IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2022

[Doombot]

Somethings to think about, with the gill, breathe/speak thing.

If these gills operate like a fish, as suggested, how do you speak as you're also intaking water to breathe?

It doesn't make sense. Even without gills speaking underwater doesn't really make sense, it's just some of that good ol' turn off your brain comicbook magic.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I understand this, and agree. The canon Atlanteans already show us great adaptations for sea life, their durability and resistance to deep water pressure, and ability to move through water without the resistance it creates for us, which gives them their great strength and speed. Their vision in low light and almost total darkness, and also their ability to live in freezing temperatures as well as temperate or tropical seas. That being said land vertebrates have returned to the see on multiple occasions throughout history, the great marine reptiles, sea turtle, whales & porpoises and pinnipeds (seals and walrus etc) and while they all evolved and adapted beautifully to life in the oceans, none of them re-evolved gills. Of course, none of them can breathe under water. All of that being said, it leaves us in the same place, how did the Atlanteans come to breathe directly underwater? It would have to be something wholly unique, as gills cannot be retroactively evolved. I'm sure something gill-like could evolve, but where? The Atlaneans are virtually unchanged physically, they still speak and make sound from their throats and have noses, so I would assume they must have had some adaptation to their lung system itself. Their lungs would have had to evolve in such a way that they became a gill-like oxygen filter system in place of their lung system. The act of breathing in the water and exhaling it would process the oxygen internally, essentially giving them internal gills.

If it had to be fish like gills, they should really be placed as two slits along the bottom jawline, starting close to the base of the ear, down towards the chin. This would give them the ability to pump the water through the gills via the mouth and breathing in water.

Im sure these are answers to questions no one on earth ever asked, but hey, we're Sub-Mariner nerds. Does anyone know how this is dealt with over at DC? Does Aquaman have gills? I'm also worried about how the MCU will handle this. I have visions of gill people like Kevin Costner in WaterWorld with gills behind his ears or the hideous torso gills on the character "The Deep" from the series The Boys. No one really finds these characters "cool" or "inspiring".

Fascinating!!! I seriously think the MCU might not even include gills, 80% of artists ignore the gills too even though they have been around since the silver age, Marie and Roy wrote the first major story that featured them IIRC, The Sub-Mariner #18, Namor is kidnapped and examined.

submariner 18.jpg


The way they show the gills seems very close to the chin-ears, your theory is one way it can work. Also the atlanteans (writers) have largely abandoned the magic/science potions that allow normal Atlanteans to breath up in the air and these days you just see them with water masks either over their mouths (??? which makes no sense if its their gills they breath through) or over their gills or entire head water helmets. I can't pin down exactly when they stopped using the potions but I don't recall seeing it outside of the bronze age, the only exception is of course Princess Fen flashbacks.

But oofff yeah I agree with the whole The Deep thing, I checked out the show to see him specifically and noped right back out, I didn't like anything about that character. Also as far as I know the DC Atlanteans don't have any gills and never have, but I have not kept up with Aquaman comics in ages. DC Atlanteans are literally just "humans underwater with some special abilities" they have different species underwater but the Atlanteans are very human.

Somethings to think about, with the gill, breathe/speak thing.

If these gills operate like a fish, as suggested, how do you speak as you're also intaking water to breathe?

Toro per most recent retcon has Inhuman genes, which have been stimulated more than once by agents that interact in ways that alter/give powers.
But some Inhumans are long-lived on their own, so Judgement Call, he could be long lived per Inhuman genes, or "something else"
Didn't Bucky bring him back to life with the Cosmic Cube? So maybe some effect of that also gives him increased lifespan. Whatever.

Yes, who knows why Toro is so long lived, but cosmic cube or inhuman or even mutant genes is the best bet, at this point I'm just happy to see when characters like Jim and Toro are included in stuff so I'm not complaining! lol

It doesn't make sense. Even without gills speaking underwater doesn't really make sense, it's just some of that good ol' turn off your brain comicbook magic.

