IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2022

[Thor-El]

Well that is one of the reasons Namor was never my favorite "hero". Thor is not human either, he is the prince of another realm but he knows better not to ally himself with evil. I know Thor doesn't have the same problem because his realm is not constantly threatened by surface dwellers. A better comparison than Thor is Black Panther who also has been shown dealing with the world protecting his people without allying himself with evil.

The Marvel Universe is a mirror of the real world where there are people that cheer for leaders that just care about their well being and their base (Doom and sometimes Namor) and some think that those are cool and edgy and alpha leaders because they don't give a damn about what happens to the rest of the world as long as "their people" are protected and taken well care of. Newsflash, we are all in the same planet and the suffering of one group will sooner or later touch the others.

Doom is an evil entity and even if Namor has some noble but stupid idea he can ally himself with an evil entity and not have to pay the price time and time again has proven in those same stories that decision will bite him in the ass. So he should be smart enough to know by now. I like that he is with the Avengers much more than him being with Doom. At least this is a people with genuine good intentions and this is the right place for a smart Namor that trully wants to do good for his people. You ally yourself with good not with evil!

A Namor that had the wisdom to choose the right side during WW2 should recognize this and trace the similarities with Doom. I can forgive a one time mistake but a repeated offense doesn't paints the character in a good light.

[Doombot]

I think that Namor, at some level, sees most of humanity as a threat. So aligning himself with Doom, whenever it is in his interest, isn't as big of a deal to Namor as it would be to us, to him Doom is just another human to deal with. Namor knows when he can and can't rely on Doom, just as he knows when he can and cannot rely on Captain America. To Namor they are two sides of the same coin. In global politics, you must deal with dictators as much as you must deal with democratically elected Prime Ministers and Presidents. For us as readers of fantasy fiction stories, it's easy to say this character is "evil" and this one is a "hero", but for Namor living in the reality of the MU, he is the leader of a non-human race of beings that are constantly threatened by humanity no matter what their motives may be. Pakistan, India or China may not have anything against Atlantis, but they are still truly gigantic threats to the safety and security of his people, as the sheer amount of pollution that these countries produce and are by far the bigger threat to Namor than anything Dr. Doom could ever dream of doing. Captain America or Iron Man may yell at Namor for not rejecting Dr. Doom because he sent a robot to attack the Baxter Building the other week, meanwhile India dumped 120 million tons of plastic waste on Atlanteans' heads last year.

Thor is a different type character. He can be a true mythic hero. He's actually sworn to protect humanity, and depending on which version of their mythos you want to look at, they either created or were created by humans.

I love the BP, but T'challa can sit in his palace and be superior and talk about the morality of good and evil, but he's in a tiny isolated, land-locked nation and has a bigger stick than all his neighbours combined. Namor on the other hand has to deal with the reality that all of humanity is in a constant, daily war with the oceans themselves, and his people are right in the middle of it, with humans seeing Atlanteans as alien and hostile or invisible and irrelevant. All this and humans expect Namor to fight for them when they call, but when he defends his own people, humanity gasps, clutches their pearls and paint him as an unstable villain.

[Thor-El]

Perhaps I don't know the character of Dr. Doom that well. But can anyone tell me a couple examples where the outcome of Namor's alliance with Doom resulted in any benefit for Namor's people in the end? Or is everything just to say woooo he is so edgy, he dances with the devil! LOL And nothing ever gets worked in stories to make sense of those alliances regarding what his people are winning by it. Is not like Dr. Doom is Prime Minister of a big powerful nation in the world with lots of influence. He is a villain that has retreated to a tiny land in Europe that still looks trapped in the past. So I really fail to see the benefit to Atlantis. An alliance with Wakanda with its riches and advances seem more beneficial to his people than with a villain that rules from a medieval castle with robot servants that still look like 60s technology.

I really detest gray characters like Punisher, Wolverine and even Conan. Sub-mariner, mostly because my real introduction was the cartoons when I was really young, I always have a soft spot for the character but that was a very heroic Sub-mariner were the anti-hero part was not presented so much. I honestly was extremely surprised when I started reading his Golden Age origins by the amount of carnage his character creates in civilization. Stan Lee really took all that and tuned it way down at least once he found Atlantis, although Everett had already done it as the character grew up in the Golden Age.

There was a time when characters like the Punisher and Wolverine were not cheered and people would not identify with them. Maybe the realities we have been living in recent years will make people go back to look for heroes with a softer core and more stable characters. Or maybe people always need characters to love and hate like Namor.

