IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2022

[Reviresco]

Wait, what? What do you mean anymore? When did we ever get Namor stories that were just in the ocean away from the superheroes of the surface? Even during the Silver Age and 90's run when we did get underwater stories, Namor is always dragged back to surface stories.

There's a reason the concept of Atlantis, where it is, what it looks like, who lives there are all kind of vague and nebulous, it's because we never get to spend any amount of time there.

I have nothing against Namor having relationships with surface women, it's that it's way past time we get relationships with characters that actually live in Namor's world. Also, I have no problem with Namor being polyamorous, I'm quite sure he is. I always would mind him having, not just multiple relationships, but multiple wives. He's the ruler of an ancient undersea empire, he could have many wives, even a harem, and it wouldn't be out of character. I'm also sure Namor would love every one of them.

Yes he would!

We've gotten arcs that stayed underwater, like Stan Lee's the Quest and the Harras and Lee Suma-Ket arc. Roy Thomas would do stories underwater, but it was definitely interspersed with forays on the surface world. Alot of the DeMateis mini-series was underwater, but it was all motivated by an airbreather. But yes, Marvel definitely believes that Namor HAS to mostly interact with the surface world or readers won't be interested. Which, IMO, is entirely bogus.

I didn't think about that, but that's true. We don't spend enough time in Atlantis to get any details.

But you have to understand that Namor is also the "fish out of water" amongst his own people. It's kind of central to who he is as a character. He doesn't fit in anywhere. You can explore this concept with him regardless of the location of the story.

This! That's why I've said, the MCU Namor isn't going to be Namor if he isn't bi-racial, and the perpetual outsider.

[Reviresco]

LMAO. oh my god. This looks like they just reused the Namor head mold for Black Adam, like legit looks almost the same.

Yep. Geoff Johns reused alot of Namor for Black Adam. ;p

I don't know what is the explanation for the pointy ears?

[Reviresco]

Namor does practice Polyamory, it's canon that he is polyamorous. However Namor above all else does whatever his current partner (or partners) are comfortable with, with Dorma it was a monogamous relationship, with Emma it was sex based, and with others it was more open. No one is saying Namor can't be polyamorous. I myself headcanon Namor to be Polyamorous and Pansexual with a preference towards seeking long term relationships with women. Namor is a sensual and sexually confident being without the toxic masculinity often associated with these types of characters. He knows he is admired/wanted/sought after by many people and he is arrogant. Namor certainly has affections for surface women as much as sea women. So I don't know why you are implying I don't understand what polyamory means. I know you love Namor/Sue as a ship and that's your preference. I do think Namor did have a crush/obsession with Susan in the early days of the Fantastic Four however it's clear he has moved on several times as well as Susan having made her choice long ago. There are many AU's depicting what would have happened if Namor and Sue had gotten together so it's not like it hasn't been explored.

That's a good point. Though, there's a difference between people he is in a relationship with and people he wants to be in a relationship with. With the later, he'll recognize the line, but tread awful close to it and that can be uncomfortable for Sue and Emma.

I think it's clear that Namor is a Captain Kirk pansexual.

Uncanny X-Men (1963) 534.1 - Only Namor has the ability to make the earth move. And he reserves that privilege for one woman at a time. Unless they have experimental friends.

Ah, Gillen strikes again. I really wish we'd gotten his Namor book back in 2010.

Bucky Barnes: Winter Soldier (2014) #1 - I am not single. Well presently there are four. Brenda is my primary. Primary partner. Ulalume, Francis*, and China. I'm also seeing from time to time.
*note: Francis is the male version. The female version of the name is Frances or Francesca.

That Winter Soldier book was so trippy ... I don't know if the whole thing was real or a Bucky fever dream. Namor and drugs ....

Namor knows he is being used by Sersi, he is a grown man and he is fine with it, just as he continues to team up with Doom even though he knows it won't end well. Sometimes Namor weighs out the risks vs the reward and finds it acceptable. It's comics, so like both characters using each other to further their plots is to be expected in some way especially when its presented in an "sleeping with the enemy" writing trope. Rev's assessment isn't wrong imo.

I do think that Atlanteans should not be judged by human standards when it comes to different types of romantic/platonic bonds, the concept of gender and sexual identity etc. Like they are an advanced and non surface human based people, things should be different. The base in greek mythology is also an interesting addition to these concepts etc.

