IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2022

[K7P5V]

I'd say don't cry, but lately, it hard for a Namor fan NOT to cry, even if it is tears of anger. ;p

I wouldn't say disregarded at all, Oberon! Perhaps disagreed with, but that's cool. We all have our own Namor headcanon. As I've said before, I see the underpinnings of Namor and Sue as mythic. However, most writers don't acknowledge or understand that, and just abuse Namor to "progress" Sue and Reed's latest relationship conflict. And thus there's zero future for Namor and Sue at Marvel. Cause I'm a Namor fan first, I want to see him in a relationship that is about HIM and his significant other, not being using as a plot point in some other character's story. Namor is long long long long long overdue to have his own romantic relationship.

And so yes, even though it is not romantic, I, and others, think Doom is a better _character_ for Namor to associate with because there story will be about THEM, and how they interact, and NOT about making Sue or Reed look better.

In agreement with you about Namor & Doom! Their partnership in Super-Villain Team-Up is a testament to that (IMHO):

[Darkspellmaster]

So I'm curious, given what's going on with monarchs in comics right now (DC had Arthur leave the throne, Inhumans don't have the royal family in charge anymore, X-men rule by council. Doom hasn't been pushed about his ruler, the screw up with Black Panther, Diana and Arthur both "dead" and Black Adam not ruling right now, Odin running around as an avenger, etc.) I'm wondering if Marvel ever decided to have Namor step away from being king, do you think that would give him more of a shot for a comic, or is it so important to his story that Marvel would have to keep it in, because it's looking more and more like rulers are being replaced with councils or like voted in presidents recently in comics and other literature.

[ImperiusWrecked]

In agreement with you about Namor & Doom! Their partnership in Super-Villain Team-Up is a testament to that (IMHO):

I love the fact that Doom just randomly used to appear in Namor's comics to help him out (or use him for his plans) lol. Frenemies to the end.

So I'm curious, given what's going on with monarchs in comics right now (DC had Arthur leave the throne, Inhumans don't have the royal family in charge anymore, X-men rule by council. Doom hasn't been pushed about his ruler, the screw up with Black Panther, Diana and Arthur both "dead" and Black Adam not ruling right now, Odin running around as an avenger, etc.) I'm wondering if Marvel ever decided to have Namor step away from being king, do you think that would give him more of a shot for a comic, or is it so important to his story that Marvel would have to keep it in, because it's looking more and more like rulers are being replaced with councils or like voted in presidents recently in comics and other literature.

Lmao, this has happened many times in the comics, so many times I can't even count, where Namor leaves or is kicked out of the throne/atlantis and joins a team. Heck it's happening RIGHT NOW in Avengers again. IMO its a terrible way to use Namor bc its been done, maybe a one time plot where Namor feels aimless bc he doesnt have a kingdom to rule and he joins a team but it's literally been done so many times that at this point I don't want to see it again. Taking Namor away from the throne again is just another way of separating Namor from his supporting cast which doesn't help him, imo.

[Reviresco]

In agreement with you about Namor & Doom! Their partnership in Super-Villain Team-Up is a testament to that (IMHO):

I did love Super-Villain Team-Up, but their partnership there did suffer some almost schizophrenic twists, because of all the writer changes. It did end properly, IMO.

I love the fact that Doom just randomly used to appear in Namor's comics to help him out (or use him for his plans) lol. Frenemies to the end.

This was one of the great endings ... which was, as usual, completely wasted and disregarded by Marvel.


Exactly. Doom is part of Namor's mythos, unlike other characters, and has been since their second appearances in the MU proper, i.e. FF 6. They are great foils for each other and their ... non-standard relationship says so much about both of them. You can always tell when things are the worst for Namor, because Doom shows up like the snake in the Garden of Eden, offering Namor an apple of solution. So, you understand partly where Namor stands, but Doom's reasoning is more complicated. Sure, an alliance is nice and all, but ostensibly, Doom believes he can do everything himself, so why exactly does he seek out Namor??? Hmmmmmm.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I did love Super-Villain Team-Up, but their partnership there did suffer some almost schizophrenic twists, because of all the writer changes. It did end properly, IMO.




This was one of the great endings ... which was, as usual, completely wasted and disregarded by Marvel.


Exactly. Doom is part of Namor's mythos, unlike other characters, and has been since their second appearances in the MU proper, i.e. FF 6. They are great foils for each other and their ... non-standard relationship says so much about both of them. You can always tell when things are the worst for Namor, because Doom shows up like the snake in the Garden of Eden, offering Namor an apple of solution. So, you understand partly where Namor stands, but Doom's reasoning is more complicated. Sure, an alliance is nice and all, but ostensibly, Doom believes he can do everything himself, so why exactly does he seek out Namor??? Hmmmmmm.