[ImperiusWrecked]

In Super Villain Team Up (1975) #13, Doom had promised Namor to help his people, he fulfills that oath and when he asks Namor of his gratitude Namor reminds him that Doom only did what was promised to him and thus he has no reason to indulge him with more praise. Namor's team up with Doom ended and Namor walks away.

doom supervillain team up 1.jpg

namor and doom super villain team up.jpg

Doom goes into Hell to rescue Namor in Namor: The First Mutant yes Doom had utlerior motives aka wanting Namor to owe him a debt, but also it was completely his own idea to go and he didn't have to go. Also as of yet Doom has never called Namor on that debt and the way Marvel hasn't thrown them together in another comic makes me think it won't ever happen.



Other things Doom has done as an ally with Namor was offer him a secure base after the 2007 Sub-Mariner series, of course another plot point that is ignored. Basically Doom and Namor are Kings who work together, they look out for their own people and understand the other is only in this alliance for as long as it is favorable to their people. Doom is a complex character just like Namor and he has his own sense of honor and personal code just like Namor.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I think that Namor, at some level, sees most of humanity as a threat. So aligning himself with Doom, whenever it is in his interest, isn't as big of a deal to Namor as it would be to us, to him Doom is just another human to deal with. Namor knows when he can and can't rely on Doom, just as he knows when he can and cannot rely on Captain America. To Namor they are two sides of the same coin. In global politics, you must deal with dictators as much as you must deal with democratically elected Prime Ministers and Presidents. For us as readers of fantasy fiction stories, it's easy to say this character is "evil" and this one is a "hero", but for Namor living in the reality of the MU, he is the leader of a non-human race of beings that are constantly threatened by humanity no matter what their motives may be. Pakistan, India or China may not have anything against Atlantis, but they are still truly gigantic threats to the safety and security of his people, as the sheer amount of pollution by these countries produce and are by far the bigger threat to Namor than anything Dr. Doom could ever dream of doing. Captain America or Iron Man may yell at Namor for not rejecting Dr. Doom because he sent a robot to attack the Baxter Building the other week, meanwhile India dumped 120 million tons of plastic waste on Atlanteans' heads last year.

Thor is a different type character. He can be a true mythic hero. He's actually sworn to protect humanity, and depending on which version of their mythos you want to look at, they either created or were created by humans.

I love the BP, but T'challa can sit in his palace and be superior and talk about the morality of good and evil, but he's in a tiny isolated, land-locked nation and has a bigger stick than all his neighbours combined. Namor on the other hand has to deal with the reality that all of humanity is in a constant, daily war with the oceans themselves, and his people are right in the middle of it, with humans seeing Atlanteans as alien and hostile or invisible and irrelevant. All this and humans expect Namor to fight for them when they call, but when he defends his own people, humanity gasps, clutches their pearls and paint him as an unstable villain.

Yes! YES! That is why my favorite Namor quote is this:



the newest one from Atlantis Attacks is such a good quote too!

[Doombot]

Perhaps I don't know the character of Dr. Doom that well. But can anyone tell me a couple examples where the outcome of Namor's alliance with Doom resulted in any benefit for Namor's people in the end? Or is everything just to say woooo he is so edgy, he dances with the devil! LOL And nothing ever gets worked in stories to make sense of those alliances regarding what his people are winning by it. Is not like Dr. Doom is Prime Minister of a big powerful nation in the world with lots of influence. He is a villain that has retreated to a tiny land in Europe that still looks trapped in the past. So I really fail to see the benefit to Atlantis. An alliance with Wakanda with its riches and advances seem more beneficial to his people than with a villain that rules from a medieval castle with robot servants that still look like 60s technology.

I really detest gray characters like Punisher, Wolverine and even Conan. Sub-mariner, mostly because my real introduction was the cartoons when I was really young, I always have a soft spot for the character but that was a very heroic Sub-mariner were the anti-hero part was not presented so much. I honestly was extremely surprised when I started reading his Golden Age origins by the amount of carnage his character creates in civilization. Stan Lee really took all that and tuned it way down at least once he found Atlantis, although Everett had already done it as the character grew up in the Golden Age.

There was a time when characters like the Punisher and Wolverine were not cheered and people would not identify with them. Maybe the realities we have been living in recent years will make people go back to look for heroes with a softer core and more stable characters. Or maybe people always need characters to love and hate like Namor.