On the subject of speaking underwater, as I said before Atlanteans *should* be slightly telepathic bc it makes no sense for them to talk normal underwater, sound does not travel like that. I personally feel the Atlanteans/Lemurians should be communicating in whale/dolphin type of noises with clicks etc. The Lemurains are like more snake like than fish like in their character designs but it's interesting to see bc there are such things as underwater snakes etc. Sirernas are more mermaid like, and as for mermaids in general it's surprising there aren't very many shown or featured in Sub-Mariner comics. I don't have a resource for all the underwater races but I think that would be a good project to document, even if they only show up once :/

Atlanteans after the Cataclysm or even how the Cataclysm happens, has never been fully decided one way or the other, magic or just evolution, we touched on this subject a while back but it still stands that Marvel just keeps things murky and there are like 5 different accounts of what happened. I personally would hate it if it was just Magic because I don't want Marvel Atlanteans to be like DC Atlanteans in that regard. I would much prefer if it was a godly intervention from Cleito or Neptune saving their "most favored" people during a terrible cataclysm. OR if a set of people had been scienced up to be able to breathe underwater for a time and they are the ones who survived. Or even my 3rd theory that Atlanteans were a water based people first before developing the ability to be on land, they created their island Atlantis, were attacked/the cataclysm occurred, and they returned to the sea.

It's so frustrating to see dumb things like Pre-Historic Avengers and no one ever tries to really flesh out pre/post cataclysm Atlantean history. It would bring so much world building and its a great resource for new stories that could be brought into today's current events happening in the marvel universe.

[Oberon]

There is a vastness factor, both in age of Atlantis, and possible sizes. Were there inhabited nearby islands?
so I've always felt that as it's special place in time it was very cosmopolitan and diverse.
Maybe there are separate origins for separate or differing groups of the populace.

Magic users. Even someone like Agatha Harkness has been shown to have a pre-flood origin, which I think is only possible if at some point she had substantial suspended animation, but my point here is
magical users from her end of the spectrum, like her children, / grand children, Salem's Seven, have shapeshifting abilities...

I rather like the idea of Neptune or a 'being' recreating some Atlanteans as water breathers. These would mostly be from the parts of Atlantis where he or what ever form he was (wouldn't Atlantis' deities be something else, not Graeco-Roman, maybe more similar to Egyptian... (and of course the Set/Serpent Crown connections)

While I doubt there was much time for others to 'evolve' into water breathers, I feel that Atlantis' proximity to Deviants or even water breathing Inhuman tribes might have used their science (or other science type persons of Atlantis and the era) to alter as many air breathers into water breathers.

So there are at least 3 ways that original Atlanteans may have been changed to be water breathers during the actual crisis:

Magic shapeshifting
Godly interventions (or maybe Eternal or Inhuman beings with advanced powers0
Other science.

After some hundreds of years, thousands, most of these new beings and their cultures, etc would have stabilized into more of what we know today at the various colonies of Atlantis, Lemuria, etc.

It would be interesting to see how the very Ancient Atlanteans of Hickman's FF would fit into this history.
The cataclysm that sank Atlantis also separated them from the world for quite a long time...
What might their true origins be?

[Doombot]

The ancient Atlanteans, like the current ones, were people who were fully comfortable wielding science, technology and magic. In my own head canon, there would have had to have been many individuals who would have foreseen the coming cataclysm. Competing theories and solutions would have been spread among the elites of Atlantis and many different appeals would have been made to leadership. Some magical, some technological, some a mixture. Visions and premonitions are never clear, and many Atlanteans foresaw this as the destruction of the entire world, and not just the sinking of Atlantis. Other Atlanteans decided to leave Atlantis altogether, which is how you have peopling of the Savage Land. Aside from the prehistoric proto-humans and Neanderthals, the people of the Savage Land are all descendants of Atlantis. There would have been one scientist, or group of scientists, who believed the only way the people of Atlantis would survive is to adapt to the sea, and then went about figuring out how to make that a reality, maybe with the backing of a sympathetic King or nobility. In the end Atlantis was lost and most Atlanteans died with it. Enough survived in the sea to slowly begin again.

[Oberon]

Yes. I love your summation too.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Found this on twitter yesterday, does anyone know any more about it?

[Reviresco]

Found this on twitter yesterday, does anyone know any more about it?

Well, I'm stunned. I was just joking with a friend that Namor wasn't going to be in BP, cause he was not in the last list of announced digital comics, but BRUTE FORCE was getting a digital comic.

