https://twitter.com/kevinwada/status...47552862605312

Quick little Wanda and Monica sketch.
Premiered on my Patreon Feb 2022.

[GenericUsername]

From Kevin Wada: https://twitter.com/kevinwada/status...47552862605312

Quick little Wanda and Monica sketch.
Premiered on my Patreon Feb 2022.

Wada is always on point.

[davetvs]

Yeah, I really don't understand what the thought process here was. This apparent change in her motivation made her a lot less sympathetic in my eyes, and probably in the eyes of the general audience as well. I remember how there were theories about how Sam Raimi was probably the one who directed the post-credit scene of WV, but after that, I feel like it's safe to say he didn't. The man admitted he didn't even watch the show. lol

I wonder what Jac Schaeffer and Matt Shakman feel about this Wanda portrayal. Not that I think they would ever criticize the movie publicly. But I would be interested in hearing their take on how Wanda can return from this.

spoilers:

Why does her motivation have to be sympathetic when the plot clearly outlines that she's under the influence, so to speak? She's inherently sympathetic because you've spent years watching and learning about her, and through those stories already know that this is a relatively young woman who in her short life has seen her country destroyed, her parents killed, her brother killed, accidentally killed people she was trying to save and caused an international incident in the process, was arrested and had to go on the run, killed her boyfriend to save the world except didn't, lost her friends/job when the Avengers disbanded, turned to dust, came back to life, resurrected her boyfriend/husband and "had children with him" only to have them all dissipate into nothingness. It makes perfect sense that she's at the end of her rope here, other comments trying to relegate it to "she's mad bc crazy hysterical mother" are being disingenuous to root their standard fanboy/fangirl criticisms in something more legitimate because as always, fanboys and fangirls are forever pissy when they don't get what they want. From the end of MoM they could easily go into Children's Crusade which I personally would love to see. I don't think Wanda needs to be redeemed because I don't think anything that happened was "her fault" in that way, but Children's Crusade could do that for the people who really need to see her as another generic hero with a heart of gold, or whatever. Instead of an incredibly traumatized person with access to godlike power trying desperately to change the circumstances of her unfortunate life and falling under the influence of negative/corrupting forces.

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[Kingdom X]

spoilers:

Why does her motivation have to be sympathetic when the plot clearly outlines that she's under the influence, so to speak? She's inherently sympathetic because you've spent years watching and learning about her, and through those stories already know that this is a relatively young woman who in her short life has seen her country destroyed, her parents killed, her brother killed, accidentally killed people she was trying to save and caused an international incident in the process, was arrested and had to go on the run, killed her boyfriend to save the world except didn't, lost her friends/job when the Avengers disbanded, turned to dust, came back to life, resurrected her boyfriend/husband and "had children with him" only to have them all dissipate into nothingness. It makes perfect sense that she's at the end of her rope here, other comments trying to relegate it to "she's mad bc crazy hysterical mother" are being disingenuous to root their standard fanboy/fangirl criticisms in something more legitimate because as always, fanboys and fangirls are forever pissy when they don't get what they want. From the end of MoM they could easily go into Children's Crusade which I personally would love to see. I don't think Wanda needs to be redeemed because I don't think anything that happened was "her fault" in that way, but Children's Crusade could do that for the people who really need to see her as another generic hero with a heart of gold, or whatever. Instead of an incredibly traumatized person with access to godlike power trying desperately to change the circumstances of her unfortunate life and falling under the influence of negative/corrupting forces.

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spoilers:

My main problem with the “it was the Darkhold!” reasoning is that it completely strips the character of agency. WandaVision provided as with this nuanced look at trauma and grief, and how that might cause you to act out while this went hard into “female hysteria” territory. I also feel like they’ve essentially put MCU into the same mess that comics Wanda has been in for the past 15+ years. Now we have a character who did a lot of unforgivable things while under a bout of crazy and influence by an outside magical force. Every time they try to present her as heroic or even sympathetic there is gonna be this cloud of her horrible actions over her even if she has an excuse with the Darkhold. Alternatively they can’t keep her as a villain or even as an anti-hero because again she had ZERO agency in that arc.

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[davetvs]

spoilers:

My main problem with the “it was the Darkhold!” reasoning is that it completely strips the character of agency. WandaVision provided as with this nuanced look at trauma and grief, and how that might cause you to act out while this went hard into “female hysteria” territory. I also feel like they’ve essentially put MCU into the same mess that comics Wanda has been in for the past 15+ years. Now we have a character who did a lot of unforgivable things while under a bout of crazy and influence by an outside magical force. Every time they try to present her as heroic or even sympathetic there is gonna be this cloud of her horrible actions over her even if she has an excuse with the Darkhold. Alternatively they can’t keep her as a villain or even as an anti-hero because again she had ZERO agency in that arc.