Some of this stems from what any person might mean when they say "anti-hero". Perhaps you see 90's edgelord characters like Punisher, Wolverine or Ghost Rider when you hear "anti-hero", but I don't think Namor has ever been an edgy character. Those 90's iconic edgy characters are "anti-hero" in the most technical terms maybe, but it was mostly about violence and "bad ass-ness". The mainstream comicbook version of a violent action or gore flick. While I do like Wolverine as a character, I hardly see him as a hero, even an anti-hero. He certainly shouldn't be around children or young teens (like the X-men) he's an unstable, violent, mass murderer. He works better as a tragic loner. Namor's type of anti-heroism comes from the fact he's not one of "us" and will not always see things from our perspective. His motives come from somewhere beyond us. His justice may not always be our justice. It may even be in direct opposition.

The problem with teaming up with Doom, whatever Namor's motives may be in any situation, is that Dr. Doom is always a super-villain and therefore will always lose. He has to or the stories don't work. But in-universe, Doom and Namor may have goals that align or overlap, and there is also the fact they are both Kings and often seen as untrustworthy to the world at large. Namor may feel, that while he may not be able to ever truly trust him, Victor may be one of the few people in the world who can understand Namor on some level.

Also, just to geek-out about Doom a bit. Victor didn't retreat to the tiny nation of Latveria, it was his home, it's where he's from. And while it may look quaint to modern Western people, that's how Doom wants it. Everything about Doom and Latveria is two-sided. He wants his people to be able to live their lives as they always have, they can live an older rural style life or go to university and be modern, as long as they are safe and happy. Because Doom commands it to be so. They can be free and content as long as they understand Doom commands them to be free and content. Doom's armor is meant to look medieval, intimidating, complete with tunic and cowl, but it's full of terrifying technology beyond most people's comprehension. Castle Doom is the same, meant to look medieval, picturesque even, but it is probably one of the best defended and most high-tech places on Earth. Everything in Doom's life is a mask, and not just the one on his face.

[Oberon]

I'm enjoying this conversation. I don't have much to add.

Some of Namor's earlier grey areas, with Doom, like the referenced area of mid '70s Super Villain Team Up, were favorite stories of mine.

[Thor-El]

Dr. Doom originally by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby was supposed to be the antithesis of a good leader and a totalitarian.






In a Universe where there is a Captain America that stands for the ideals of democracy its really easy to see a character in association with Dr. Doom as a villain and not very heroic to a lot of fans. If it was me writing I would only bring Dr. Doom as an enemy of Namor, not an ally. I'd rather ally him with Wakanda and keep him in the Avengers as a way to protect Atlantis using his influence within that group.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Namor has enough Enemies and very few actual Allies. Steve Rogers may pay lip service and say he will help Atlanteans and sometimes helps them, in the end if the Atlanteans fight the humans Steve will side with the humans and try to stop them even if they are fighting for their future/not wanting to be poisoned to death etc. The Avengers are not the Atlanteans friends.

Doom, like Namor, is a protector of his people first.

As for Doom, characters change and evolve over time, Thor, Doom, Captain America, Namor, etc. they have the core of who they were or whatever they started out with but only viewing characters through a lens of one era is imo very limiting when these characters have very long and rich histories. Doom has had such growth and evolvement that anyone just taking him back to his "evil roots" is actually doing a massive disservice to the character (such as Dan Slott's poor Doom writing in Fantastic Four), Hickman did so much with characters and added to them that it would be criminal to discount that but to each their own.

In the end while I love Doom as a character, this is a Namor appreciation thread, so the subject of Namor and Doom is very interesting and yes I would be the first one in line to throw my money at Marvel if we ever had another team up between them, Namor and Doom having a kinship or understanding is not so far fetched because even within their own communities, Atlanteans and Latverains, they are outcasts. Namor having human skin tone not blue, and Doom being a Romani man who faces racial discrimination. They have more in common than Steve and Namor, however the great thing about Namor's character is how versitle he can be. He can be friends with Doom and Captain America because he walks the line in the middle.

[Doombot]

Oh I would never say Doom was a good person, he's most definitely a villain, but he's definitely more complex than he was in the Stan & Jack days. But while Doom is certainly a villain, and say, Captain America is the shining hero, Namor is as we were talking about: a classic (not 90s style) Anti-Hero. He doesn't fit in other categories. Right from the Golden Age he was more than that. He's angry, he's conflicted, he's noble and kind hearted, temperamental and arrogant, he's torn between worlds, between duty, honour, passion, and vengeful rage. He's all those thing we love about him and more. It's what makes him so interesting to explore.

