IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2022

[Reviresco]

Honestly? Why race-bend Namor when a character better suited to this role already exists? That's my big gripe. It's baffling to use a character.. without really using the character. If you want to use a Central American god... use Kukulkán... instead of having Namor go around using the name Kukulkan. Fun fact: Marvel first used Kukulkan in 1948! Ok, it's not a commonly used character at all. But.. why have a completely different character usurp that identity?

They didn't so much racebend Namor, as change the Atlanteans to water breathing Mayans. Namor isn't white. He was half white. My initial thought was that Namor was still going to be half Atlantean, but I'm not so sure now. He could be half Mayan and water breathing Mayan, which could still make Namor bi-racial. Or he could be half Spanish and half Mayan, which would also work. Or, as I'm beginning to suspect, he's actually going to be fully water breathing Mayan, and won't be bi-racial at all. His powers will all be due to mutation. Needless to say, I hope they don't go that route.

Kukulkan has no history with Black Panther. Nor is he human, subject to all the trauma that they want to put Namor through. I think, he'll be far more like Namor, but as Imp pointed out, his Atlantean half will be Mayan, instead of a fantasy minority.

Yeah, I can honestly say I've never met a Kukulkan fan. I think he's only appeared once, maybe twice, as a background character. And MCU Namor is not taking his identity. He's not a god. His people just treat him like one, sort of like Storm when she was in Kenya.

[Reviresco]

They hate Namor because he isn't "comic accurate"
They hate Namor because he is comic accurate (with the power level)'
There is no winning with them, they just want to hate.

Yep. That's the way it seems to me.

Everyone already knows my views on Namor + race so like I'm not getting into it because I really do want to point out something that we know and yeah I know its not fair but this is the reality of Marvel's consequences of not investing time and world building in Namor over the last few decades and letting Aquaman become a household name:

The instant DC's Aquaman made a billion dollars any semblance of Namor having a movie rooted in his Atlantean stories was literally dead in the water. No hate or nothing, but like from a business person pov like disney/marvel/mcu they would not invest all the money into a property to have it compared to Aquaman.

I definitely agree that the ultimate reason why we didn't get an Atlantean Namor is because Marvel completely screwed the pooch and didn't give a damn about Namor, either in the comics or the MCU.

Namor will still have his core character traits, the actor talked about it in this video.

Edit: forgot to add this: they want Namor because Namor has ties to Black Panther, that's another reason why, so the facts of 1) they wanted Namor for BP 2) they dont want to copy Aquaman, it's basically why they did it this way

The Aquaman thing is really just a convenient excuse. Marvel/Disney was never going to leave Namor or Atlantis intact or unchanged, no matter what films had come before, not in the cultural climate we exist in right now. It just wasn't going to happen. Saying that they don't or didn't want Namor to be compared to Aquaman is moot because people already are comparing them anyway, as they have continuously compared the two characters for the better part of a century. And for as much money as it made, Aquaman is not a hot property, it didn't have a lasting impact, and has been almost forgotten by the general public at this point. Disney/Marvel has it's agenda, and that's that. What you, I, or anyone else thinks about it is pretty inconsequential. Disney/Marvel has proven they're willing to let properties tank in favour of virtue signalling certain ideas or concepts when they know it won't find an audience despite a very loud minority gushing over it. Everyone needs to face the reality that absolutely everything is politically charged in today's world, and popular culture is right in the middle of it. Fighting over why they chose to specifically change Namor in this specific film is not seeing the forest for the trees.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with you here generally, as I'm not sure what properties have tanked, Doombot, but, in this instance, I think you are partially right. The main reason they went with the Mayan take, is because Coogler wanted it. A Black Panther film simply can not avoid being a social / political commentary. Making Atlantis Mayan keeps it within that genre / theme. Even though Namor has always been making that sort of commentary, it's been far more subtle and people have wrongly dismissed it, because it was 'fantasy diversity.'

OTOH, Coogler also said he didn't want to do Atlantis as is, because it has been done repeatedly and why compete with Wan's vision?

If Disney/Marvel was truly worried about Aquaman and DC's Atlantis, they would have had the courage to blow them out of the water (sorry for the pun) with their own version. They could have went hardcore into making their Atlantis and Namor into the best f**king Atlantis that has ever been seen on film and left DC/Warner Bros to pick up the pieces. They already have the vehicle to do so, being that Black Panther is/was a film that had a huge cultural impact and lasting power, whereas Aquaman did not and does not. Aquaman made it's money was a blip for a minute and went back into relative obscurity, which is the case for so many films in today's market. They might be a hit, but they fade away culturally almost immediately. Black Panther didn't do that. Disney/Marvel could have done anything they wanted, they had the world on the edge of it's seat waiting to see what would happen with Black Panther. In the end, they chose to do a "non" Atlantis and grafted real world MesoAmerican culture over Namor and the Atlanteans. Not exactly what I was hoping for, but it is what it is.