I agree. You only have to look at all the sea creatures myths and legends to see that the Atlanteans have different ideas about relationships and sex then most surface breathers.

As for Susan, well the issue I have is what Rev pointed out, even if they both had/still have some feelings for the other it's very clear that Susan uses Namor in a way that will benefit her, the surface world, and the Fantastic Four with little to no regard for Namor's happiness, the well being of the Atlanteans, nor care for Atlantis. The Undersea World will always come second to Sue after her world, and the fact that she is canon married, and nothing in Marvel will ever break that up, then it's in very poor taste and very poor character for her to reciprocate in any way feelings for Namor. Especially if it is without the consent of an open marriage arrangement with Reed, polyamory means consent and understanding on all who are involved or affected, otherwise it's just called cheating. I can't tell you how many times I've seen fans who haven't read the comics call Susan a cheater and many other derogatory names while praising Namor for "cucking" Reed. This and many other factors, including the fact that Namor is literally r/ped by Llyra wearing Susan's form when she slept with him without his consent and he was ready to kill her when Sue stopped him, is why I don't support the ship and have zero desire to see it again in any capacity. However it's fine because fans can headcanon what they they like and fanfiction is always great for exploring stories Marvel won't tell.

It's very frustrating to see fans online constantly using AU panels or comic panels that are taken out of context of the comic to prove Sue cheated on Reed with Namor and yet the one time it appeared she had before it was revealed it was Llyra is never talked about.

Sue and Namor's relationship does result in a lot of name calling for both characters by the casual fan. I get annoyed at people that trash Namor as homebreaker, when there was literally no home to break when Namor met Sue. She wasn't married to Reed, and the guy wasn't committing. Meanwhile, Namor wanted to marry Sue from the beginning!

I think if you compare the Namor and Dianne Arliss Newell relationship and the Namor and Sue relationship, you'd understand my frustration with the latter. Granted, I don't think Namor and Dianne's relationship was as ... intense as Namor and Sue, but there was definitely an attraction. Anyway, you don't see Namor repeatedly trying to woo Dianne away from Walter Newell, like with Sue and Reed. But then again, Dianne appears to have shut that door FIRMLY and rarely asks Namor for anything. This is not the case with Sue. Granted, Dianne and Walter have never carried a book, much less one as long lived and successful as the FF. ; p

Rev I know you've been a Namor fan for a long time & actually I have been looking to see if there are any old internet boards/discussion places where fans might have discussed Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #50, aka the fake out Sue/Namor issue. I wanted to see what fan reaction was like in that era, did people really believe that Susan had finally slept with Namor? What did people who read it as it came out think of that issue? I've been trying to see if there were any old fansites or articles that might have covered this subject.

Not that I know of. That issue came out when the Internet was in its infancy. I'm not sure I even had a computer then. LOL! I do remember being shocked, but yeah, it was believable the way it was written. I mean, as far as the characters knew, Reed was dead.

There was an old FF site that might have had some discussion, years afterwards, about the issue, but they shut down. Iron Maiden would know the name, if you wanted to try the Way Back Machine.

[Reviresco]

I guess I don't see it that way. I don't see why Namor should have been absent of Civil War.

Namor didn't want to have anything to do with the Old Atlant.s but they were discovered by the FF and science people, it seemed like someone needed to move forward with that discovery.

A lot to discuss, especially about Hickman's Old Atlantis arc ... but it is far too late tonite. Hopefully can chat tomorrow.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I guess I don't see it that way. I don't see why Namor should have been absent of Civil War.
Namor didn't want to have anything to do with the Old Atlant.s but they were discovered by the FF and science people, it seemed like someone needed to move forward with that discovery.
These are all plot twists or mechanisms to advance the story, and I think you, or maybe most of you
just want Namor to stay in the ocean away from the world of super heroes and what involves them.
Namor just isn't that interesting that way, anymore.

Isn't the high point of Namor since the '40s how he interacted with the topside world. What he did in his battles against the Android Torch, then the WW 2 effort with the Invaders.
Wasn't some amount of time spent with the idea (retcon via Invaders) that Namor needed to make that his and other Atlanteans part of that? I remember their ships and technology in some Invaders stories.