I get what you're saying Thor-El, if Namor is such a noble hero, he could never even stand being in the same room as someone like Doom. But Namor, like real people, is more complex than that. It's what has always drawn me to the character. Even in the Stan & Jack days, Namor attacked humans and kidnapped pretty blondes while yelling arrogant justifications at everyone.

[Thor-El]

Namor has enough Enemies and very few actual Allies. Steve Rogers may pay lip service and say he will help Atlanteans and sometimes helps them, in the end if the Atlanteans fight the humans Steve will side with the humans and try to stop them even if they are fighting for their future/not wanting to be poisoned to death etc. The Avengers are not the Atlanteans friends.

Doom, like Namor, is a protector of his people first.

As for Doom, characters change and evolve over time, Thor, Doom, Captain America, Namor, etc. they have the core of who they were or whatever they started out with but only viewing characters through a lens of one era is imo very limiting when these characters have very long and rich histories. Doom has had such growth and evolvement that anyone just taking him back to his "evil roots" is actually doing a massive disservice to the character (such as Dan Slott's poor Doom writing in Fantastic Four), Hickman did so much with characters and added to them that it would be criminal to discount that but to each their own.

In the end while I love Doom as a character, this is a Namor appreciation thread, so the subject of Namor and Doom is very interesting and yes I would be the first one in line to throw my money at Marvel if we ever had another team up between them, Namor and Doom having a kinship or understanding is not so far fetched because even within their own communities, Atlanteans and Latverains, they are outcasts. Namor having human skin tone not blue, and Doom being a Romani man who faces racial discrimination. They have more in common than Steve and Namor, however the great thing about Namor's character is how versitle he can be. He can be friends with Doom and Captain America because he walks the line in the middle.

Yep, I see much growth and evolvement from his "evil roots".

[ImperiusWrecked]

Yep, I see much growth and evolvement from his "evil roots".

If you are going to engage in bad faith discussion then I simply won't respond.

You asked why fans like Doom when you saw him as still this 60s figure of evil bad guy. You admit you haven't read the comics. I try to give a short reply because I don't want to talk about Doom on a board meant for Namor discussion when I usually lurk around the Doom thread. Pulling out random panels to prove a point rather than take the whole entirety of the characters history in discussion when talking about why fans would want to see another Namor and Doom team up seems like bad faith discussion to me. If you don't like Doom that's fine. I'm not here to convert people into liking the character, I love him because he is interesting to read about and I would rather read a morally gray interesting character than a character who sees things in black and white. Doom's character is not a singular arc, the character moves in circles because of the nature of comics, he is more "good" leaning at times and more "bad" leaning at other times depending on the view point.

I could go and pull out every single time that shows Namor as a remorseless killer/attacker and just say: oh wow what a terrible character, look at how horrible this is. I don't because that isn't all he is and it's unfair to shove Namor into a singular role of good or bad when his character is not like that at all.

[Thor-El]

If you are going to engage in bad faith discussion then I simply won't respond.

You asked why fans like Doom when you saw him as still this 60s figure of evil bad guy. You admit you haven't read the comics. I try to give a short reply because I don't want to talk about Doom on a board meant for Namor discussion when I usually lurk around the Doom thread. Pulling out random panels to prove a point rather than take the whole entirety of the characters history in discussion when talking about why fans would want to see another Namor and Doom team up seems like bad faith discussion to me. If you don't like Doom that's fine. I'm not here to convert people into liking the character, I love him because he is interesting to read about and I would rather read a morally gray interesting character than a character who sees things in black and white. Doom's character is not a singular arc, the character moves in circles because of the nature of comics, he is more "good" leaning at times and more "bad" leaning at other times depending on the view point.

I could go and pull out every single time that shows Namor as a remorseless killer/attacker and just say: oh wow what a terrible character, look at how horrible this is. I don't because that isn't all he is and it's unfair to shove Namor into a singular role of good or bad when his character is not like that at all.

Jesus Christ! Get some therapy lady! I'm out of here!

[Doombot]

Well, that's a shame. I thought it was an interesting discussion.

[K7P5V]

I'm enjoying this conversation. I don't have much to add.

Some of Namor's earlier grey areas, with Doom, like the referenced area of mid '70s Super Villain Team Up, were favorite stories of mine.

Me too. It's always great when they team-up (IMHO):

Well, that's a shame. I thought it was an interesting discussion.

Indeed. Sad it won't be continuing...