I'm trying to think ... it's too late ... I don't think Marvel has actually ever put that much effort into places, other than Shang Chi and Doctor Strange. They put a lot of work into characters and quips. But doing the world building? Not so much. Even the first Black Panther didn't have alot of world building for Wakanda -- though the costuming was amazing. I mean, Asgard was far more distinctive, I think. Aquaman was all about the visuals. The characters and plot, not so much. It would be hard for Marvel to compete, IMO, visually. Plus, the whole BP being a social / political commentary, as I mentioned before.

In the end, however they've dressed him up or stripped away X or Y, as long as the core aspects of Namor are there, and it's looking as though they might be, I'll enjoy it for what it is. Ultimately the MCU (for me) has already passed it's expiration date and outlived it's welcome, so all I really care about is this film being a hit and getting Marvel COMICS to remember that Namor The Sub-Mariner is worth giving an actual comic book to again.

From your keyboard ... as long as we don't get monkey pawed on that with that awful Fury Jr. movie synergy.

But yes, I'm hopeful, from what we've seen, that they will capture the essence of Namor. And honestly, I think they got the right actor, because he's getting it from both sides in Mexico and appears to give absolutely no f**ks. LOL!

Pluuuuuuusss, all that being said, I think it's pretty clear at this point Avatar's aquatic world is going to kick the **** out of both Marvel's Talocan and DC's Atlantis anyway, so nitpicking over the two runners-up is pointless.

Exactly. Cameron WILL go head to head with Aquaman, and blow them out of the water. It's better that Talokan isn't really competing with them on that level.

[Reviresco]

(not arguing, just discussing)

The same could be said of Avatar, it literally resonated Zero cultural/fandom impact, it's actually discussed by various pop culture articles how you don't have people quoting the movie or even remembering what it was about. There's more people looking forward to BP: WF. The fandom impact/pop culture impact of Avatar was minimal, yeah it made a lot of money, it has a theme park ride, but what it impacted the most was behind the scenes camera/cgi effects. Avatar 2 might make alot of money like Aquaman and like the first Avatar movie but if its anything like the reception after the first movie then it will be something people see because of the cool effects not because anyone particularly cares about the movie/story/universe, not saying there aren't people looking forward to it but its been years and I never saw people clamoring for the next movie the way they've been waiting for BP. I'm not a fan of the MCU either, but Universal had its chance to make a Namor movie years ahead of the superhero boom, they didn't.

I really don't know what the issue was with Universal. They had some big name directors attached. They had at least two scripts, including one by Walter Hill, IIRC, that was described as an underwater Star Wars. One set designer had done extensive work, and lamented it going to waste. They were looking at various people for the role, including Jason Statham. They COULD have made the movie! I guess all the underwater stuff just would have cost too much. Or maybe the success of Iron Man made them realize they needed to make it part of the MCU. I'd love to talk to Jonathan Mostow about what exactly happened.

Marvel could have done Namor first and got him on screen before Aquaman, but they didn't. Everyone complaining now don't understand the struggle of even getting Namor on screen when the odds are so obviously stacked against the character. Marvel literally had ZERO plans for Namor (maybe he would have been in Multiverse of Madness then killed off like the rest) to the point where Coogler said he wanted Namor and said no one else really had plans for him (paraphrasing) when he "claimed him". I highly doubt that Marvel would have even made any push for Namor to have a movie when the comics side didn't even think he could sell a comic. Like there's what the fans want and what the studio will do. The best we could hope for is that Namor wasn't treated like a villain or one note character, at the very least we are getting the core of the character, his story is shifted but I really don't think its too far of a shift as people make it out to be: Neptune > K'uk'ulkan, antarctica/atlantis > mesoamerica/talokan, Namor's still considered a demi-god like character, one with ties to a history of its people being hurt by humans/surface world, his nature as a leader and protector is there, like I keep saying fantasy coding is translating to real world representation. I'm fine with having 2 versions of the character, AUs exist in the comics too, and the MCU was never ever comic accurate to the point where people who now complain have any legitimate leg to stand on. It's adapted, and Marvel should stop saying it's the mcu is 616 imo bc it just pisses off comic fans.

From what I've seen and heard, I agree. I think we are getting most of what makes Namor, Namor in this movie.

