IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2022

[ImperiusWrecked]

Rev why must you remind me of things I wish to forget ): /jk

Seriously though, why Marvel why??? Why do you HAVE to have 3 different things connect when they don't need to! Atlantis should be far away from space stuff as far as I'm concerned. Morgana has like the whole king arthur thing, we dont need to tie Atlantis to her too, nor the Inhumans. It's just messy.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Bringing back the previous topic of conversation, Iron Maiden you said that Namor was in Latveria, however I went back to read that era and in Black Panther (2009) #11, Namor states "When T'Challa left my island he left in peace". So that probably means that Doom showed up to Namor's island which had a castle it in, however now writing this out just now it makes much more sense for Doom to have "gifted" Namor the use of one of his islands that have a castle on it, than for Namor to have a castle on an island that T'Challa can visit that looks just like Doom's other holdings. So perhaps Namor was not residing in Latveria during this era but rather Doom had him put up in one of this other properties that has better access to the ocean. Which again makes more sense since his Atlantean army would do better in the ocean nearby and Doom would not have to deal with a whole living breathing army to accommodate on his home soil.

[Oberon]

Almost reminds me of how Reed figured out what happened when Alicia was kidnapped by the Enclave waaaaaay back in FF, v. 1 # 66 or thereabouts.

I'm a person that tends to believe that science shows our human type body has existed in this form, more or less, for between 100,000 and 200,000 years.

So I have no idea Conan's Hyborian age stacks up to that, but seems ample, no?
I'm also reminded that during DeFalco's run, when Reed was "killed off" he was displaced in time, in a vast sense, so I rather thought that was analogous to Conan's time frame.

With times so vast, it is very obvious that Atlantis has a number of versions and / or overlaps.

Troy was rebuilt 7 times on it's previous ashes, and some still think they could go deeper.

Why not?

I don't remember specifically that Attilan was Atlantis, but from the sense of remoteness that has been shown to be Attilan (those old origin stories in old Thor's.) of course it is possible.

More likely as humans gathered tales and legends, it blurred together (helped by Eternals/Deviants and the like too, I imagine.

All the genetics from all the possible iterations of Atlantis can be in play too.

I don't think modern Atlanteans 'came to be' by some supreme magical or God-ly act, not to an entire large population, but

maybe a smaller amount of people, magic workers either tribal or sophisticated.

These could be the folks who -again- over the vast amounts of time - intermixed with whoever else had stuff going on in and under the oceans.

To me it is the vastness of time that works against a homogenous view of Atlantean dna/phenotypes.

The Bird Island people of Inhuman origin could support this. They clearly were more isolated from other human/other types that would intermix with their race.
We don't know though on that last point.

[Oberon]

The current Atlantean phenotype is probably a lot more stabilized and uniform these days, but to me, would have traces or markers that show all the elements from long ago whether Eternal/Deviant, Inhuman or 'other'.

I don't believe or care greatly for the outer space aspects to Atlantis.

Why can't there be a modern Atlantis with great science but also some amount of magical/Pagan interface.

[Reviresco]

I don't believe or care greatly for the outer space aspects to Atlantis.

Why can't there be a modern Atlantis with great science but also some amount of magical/Pagan interface.

This has been pretty much the take on Atlantis since Tales to Astonish, IMO.

Bill Everett's Golden Age stories were all science, and never claimed to be Atlantis. They were Sub-Mariners, not Atlanteans. I'd argue that Namor was like a proto-Tony Stark or Techno Jungle Black Panther back then, in that he designed alot of the Atlantean ships and stuff. And of course, who could forget the awesome Blitz Buggy!



From IW's tumblr:

https://imperiuswrecked.tumblr.com/p...ere-he-built-a


But when Stan Lee gave Namor his own book in Tales to Astonish, he started treating Atlantis like a science / magic city -- to fit into the sword and sorcery / fantasy theme he was using, i.e. the Quest and adding Neptune to the mythology.

Yeah, I don't need Atlanteans in Space. There's far too much to discover underwater.

[ImperiusWrecked]

This has been pretty much the take on Atlantis since Tales to Astonish, IMO.

Bill Everett's Golden Age stories were all science, and never claimed to be Atlantis. They were Sub-Mariners, not Atlanteans. I'd argue that Namor was like a proto-Tony Stark or Techno Jungle Black Panther back then, in that he designed alot of the Atlantean ships and stuff. And of course, who could forget the awesome Blitz Buggy!



From IW's tumblr:

https://imperiuswrecked.tumblr.com/p...ere-he-built-a


But when Stan Lee gave Namor his own book in Tales to Astonish, he started treating Atlantis like a science / magic city -- to fit into the sword and sorcery / fantasy theme he was using, i.e. the Quest and adding Neptune to the mythology.