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spoilers:

I guess it depends on whether or not you have a problem with Wanda being a character who while still a hero, has done unforgivable things that can't be wished away. I don't; I loved Avengers Disassembled and House of M so those elements of her characterization don't bother me at all. I know that's not a popular opinion here, but she's still a hero the same way Winter Soldier still is even though he's done wild **** too, and not always of his own volition. I like that Wanda is messy and sometimes impetuous, it makes her more realistic (to me) and embodies the quote from the Professor: "Just because someone stumbles and loses their way, doesn't mean they are lost forever." YMMV but I don't consider it an example of female hysteria because the Darkhold corrupts everything and everyone to some extent, including multiple Dr. Stranges. All things considered I think it's obvious that Marvel still considers the character a hero.

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[GenericUsername]

spoilers:

In universe there are people that were controlled or under the influence of the Darkhold who didn't go on murdering sprees. In rl people have hard ass lives that don't go on murder sprees. And in this very movie it's framed more for horror and with very little emotion until the end. People can have criticisms because we didn't like it like you did. And here you are trying to pass personal judgment on people for not liking a story the same way you did. You need to accept different opinions without painting it as something wrong with the fandom. Especially when there are plenty of reviews out there that also didn't like the script. Well here is something profound. This story nor the ones it's based on really pushed Wanda's character forward. It's motivation for her is nothing more than her own selfish want. She's used as a plot device in the same way as those stories. Not at all a fully rounded character. She's a husk, not just because of the Darkhold, but also because they are having her cause more people pain because of her lost family before finally realizing what she's done before even being broken free from the book. She just retreads the same lesson she learned in WandaVision. Caused pain, realizes it, stops. And that's not even getting into how this version already saw the book corrupt Agatha. It didn't do as bad a job with Agatha, but she read the book knowing what it does. Comics Wanda didn't have that advantage. I also don't see how they do TCC when no one is gonna want to go looking for her. Her kids are gone, they barely even mention Vision, she traumatized alt earth Billy and Tommy. This movie does nothing but prove AD and HoM were mistakes and a detriment to the growth of this character. And reduce what once a female heroine with personal wants, hobbies and life into a womins is baby crazy trope. It's gross

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[davetvs]

spoilers:

In universe there are people that were controlled or under the influence of the Darkhold who didn't go on murdering sprees. In rl people have hard ass lives that don't go on murder sprees. And in this very movie it's framed more for horror and with very little emotion until the end. People can have criticisms because we didn't like it like you did. And here you are trying to pass personal judgment on people for not liking a story the same way you did. You need to accept different opinions without painting it as something wrong with the fandom. Especially when there are plenty of reviews out there that also didn't like the script. Well here is something profound. This story nor the ones it's based on really pushed Wanda's character forward. It's motivation for her is nothing more than her own selfish want. She's used as a plot device in the same way as those stories. Not at all a fully rounded character. She's a husk, not just because of the Darkhold, but also because they are having her cause more people pain because of her lost family before finally realizing what she's done before even being broken free from the book. She just retreads the same lesson she learned in WandaVision. Caused pain, realizes it, stops. And that's not even getting into how this version already saw the book corrupt Agatha. It didn't do as bad a job with Agatha, but she read the book knowing what it does. Comics Wanda didn't have that advantage. I also don't see how they do TCC when no one is gonna want to go looking for her. Her kids are gone, they barely even mention Vision, she traumatized alt earth Billy and Tommy. This movie does nothing but prove AD and HoM were mistakes and a detriment to the growth of this character. And reduce what once a female heroine with personal wants, hobbies and life into a womins is baby crazy trope. It's gross