You know why no one else had claimed Namor for a movie? Cause they knew that Feige didn't think he was worth doing all the negotiating he had to do for Hulk or Spider-Man. He told Coogler no, the first time he asked to add him to the end credits, cause he didn't have the rights straightened out. It is once again a case of Marvel ignoring Namor, while it's the creatives who push for his use.

[ImperiusWrecked]

They didn't so much racebend Namor, as change the Atlanteans to water breathing Mayans. Namor isn't white. He was half white. My initial thought was that Namor was still going to be half Atlantean, but I'm not so sure now. He could be half Mayan and water breathing Mayan, which could still make Namor bi-racial. Or he could be half Spanish and half Mayan, which would also work. Or, as I'm beginning to suspect, he's actually going to be fully water breathing Mayan, and won't be bi-racial at all. His powers will all be due to mutation. Needless to say, I hope they don't go that route.

Kukulkan has no history with Black Panther. Nor is he human, subject to all the trauma that they want to put Namor through. I think, he'll be far more like Namor, but as Imp pointed out, his Atlantean half will be Mayan, instead of a fantasy minority.

Yeah, I can honestly say I've never met a Kukulkan fan. I think he's only appeared once, maybe twice, as a background character. And MCU Namor is not taking his identity. He's not a god. His people just treat him like one, sort of like Storm when she was in Kenya.

1. That's exactly why I feel like I'm going insane every time people want to focus totally on Leonard and Namor's human side/white parentage instead of the one he has the most connection with/was the most impactful to his character with Fen and her people, or even talking about his dual identity etc. Being Biracial is a crucial aspect to Namor's character, his duality is his conflict, internally and externally.

2. I'm beginning to think that too, it's something I worried over tbh. My biggest concern was they would take the Leo/Fen story line and try and make it... like The Order, with that fake story Namor tells of his dad. I don't think Disney/Marvel would go for it but it is a concern because I love Leo/Fen's romance so much. Another theory is that Namor is first water breather? Idk, I just hope they keep some element of him being biracial, like air breathing Mayan/Talokan or something. Namor will still be set apart from his people in the sense of him being considered godlike, but I really think the biggest change will be that the Talokans revere Namor whereas the Atlanteans looked down on/hated him.

I really don't know what the issue was with Universal. They had some big name directors attached. They had at least two scripts, including one by Walter Hill, IIRC, that was described as an underwater Star Wars. One set designer had done extensive work, and lamented it going to waste. They were looking at various people for the role, including Jason Statham. They COULD have made the movie! I guess all the underwater stuff just would have cost too much. Or maybe the success of Iron Man made them realize they needed to make it part of the MCU. I'd love to talk to Jonathan Mostow about what exactly happened.





From what I've seen and heard, I agree. I think we are getting most of what makes Namor, Namor in this movie.

You know why no one else had claimed Namor for a movie? Cause they knew that Feige didn't think he was worth doing all the negotiating he had to do for Hulk or Spider-Man. He told Coogler no, the first time he asked to add him to the end credits, cause he didn't have the rights straightened out. It is once again a case of Marvel ignoring Namor, while it's the creatives who push for his use.

It's always been the creatives who want to use/expand Namor's stories and work with the character. I don't know why Marvel never has faith in the character. I know we talked before about how it always felt like someone was always vetoing Namor related stuff, we did get confirmation with that Zdarsky interview but it's been going on for a very long time where I don't feel it's just one person in charge behind it. I feel sometimes like Marvel has a list, like that old list of important characters, and someone put a 1 star next to Namor's name ):

The whole Universal thing is just weird, some backstage drama must have happened with the studios or something and we will probably never know what occurred.

[Doombot]

I'm way too lazy to do all the quoting, so... deal with it? lol

If both comic races have been changed for the film, even if one is a fantasy race, it's still race-bending, I'm not sure how it wouldn't be. Not that this is some hill I want to die on, just saying.
I'm more annoyed about the fantasy race change than the human one, and also how the entire mixed race aspect itself may be pushed aside and Namor is just a mutant. Oh man will I be pissed. So far, unless Namor's father is Spanish, he's the child of Mayan parents, one is an aquatic Mayan, the other unknown right now. The child torn between two different worlds and cultures is so important that just having two Mayan parents will get me so pissy lol. I'm hoping for the Spanish father. Also, people complaining about Namor not having a white father can eat **** if that is revealed, as Spanish people are *gasp* white. Maybe his name was "Leon Macheanzo".

Crap, I have to go back to work, to be continued.

[Klaue's Mixtape]

I gotta say Doombot isnt entirely wrong..