Yeah, I don't need Atlanteans in Space. There's far too much to discover underwater.

Blitz Buggy!!!



lol. Yeah no space stuff please. That's why I loved Namor: The First Mutant, the Logomancer, the whole idea of science and magic working together.

[Doombot]

In Tales of Atlantis, the capital city is attacked by Lemurians and the weapon the Atlanteans use to repel them is tapping into a magma flow (I'm guessing really deep?), which also ends up destroying their sea wall, and apparently leads to the drowning of the city. The magma can't be controlled, and overflows and destroys the city. Yeah, now that I read it again, it doesn't really make sense. Sounds like a geothermal weapon that blows up their island / continent. It doesn't mention what happened to Lemuria. However, IF Atlantis was tapping into the Earth's mantle, perhaps it would have repercussions around the globe.

Also, let's remember that Lemuria may have been much closer to Atlantis than it is now. The map during Kull's time is unrecognizable, sor of a super continent.

I can't remember reason is given for the Great Cataclysm is in REH / Conan history. But I'm thinking there's more than one, because the was some disaster that destroyed Conan's Hyborean Age, before our present history. It probably had something to do with the Serpent Men and Set.

Of course, Marvel retconned the Eternals and the arrival of the first Host into this storyline, so ...

Oh, and speaking of retcons ... let us not forget that the island continent of Atlantis also is the birthplace of the Inhumans, the first Attilan, as well as Morgan le Fey's Avalon. All hail the retcons!!!

One thing that would have to be done if one was to streamline all these histories into one, is first to drop the REH map, or at lease concede that they did not have an accurate map of the world at the time, because even a lost age of tens of thousands of years is far from being enough to have the locations of the continents be in different places and sizes.

Inhumans are out, get your own history.

Avalon is a mystical place is it not? I though it was more akin to Shambhala, like a place between places? Morgan le Fey was a descendent of Zhered-Na wasn't she? Either way, Avalon is out too lol. Be a mystical magic island.

The Deviants, Eternals and Celestials are not as easy to ignore. That history isn't going anywhere, but the Deviants and Eternals never really have to interact directly with ancient peoples that much, especially the Eternals, they're busy focusing on each other. My own bias for loving the Celestials see them as the perfect culprits for the Cataclysm, as they have the power and ability to do something so specific and seemingly impossible as sinking island continents, but we still need a reason as for the why.

[Reviresco]

One thing that would have to be done if one was to streamline all these histories into one, is first to drop the REH map, or at lease concede that they did not have an accurate map of the world at the time, because even a lost age of tens of thousands of years is far from being enough to have the locations of the continents be in different places and sizes.

Inhumans are out, get your own history.

Avalon is a mystical place is it not? I though it was more akin to Shambhala, like a place between places? Morgan le Fey was a descendent of Zhered-Na wasn't she? Either way, Avalon is out too lol. Be a mystical magic island.

The Deviants, Eternals and Celestials are not as easy to ignore. That history isn't going anywhere, but the Deviants and Eternals never really have to interact directly with ancient peoples that much, especially the Eternals, they're busy focusing on each other. My own bias for loving the Celestials see them as the perfect culprits for the Cataclysm, as they have the power and ability to do something so specific and seemingly impossible as sinking island continents, but we still need a reason as for the why.

LOL! I can't tell you how often I've thought that, "get out, and get your own history!" about several characters.

I don't know about Morgan Le Fey's ancestor ... hadn't heard that before.

Well, apparently there are quite a few "histories" that will have to be streamlined. Check out the wiki with FIFTEEN different causes of the Great Catacylsm.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Cataclysm

I'd forgotten about the Axis Mundi bit from Heracles.

I do think the Celestials storyline is probably going stick, what with the MCU. Though the Deviants DID have direct contact / interference with ancient people, which is why Lemuria and Atlantis were trashed.

[ImperiusWrecked]

FIFTEEN?!? lmao what a mess!

Doombot and Rev booting the Inhumans and Morgana from Atlantis:

[Reviresco]

FIFTEEN?!? lmao what a mess!

Doombot and Rev booting the Inhumans and Morgana from Atlantis:

I fully admit, this reaction is true. ;p

[Reviresco]

Bringing back the previous topic of conversation, Iron Maiden you said that Namor was in Latveria, however I went back to read that era and in Black Panther (2009) #11, Namor states "When T'Challa left my island he left in peace". So that probably means that Doom showed up to Namor's island which had a castle it in, however now writing this out just now it makes much more sense for Doom to have "gifted" Namor the use of one of his islands that have a castle on it, than for Namor to have a castle on an island that T'Challa can visit that looks just like Doom's other holdings. So perhaps Namor was not residing in Latveria during this era but rather Doom had him put up in one of this other properties that has better access to the ocean. Which again makes more sense since his Atlantean army would do better in the ocean nearby and Doom would not have to deal with a whole living breathing army to accommodate on his home soil.