It's a mystery....




lol, me personally I feel like the reason Doom always has Namor on his speed dial is because he views Namor as the closet thing to a social equal he can, royalty who has a mistrust of people and who can also be a big help to Victor, not to mention he must also consider that Atlantis is a great wealth of technology and secrets he can mine for his own uses. Doom doesn't have friends, he has Boris but its more of a father and son relationship and he has Namor who's morally gray nature is enough for Doom to spend time with him rather than say another monarch like Black Panther.

[Reviresco]

It's a mystery....

I do love this meme. And I always wonder if there's a small element of truth in it. ;p

lol, me personally I feel like the reason Doom always has Namor on his speed dial is because he views Namor as the closet thing to a social equal he can, royalty who has a mistrust of people and who can also be a big help to Victor, not to mention he must also consider that Atlantis is a great wealth of technology and secrets he can mine for his own uses. Doom doesn't have friends, he has Boris but its more of a father and son relationship and he has Namor who's morally gray nature is enough for Doom to spend time with him rather than say another monarch like Black Panther.

LOL! Black Panther! Oh, hell no. That's a case of being thankful he has a mask to hid his expression behind.

It really depends on the writer. For example, I think Gerry Conway, who gave a human element to Doom, had him a bit confused about his reasons for seeking Namor. He had Doom wondering why he sabotaged their relationship when it COULD have been something other than just using Namor as a means to and end. That's the Doom and the relationship I like -- one who is a little more introspective and self aware. And I don't know if Doom actually considers himself Namor's "social" equal. Namor was born to the purple. Doom was NOT. And yet, Doom clearly believes /acts like he is everyone's superior -- but he MADE himself such. His only birthright was his intellect -- and perhaps an affinity for magic.

But I tend to think the foundation of Namor and Doom's relationship is a clear perception of each other. Yes, they may try to 'lay on the sugar' to get what they want, but at their cores, they know the other is going to betray them -- and they both know the other KNOWS that. So, there's no need to hold a grudge against each other -- they both are being true to their nature. And it must be nice to have someone you can be honest with in that way.

[Iron Maiden]

I do love this meme. And I always wonder if there's a small element of truth in it. ;p




LOL! Black Panther! Oh, hell no. That's a case of being thankful he has a mask to hid his expression behind.

It really depends on the writer. For example, I think Gerry Conway, who gave a human element to Doom, had him a bit confused about his reasons for seeking Namor. He had Doom wondering why he sabotaged their relationship when it COULD have been something other than just using Namor as a means to and end. That's the Doom and the relationship I like -- one who is a little more introspective and self aware. And I don't know if Doom actually considers himself Namor's "social" equal. Namor was born to the purple. Doom was NOT. And yet, Doom clearly believes /acts like he is everyone's superior -- but he MADE himself such. His only birthright was his intellect -- and perhaps an affinity for magic.



But I tend to think the foundation of Namor and Doom's relationship is a clear perception of each other. Yes, they may try to 'lay on the sugar' to get what they want, but at their cores, they know the other is going to betray them -- and they both know the other KNOWS that. So, there's no need to hold a grudge against each other -- they both are being true to their nature. And it must be nice to have someone you can be honest with in that way.

I miss the way writers used to handle their relationship in those days and Gerry Conway was the best. I don't think anyone has done as well with the two of them since. Hickman's story "You take the Seas, I'll take the Land" comes close but it shows Doom imagining geetting rid of Namor in the end.

Gerry Conway's last story in Astonishing Tales #8 (cover date Oct 1971) inspired Roger Stern's GN Triumph and Torment and gave us the annual battle to free his mother's soul. The final page of Conway's story in Astonishing Tales #8 also had a hint of another story in Astonishing Tales but issue #9 has nothing about it and it features only Ka-Zar who shared the comic with Doom.



Then fast forward to March 1972 and Doom appears Gerry Conway's Sub-Mariner #47 with the title Doomsmasque. I always wondered if this was supposed to have been in Astonishing Tales but Gerry Conway's plot necessitated it be switched to Namor's series instead of him being a guest star in the Doom series. This is my favorite team up story between the two



My favorite panel is Doom is the one you refer to .... questioning his own actions in his dealings with Namor. When Doom mentions this sense of entrapment it makes me think this is in way linking this to Conway's Astonishing Tales story. Not many writers get that deep these days with the exception of Cantwell's Doom solo series. Comics dispensed with thought balloons years ago, I think it was a Bill Jemas edict. But Cantwell gets around it by having Doom narrate his story at times by writing in his private journal.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I do love this meme. And I always wonder if there's a small element of truth in it. ;p

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

LOL! Black Panther! Oh, hell no. That's a case of being thankful he has a mask to hid his expression behind.