To me Namor is most interesting when he is the fish out of water. I know I've talked about how I loved his older Astonish and stories set in the water, but it needs more balance with above.

I only mention Diane, et al, because some of you don't really want him with surface women, preferring to bring Dorma back from the dead.
Admittedly I've liked this idea, but let's tie this up.
Namor can't seem to achieve a regular book under any of the things done before. Yes he seems to never have the right writer.

Yes, yes, he was savaged as a character almost as badly as Wanda was with AD and H of M -by the interactions and stories with Black Panther.
But he only seems to work as this antagonist.
He still has a better chance of being more interesting or necessary with being on a team or better guest appearances in Yes, FF.
A few posts back, some were listing all these characters from so many years ago as potential supporting characters and I thought who of a hopeful reading audience would remember all them and have time for their placement?
Good luck, I give up. polysensual only means I can care and relate to anyone in a sensual way. It is what most modern / Neo Pagans are like. A gentling of men on some terms. It has nothing for this dialog other than personal, as I just didn't think some of you understand polyamory, truly.
My personal hero is Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, who wrote of Free Love and the emancipation of women, and is of course the more or less Grandmother of
Frankenstein.

1 - Let's put ourselves in Namor's wings for a moment during civil war; I just lost my beloved cousin whom I've basically adopted as my little sister in a horrific incident which also killed hundreds of human children, and now I'm in state of grieving as I attempt to track down her murderer who is a dangerous person and my old war buddy Steve wants me on his side of a stupid human surface war over human/mutant superhero rights that has nothing to do with me, my people, or our laws, and he sends a woman whom he knows I have had feelings for in the past (and still have feelings for) in this my most darkest hour and asks me to get involved in their war, another human war. No talk of finding Nita's killer, no talk of asking what is best for the Atlantean people, just gather your army of faceless red shirt Atlanteans to die for cause that has nothing to do with me at all.

This is imo very terrible writing. For Namor, Steve, and Sue. Sue most of all should have been ashamed and refused to do it, because if she really loved Namor then why would she have gone along with this plan? This is preying on the vulnerable feelings of a grieving man. It's gross imo. If this was reversed (and it had been in the 90s when Namor would try to hook up with Sue for real and no war motive when it was presumed Reed was dead) then we would be saying Namor is being a creep for doing this.

2 - Yes. I do want Namor in the ocean. I do want him in Atlantis. I do want him away from other superheroes, because no matter what other title Namor is put into, X-Men, Avengers, Fantastic Four, it's not about Namor at all, its about those teams and he plays a small part. So yes for a Namor solo featured comic I want nothing to do with the surface world because we have already gotten that so many times. The only comic I would consider Namor for a long running feature is Defenders.

3 - It is not the fault of the character that he cannot carry a book, it is 100% the fault of Marvel's powers that be, the editors and ones who are in charge of making the books. We have literally talked about how they have been stopping Namor from getting a solo series for years, this isn't even a conspiracy theory, this was literally confirmed by Chip Zdarsky in an interview who tried to get a Namor solo and was told No and then was granted the Invaders book. Any character can be made into a great seller if they put the right team on it and don't cancel it a year later. Who would have thought Eternals or whomever would ever become popular until Marvel put the work into it. Namor can carry a story and there have been amazing writers and artists who have mentioned they would love to make a Namor book, however it's all in the hands of Marvel. It's not that Namor can't find his audience, it's that Marvel is actively holding the character back from achieving it's true potential.

Wait, what? What do you mean anymore? When did we ever get Namor stories that were just in the ocean away from the superheroes of the surface? Even during the Silver Age and 90's run when we did get underwater stories, Namor is always dragged back to surface stories.

There's a reason the concept of Atlantis, where it is, what it looks like, who lives there are all kind of vague and nebulous, it's because we never get to spend any amount of time there.

I have nothing against Namor having relationships with surface women, it's that it's way past time we get relationships with characters that actually live in Namor's world. Also, I have no problem with Namor being polyamorous, I'm quite sure he is. I always would mind him having, not just multiple relationships, but multiple wives. He's the ruler of an ancient undersea empire, he could have many wives, even a harem, and it wouldn't be out of character. I'm also sure Namor would love every one of them.