IW, you are trying to make sense of Hudlin's terrible writing.

This was a mess of a story that was confusing. IIRC, there was arguments and the usual Namor bashing and blaming at the time, and this later issue by Mayberry tried to clarify it / rescue the mess. It's clear from the panels in the first issue, that T'challa did NOT leave Namor's alleged island (which doesn't look like an island or in his taste). He barely got out of the doorway before Doom ambushed him.

I don't think Doom gifted Namor an island. First off, Namor doesn't need anyone to give him an island. There's plenty of islands in the ocean he probably claims. The island in this issue where Shuri ambushes him, appears to be one. Plus, we know it's not an island near Latveria, because Latveria is landlocked.

I really don't think Namor and his army was in Latveria at this time -- though I think Hudlin thought he was. Remember, Namor wasn't in Latveria, but actually in jail for stupid reasons, which happened in Fraction's The Order. But he was freed, when the Cabal was formed, and Doom was free and back in Latveria, Namor and Emma made their deal in Uncanny X-Men Annual -- and all that happened before this Black Panther issue. It is at times like this I really miss Comicbook Database.

Given Namor's farewell to T'challa, I often wonder if Hudlin actually DID plan / write Namor as betraying T'challa to Doom, because he wasn't quite in synch with the rest of the MU, and especially with the X-Office, which had already claimed Namor. Plus he was leaving Marvel at that time, and Mayberry finished this volume of BP with Doomwar.

[Iron Maiden]

All I can say is that Doom does have multiple residences. Maybe he leased one to Namor. As I said earlier, when Kristoff had taken over Latveria for a while, Doom was shown in Iron Man #249 to be living somewhere in Europe but the location was never given. Namor could have picked that one because it was in another country .

[ImperiusWrecked]

IW, you are trying to make sense of Hudlin's terrible writing.

This was a mess of a story that was confusing. IIRC, there was arguments and the usual Namor bashing and blaming at the time, and this later issue by Mayberry tried to clarify it / rescue the mess. It's clear from the panels in the first issue, that T'challa did NOT leave Namor's alleged island (which doesn't look like an island or in his taste). He barely got out of the doorway before Doom ambushed him.

I don't think Doom gifted Namor an island. First off, Namor doesn't need anyone to give him an island. There's plenty of islands in the ocean he probably claims. The island in this issue where Shuri ambushes him, appears to be one. Plus, we know it's not an island near Latveria, because Latveria is landlocked.

I really don't think Namor and his army was in Latveria at this time -- though I think Hudlin thought he was. Remember, Namor wasn't in Latveria, but actually in jail for stupid reasons, which happened in Fraction's The Order. But he was freed, when the Cabal was formed, and Doom was free and back in Latveria, Namor and Emma made their deal in Uncanny X-Men Annual -- and all that happened before this Black Panther issue. It is at times like this I really miss Comicbook Database.

Given Namor's farewell to T'challa, I often wonder if Hudlin actually DID plan / write Namor as betraying T'challa to Doom, because he wasn't quite in synch with the rest of the MU, and especially with the X-Office, which had already claimed Namor. Plus he was leaving Marvel at that time, and Mayberry finished this volume of BP with Doomwar.

Lol, it's a curse for me to try to make sense of Marvel sometimes but I try XD. Thanks for the explanation Rev

All I can say is that Doom does have multiple residences. Maybe he leased one to Namor. As I said earlier, when Kristoff had taken over Latveria for a while, Doom was shown in Iron Man #249 to be living somewhere in Europe but the location was never given. Namor could have picked on that was in another country to take up residence for a while.

I totally see Victor has having places he puts people in for their comfort as a way of him showing off his wealth and his hospitality, a lot of writers forget Doom is very Old World, when it comes to matters like being polite, caring for his guests in a manner that a host should (usually, sometimes there are traps tho XD) and with a guest of Namor's status, a room in Doom's castle wouldn't do, but rather a whole estate for the Prince of the seas to hang his hat in for the time he spends in Doom's company. Not to mention with his teleporting tech it would be easy for Namor to meet up with Doom at the main castle whenever.

[Reviresco]

Sooooo, it appears that Marvel is losing the Conan license. Which leaves the door open for Namor to step in as THE Sword and Sorcery title. Now if ONLY someone at Marvel realizes this.

[Iron Maiden]

Sooooo, it appears that Marvel is losing the Conan license. Which leaves the door open for Namor to step in as THE Sword and Sorcery title. Now if ONLY someone at Marvel realizes this.

That's odd because Marvel just relaunched Savage Avengers with a new creative team in April