It looks like Namor IS going to appear but in the X-Men digital line.

https://leagueofcomicgeeks.com/comic...infinity-comic

Looks like an April 11 release.


I wonder who the creative team is going to be. PLEASE be Gillen.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Well, I'm stunned. I was just joking with a friend that Namor wasn't going to be in BP, cause he was not in the last list of announced digital comics, but BRUTE FORCE was getting a digital comic.

It looks like Namor IS going to appear but in the X-Men digital line.

https://leagueofcomicgeeks.com/comic...infinity-comic

Looks like an April 11 release.


I wonder who the creative team is going to be. PLEASE be Gillen.

Thanks Rev!

[Doombot]

I didn't know what it was from, but Namor looks 15 lol

[ImperiusWrecked]

I didn't know what it was from, but Namor looks 15 lol

I said "his face looks like a teen" to my friends when I first saw it too, lol. Idk I feel like artists keep forgetting Namor is should look like he is in his 30s-40s for human years, but they probably don't know the character much or it's just their style?

[Doombot]

I find that most artists these days are less concerned with what any character's "established" look is, and are more interested in what they see as "my take" on the character. It's both a good and bad thing. Of course every artist should feel they can create a version of a character as they see fit, but you also have to realize these characters are long established and are supposed to look a certain way, based on decades of previous work. At some point it comes down to Marvel editorial, and I'm sure as long as the character is wearing the current version of their costume, they don't give a ****.

[Reviresco]

Thanks Rev!

NP. Glad to see it, as I'm not keeping up with the news much lately.

I did see that Marvel has cancelled Shang-Chi #13 and it is now going to be a #1 of a Shang-Chi reboot. I hope this doesn't mean they are going to short us our Namor Hellfire Gala variant, even if it is by Chris Bachalo.

[ImperiusWrecked]

NP. Glad to see it, as I'm not keeping up with the news much lately.

I did see that Marvel has cancelled Shang-Chi #13 and it is now going to be a #1 of a Shang-Chi reboot. I hope this doesn't mean they are going to short us our Namor Hellfire Gala variant, even if it is by Chris Bachalo.

Do you not like the artist Rev?

I really hope we get that variant! I don't even care about the comic I just want the option to get that cover tbh.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Namor Week is less than a month away! Can't wait to share some stuff with you all and as always anyone can join in since the event is being hosted on twitter and tumblr!

[ImperiusWrecked]

The ancient Atlanteans, like the current ones, were people who were fully comfortable wielding science, technology and magic. In my own head canon, there would have had to have been many individuals who would have foreseen the coming cataclysm. Competing theories and solutions would have been spread among the elites of Atlantis and many different appeals would have been made to leadership. Some magical, some technological, some a mixture. Visions and premonitions are never clear, and many Atlanteans foresaw this as the destruction of the entire world, and not just the sinking of Atlantis. Other Atlanteans decided to leave Atlantis altogether, which is how you have peopling of the Savage Land. Aside from the prehistoric proto-humans and Neanderthals, the people of the Savage Land are all descendants of Atlantis. There would have been one scientist, or group of scientists, who believed the only way the people of Atlantis would survive is to adapt to the sea, and then went about figuring out how to make that a reality, maybe with the backing of a sympathetic King or nobility. In the end Atlantis was lost and most Atlanteans died with it. Enough survived in the sea to slowly begin again.

Forgot to reply to this but I like this too. I don't know much about the savage land history (nor care tbh, it's not my thing) but it would be interesting seeing as Namor has traveled there before. Also I wanted to add in, not just Pre/post cataylsm Atlantean history but also writers have like centuries and centuries of time between the Fall to the Reign of Thallo (Namor the sub-mariner (1990) #9) is totally unexplored, even Thallo, Tha-Korr, and Fen's life before the Oracle, have so much space for stories. Like the whole Clone massacre and Thallo is worthy of plots. The only female Empress (before Fen) from the First Mutant comics would also be a great place to have more history. There is just so much unexplored and while I understand keeping some things vague it doesn't mean everything should be. A writer could make their lasting impression in comics with a great namor run because they would have so much space to explore all kinds of stuff.