But you have to understand that Namor is also the "fish out of water" amongst his own people. It's kind of central to who he is as a character. He doesn't fit in anywhere. You can explore this concept with him regardless of the location of the story.

Agreed, Marvel needs to invest in Atlantis as it's own world rather than having Namor on the surface constantly. Namor is not accepted in Atlantis at all, he has to struggle to keep the throne so many times.

Also yeah I can see Namor having a harem or multiple partners or wives or whatever and him being very good with all of them. What I don't accept is how he is written in Fantastic Four comics or even with Emma/Scott because at that point we aren't seeing the true character of how he is with partners but rather he is being used as a trope of "outsider wants to seduce woman away from good man and woman must resist his plays on her affections", that's is a major reason why I don't like to use those comics as examples of how Namor acts in a relationship bc he isn't the main character there, he is a side character being used for the main couple's issues.

Yes he would!

We've gotten arcs that stayed underwater, like Stan Lee's the Quest and the Harras and Lee Suma-Ket arc. Roy Thomas would do stories underwater, but it was definitely interspersed with forays on the surface world. Alot of the DeMateis mini-series was underwater, but it was all motivated by an airbreather. But yes, Marvel definitely believes that Namor HAS to mostly interact with the surface world or readers won't be interested. Which, IMO, is entirely bogus.

I didn't think about that, but that's true. We don't spend enough time in Atlantis to get any details.

This! That's why I've said, the MCU Namor isn't going to be Namor if he isn't bi-racial, and the perpetual outsider.

It is so bogus!!! Why can we have 10,000 stories based in New York or Space but when it comes to the undersea world it's so lacking that it's sad. Atlantis needs attention by creators to flesh out it's world more.

Yes exactly, Namor is a character who is biracial and has one foot in either world/culture, even among the Atlanteans he doesn't totally fit in.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Yep. Geoff Johns reused alot of Namor for Black Adam. ;p

I don't know what is the explanation for the pointy ears?

Oh, I meant that toy makers often reuse the same head/body molds for toys because it saves money, like that head really looks like it came from one of the recent Namor action figures, it looks nothing like Black Adam or the actor playing him. lol.

That's a good point. Though, there's a difference between people he is in a relationship with and people he wants to be in a relationship with. With the later, he'll recognize the line, but tread awful close to it and that can be uncomfortable for Sue and Emma.

I think it's clear that Namor is a Captain Kirk pansexual.

Ah, Gillen strikes again. I really wish we'd gotten his Namor book back in 2010.

That Winter Soldier book was so trippy ... I don't know if the whole thing was real or a Bucky fever dream. Namor and drugs ....

I agree. You only have to look at all the sea creatures myths and legends to see that the Atlanteans have different ideas about relationships and sex then most surface breathers.

Sue and Namor's relationship does result in a lot of name calling for both characters by the casual fan. I get annoyed at people that trash Namor as homebreaker, when there was literally no home to break when Namor met Sue. She wasn't married to Reed, and the guy wasn't committing. Meanwhile, Namor wanted to marry Sue from the beginning!

I think if you compare the Namor and Dianne Arliss Newell relationship and the Namor and Sue relationship, you'd understand my frustration with the latter. Granted, I don't think Namor and Dianne's relationship was as ... intense as Namor and Sue, but there was definitely an attraction. Anyway, you don't see Namor repeatedly trying to woo Dianne away from Walter Newell, like with Sue and Reed. But then again, Dianne appears to have shut that door FIRMLY and rarely asks Namor for anything. This is not the case with Sue. Granted, Dianne and Walter have never carried a book, much less one as long lived and successful as the FF. ; p


Not that I know of. That issue came out when the Internet was in its infancy. I'm not sure I even had a computer then. LOL! I do remember being shocked, but yeah, it was believable the way it was written. I mean, as far as the characters knew, Reed was dead.

There was an old FF site that might have had some discussion, years afterwards, about the issue, but they shut down. Iron Maiden would know the name, if you wanted to try the Way Back Machine.