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No offense because I don't think this is you (at least I don't remember you doing this), but part of the We Hate Everything contingent of fans who stay parked in this thread have personally attacked other members for not hating MCU Wanda and accused us of being fake fans who happily accept whatever we're force-fed. What's the difference? I don't begrudge anyone their dislike of anything, I just think "I had problems with the script and/or direction" and "I didn't get the version of Wanda I personally wanted to see, therefore it sucked" are on different ends of the spectrum of validity. There are several ways they can do TCC. The versions of Billy and Tommy from Universe 838 are not necessarily the versions of Billy and Tommy who would be in YA, IIRC Wanda saw several universes in which they were alive and well (I think? I've only seen the movie once so far.) America can go and get whichever versions she wants to get. 838 Wanda clearly felt sympathy for MCU Wanda too so it's possible while the twins are growing up their attitudes toward "the witch" soften. Something can happen to 838 Wanda and they go to seek her out to help, etc. There are a ton of things they could do, it's already been reported that Elizabeth Olsen signed on to do more so it's not like her story is done. I'm not trying to get anyone who doesn't like it to like it, I'm just saying that you don't know where the story is going from here so all of the doom and gloom is not necessary. Especially when you take into account that, again, the MCU is an alternate universe and can do whatever it wants with its characters. A lot of people come in here acting personally affronted because they don't get to watch their exact preferences play out on screen and it's incredibly childish to read.

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[GenericUsername]

spoilers:

No offense because I don't think this is you (at least I don't remember you doing this), but part of the We Hate Everything contingent of fans who stay parked in this thread have personally attacked other members for not hating MCU Wanda and accused us of being fake fans who happily accept whatever we're force-fed. What's the difference? I don't begrudge anyone their dislike of anything, I just think "I had problems with the script and/or direction" and "I didn't get the version of Wanda I personally wanted to see, therefore it sucked" are on different ends of the spectrum of validity. There are several ways they can do TCC. The versions of Billy and Tommy from Universe 838 are not necessarily the versions of Billy and Tommy who would be in YA, IIRC Wanda saw several universes in which they were alive and well (I think? I've only seen the movie once so far.) America can go and get whichever versions she wants to get. 838 Wanda clearly felt sympathy for MCU Wanda too so it's possible while the twins are growing up their attitudes toward "the witch" soften. Something can happen to 838 Wanda and they go to seek her out to help, etc. There are a ton of things they could do, it's already been reported that Elizabeth Olsen signed on to do more so it's not like her story is done. I'm not trying to get anyone who doesn't like it to like it, I'm just saying that you don't know where the story is going from here so all of the doom and gloom is not necessary. Especially when you take into account that, again, the MCU is an alternate universe and can do whatever it wants with its characters. A lot of people come in here acting personally affronted because they don't get to watch their exact preferences play out on screen and it's incredibly childish to read.

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Those people that resorted to personal attacks were suspended, so it's probably not wise to continue the trend.

I think Wanda's possible next appearance could be Agatha's show.

[Panic]

I saw DSitMoM the other day. I enjoyed it for the most part, and I thought Elizabeth Olsen was the stand out, but spoilers:

I thought her motivations sprung from bad writing rather than anything believable. Once you throw in the multiverse concept I find it difficult to believe that she wouldn't be able to find a universe where the twins are alive but her doppelganger was dead. And why did she need to kill America Chavez for her power rather than get her to simply take her to a universe with the twins in it? The film didn't so much explain that as lampshade it as far as I can remember. The Darkhold didn't make her just evil, it made her stupid, too. How did she think she could go into another variant's home, kill her and take her kids and everything would be good? The performances in this film were good, the writing was bad, imo.

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[davetvs]

I saw DSitMoM the other day. I enjoyed it for the most part, and I thought Elizabeth Olsen was the stand out, but spoilers:

I thought her motivations sprung from bad writing rather than anything believable. Once you throw in the multiverse concept I find it difficult to believe that she wouldn't be able to find a universe where the twins are alive but her doppelganger was dead. And why did she need to kill America Chavez for her power rather than get her to simply take her to a universe with the twins in it? The film didn't so much explain that as lampshade it as far as I can remember. The Darkhold didn't make her just evil, it made her stupid, too. How did she think she could go into another variant's home, kill her and take her kids and everything would be good? The performances in this film were good, the writing was bad, imo.

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spoilers:

This was explained; Strange asked her outright. She said she wanted the power for herself so she could use the multiverse to fix whatever problem she or the twins could run into (she said if they got sick, there could be a cure somewhere in a different universe and she wanted to make sure she could just go get it and never lose them again.)

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[Panic]

spoilers:

Yes, I remember now, I simply don't think it's much of a justification. I mean, if you could get America to take you to another universe once, you should be able to do it again.

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[davetvs]

spoilers:

Yes, I remember now, I simply don't think it's much of a justification. I mean, if you could get America to take you to another universe once, you should be able to do it again.

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spoilers:

And if she says no? Or dies? Or loses her powers somehow? Not saying it's a perfect justification but "America will just do whatever I want whenever I ask her to" doesn't make a lot of sense.

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