I think Namor is going to be Mayan/Talokan lost civilization and Aztec (father side)

Now to be fair they can always Maury it by saying his real father was spanish in future stuff, lol.

Just saying I'd be prepared for the man of two worlds not being a thing yet. More like a man of two similar but somewhat different cultures.

[Reviresco]

I'm way too lazy to do all the quoting, so... deal with it? lol

If both comic races have been changed for the film, even if one is a fantasy race, it's still race-bending, I'm not sure how it wouldn't be. Not that this is some hill I want to die on, just saying.
I'm more annoyed about the fantasy race change than the human one, and also how the entire mixed race aspect itself may be pushed aside and Namor is just a mutant. Oh man will I be pissed. So far, unless Namor's father is Spanish, he's the child of Mayan parents, one is an aquatic Mayan, the other unknown right now. The child torn between two different worlds and cultures is so important that just having two Mayan parents will get me so pissy lol. I'm hoping for the Spanish father. Also, people complaining about Namor not having a white father can eat **** if that is revealed, as Spanish people are *gasp* white. Maybe his name was "Leon Macheanzo".

Crap, I have to go back to work, to be continued.

LOL! Leon Macheanzo.


Heh. I'm sneaking in posts from work also.;p

Hmmm. I guess I don't feel that so much, because Marvel hasn't pinned anything down for the Atlanteans, as we've constantly complained about. I mean, they went from pseudo indigenous / tribal people of various level of 'human' features, to technologically advanced hidden super power, to that plus a layer of faux medievalism, to now back to animal riding tribalism, with a layer of magic. And we have no definitive origin. We've discussed how it is possible that the 'Asian' look comes from the Atlantean side -- but no telling how.

I can live with air breathing Mayan, and water breathing Mayan, as that's not all that different than now, given the lack of specific culture of the Atlanteans.

I can live with Spanish and Mayan, air or water breathing. Though I expect we can toss the love affair aspect of Leonard and Fen out the window.

But like you said, simply being a water breathing mutant, and not bi-racial. That's definitely missing the point. And I'm already a bit miffed that the Talokanil are not blue underwater.

[ImperiusWrecked]

better get these before they are sold out! limited edition emoji pins!

[ImperiusWrecked]

ha, we are all working and sneaking in posts. lol

Yeah the loss of the Fen/Leo relationship hurts me because I love Fen/Leo alot, and I know I go hard on Leo bc I get annoyed when people put too much emphasis on the character bc they want to prove Namor is white but honestly I do like the character and love his story, its very sad. Tragic romances are my fave thing. But saying that, Namor's background whatever it be I just hope it's good, like what is that burning house, what happened there? thats where I think we might know more about Namor's parentage? The Josue actor def seems like he will be playing The Shaman but is The Shaman also Namor's father? We see Fen above the water with no blue skin, do they make the change then she finds her "leo" etc.?

[Klaue's Mixtape]

[Reviresco]

better get these before they are sold out! limited edition emoji pins!

OMG. I didn't even know these existed. Will order ASAP.

[Reviresco]

I can't wait to see Namor in action. I really wish the comics did him as much justice as what I've seen in these in clips, regarding his flying abilities.

[Klaue's Mixtape]

[Reviresco]

ha, we are all working and sneaking in posts. lol

Yeah the loss of the Fen/Leo relationship hurts me because I love Fen/Leo alot, and I know I go hard on Leo bc I get annoyed when people put too much emphasis on the character bc they want to prove Namor is white but honestly I do like the character and love his story, its very sad. Tragic romances are my fave thing. But saying that, Namor's background whatever it be I just hope it's good, like what is that burning house, what happened there? thats where I think we might know more about Namor's parentage? The Josue actor def seems like he will be playing The Shaman but is The Shaman also Namor's father? We see Fen above the water with no blue skin, do they make the change then she finds her "leo" etc.?

Yes, I am sneaking. ;p


I like Leonard and Fen, not Leonard and Namor. They really didn't have a relationship. Fen and Leonard - they do have a tragic romance, and I've always loved it, but it's also a bit odd. I mean, he is responsible for raining ice cubes on the Sub-Mariners. I've always felt there was so much more to their story. But not that Fraction Captain Nemo stuff. Did. Not. Like.

I also felt the connection Thomas retconned that Krang was the leader of the recovery team that 'killed' Leonard is never given any play.

Yes, I'm getting the feeling that Josue will be playing the Shaman. Other than that ... I'm not sure.

The burning house. I need to look at that again, now that we finally get to see kid Namor's face.

[Reviresco]

I can't watch that right now, but I'm beginning to feel that Coogler should have never said that, even if it is mostly true. ;p