As I said in my last reply, analyzing Namor only from those two relationships isn't very good because Namor is used by writers for relationship drama, it would be better to examine the character through a lens in which he is the main character, relationships such as Carrie, Namor was very interested in her but the moment she said she didn't want to have a relationship with him he still respected her choice and they were friends.

lol, I actually liked that bit about Namor and the drugs because it makes sense. I doubt many things would affect Namor that isn't super powerful, and he drinks to cope sometimes, so why not drugs? He even mentions he takes it in moderation so as to not become addicted.



I love the artwork in this series so much for that first issue and I feel it would make an amazing Namor comic, something very otherworldly.



Thanks so much Rev, I will ask Iron Maiden over in the Doom boards if they might have any idea what it was called and I can try to track it down!

[Iron Maiden]

Hi again,

I am trying to remember what issue of the Fantastic Four that was but it doesn't ring a bell. Who was the team on the FF at that time?

[Reviresco]

Hi again,

I am trying to remember what issue of the Fantastic Four that was but it doesn't ring a bell. Who was the team on the FF at that time?

It was in Namor (1990) #50, IIRC. Sue was wearing the boob window outfit and it was after everyone thought Reed was dead, IIRC. In the actual FF book, I'm thinking Namor joined the FF then. Or did that happen a year later? How long was Reed "dead"?

[ImperiusWrecked]

It was in Namor (1990) #50, IIRC. Sue was wearing the boob window outfit and it was after everyone thought Reed was dead, IIRC. In the actual FF book, I'm thinking Namor joined the FF then. Or did that happen a year later? How long was Reed "dead"?

Namor joins the FF shortly after this iirc, bc like his series ends with whole atlantis uprising thing and then he has no where else to be and like hangs around the FF, i think??? man i hate trying to remember the order of comics coming out together

[Reviresco]

Namor joins the FF shortly after this iirc, bc like his series ends with whole atlantis uprising thing and then he has no where else to be and like hangs around the FF, i think??? man i hate trying to remember the order of comics coming out together

Right. This run ended with 62 or 63, IIRC, so a year after this issue. I didn't realize they had kept Reed "dead" that long.

[Reviresco]

FYI, Atlantis will be one of the location cards in Marvel Snap. Of course, there are like 50 locations, I think, so it's not that special. ;p

[Reviresco]

I saw NamorCosplay on Twitter asking about the Hellfire Gala Namor costume -- maybe so he could make it??? Anyway, I was thinking he should post himself wearing sandwich boards like this:






But put this image on the boards:




NAMOR'S HELLFIRE GALA COSTUME!!!


Oh, and FOC is Sunday. So do you think shops blindly order tons of copies, since Marvel hasn't provided the image?

[K7P5V]

Right. This run ended with 62 or 63, IIRC, so a year after this issue. I didn't realize they had kept Reed "dead" that long.

Yeah! Reed was gone after F4 #381 & didn't return until F4 #407, which would be over two years (IRL):





But, everyone still believed he was alive somewhere...

[Iron Maiden]

I don't recall where I read this but allegedly Tom DeFalco wanted to keep Reed and Doom dead for as long as he could. But then the Heroes Reborn thing started to get the support of TPTB and he was told to put them both back in the comic. Doom returned in the issue prior. At the moment of their impeding deaths, Hyperstorm grabbed them from the timestream and kept Doom prisoner in his future. Reed was exiled in a distant past that sort of ressembles Conan's Hyperborian age. There is a crossover with the Fantastic Four Unlimited series that covers this too. I have that series packed away somewhere but I wish it was added to Marvel Unlimited so I could check on some of that stuff again.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Interesting, I also didn't realize how long they kept Reed dead for, two years is a long time!

I saw NamorCosplay on Twitter asking about the Hellfire Gala Namor costume -- maybe so he could make it??? Anyway, I was thinking he should post himself wearing sandwich boards like this:






But put this image on the boards:




NAMOR'S HELLFIRE GALA COSTUME!!!


Oh, and FOC is Sunday. So do you think shops blindly order tons of copies, since Marvel hasn't provided the image?

LOL. Also WHY haven't they revealed Namor's outfit yet?! I'm telling you this is so weird because we get literally everyone else's costumes way ahead of the published date with previews and everything but when it comes to Namor it's silence??? Whoever it is at Marvel that keeps delaying Namor stuff must hate him very much. There is just no other explanation about the way Marvel constantly denies Namor fans anything important and just toss out scraps for us.