It really depends on the writer. For example, I think Gerry Conway, who gave a human element to Doom, had him a bit confused about his reasons for seeking Namor. He had Doom wondering why he sabotaged their relationship when it COULD have been something other than just using Namor as a means to and end. That's the Doom and the relationship I like -- one who is a little more introspective and self aware. And I don't know if Doom actually considers himself Namor's "social" equal. Namor was born to the purple. Doom was NOT. And yet, Doom clearly believes /acts like he is everyone's superior -- but he MADE himself such. His only birthright was his intellect -- and perhaps an affinity for magic.

But I tend to think the foundation of Namor and Doom's relationship is a clear perception of each other. Yes, they may try to 'lay on the sugar' to get what they want, but at their cores, they know the other is going to betray them -- and they both know the other KNOWS that. So, there's no need to hold a grudge against each other -- they both are being true to their nature. And it must be nice to have someone you can be honest with in that way.

YES. I love that about their relationship so much, like yes we are friends but also we are enemies, and we will turn on each other on a dime but meet up for dinner next month to plot out something else. I love it. Its so fun to read and rarely do we get this true kinda frenemyship.

Doom usurps the rulers of latveria and is buddies with an actual prince which imo has to do with him wanting to be seen as royalty.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I miss the way writers used to handle their relationship in those days and Gerry Conway was the best. I don't think anyone has done as well with the two of them since. Hickman's story "You take the Seas, I'll take the Land" comes close but it shows Doom imagining geetting rid of Namor in the end.

Gerry Conway's last story in Astonishing Tales #8 (cover date Oct 1971) inspired Roger Stern's GN Triumph and Torment and gave us the annual battle to free his mother's soul. The final page of Conway's story in Astonishing Tales #8 also had a hint of another story in Astonishing Tales but issue #9 has nothing about it and it features only Ka-Zar who shared the comic with Doom.


Then fast forward to March 1972 and Doom appears Gerry Conway's Sub-Mariner #47 with the title Doomsmasque. I always wondered if this was supposed to have been in Astonishing Tales but Gerry Conway's plot necessitated it be switched to Namor's series instead of him being a guest star in the Doom series. This is my favorite team up story between the two


My favorite panel is Doom is the one you refer to .... questioning his own actions in his dealings with Namor. When Doom mentions this sense of entrapment it makes me think this is in way linking this to Conway's Astonishing Tales story. Not many writers get that deep these days with the exception of Cantwell's Doom solo series. Comics dispensed with thought balloons years ago, I think it was a Bill Jemas edict. But Cantwell gets around it by having Doom narrate his story at times by writing in his private journal.

doom and namor.jpg

dr doom.jpg




Not to mention how huffy Doom gets when he meets up with Betty Dean, and says he is Namor's friend. lol.

[K7P5V]

I love the fact that Doom just randomly used to appear in Namor's comics to help him out (or use him for his plans) lol. Frenemies to the end.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/456416d3...c5f9324702.pnj

Thanks for the response. It's greatly appreciated. I also enjoy Doom randomly appearing in Namor's titles only just to vex him (LOL):


"In the Darkness Dwells... Doom!"







"Doomsmasque!"







"Black Harvest"

[K7P5V]

I did love Super-Villain Team-Up, but their partnership there did suffer some almost schizophrenic twists, because of all the writer changes. It did end properly, IMO.




This was one of the great endings ... which was, as usual, completely wasted and disregarded by Marvel.


Exactly. Doom is part of Namor's mythos, unlike other characters, and has been since their second appearances in the MU proper, i.e. FF 6. They are great foils for each other and their ... non-standard relationship says so much about both of them. You can always tell when things are the worst for Namor, because Doom shows up like the snake in the Garden of Eden, offering Namor an apple of solution. So, you understand partly where Namor stands, but Doom's reasoning is more complicated. Sure, an alliance is nice and all, but ostensibly, Doom believes he can do everything himself, so why exactly does he seek out Namor??? Hmmmmmm.

Indeed. Truly an epic first meeting (IMHO):

LOL! Black Panther! Oh, hell no. That's a case of being thankful he has a mask to hid his expression behind.

Doom VS. T'Challa in "And If I Be Called Traitor..!" (1971) was a most enjoyable reading experience...

[Oberon]

It would seem to me that Doom and Namor's partnership revolves around (not always, but it underlies) their relationship to the Fantastic Four.

Doom must realize that Sue is actually the most powerful member and also a weak spot for Namor, too. Maybe Doom has more to do with the Namor/Sue thing than one would realize. It advantages him, in his fight against Reed or at least there is potential.

It is not because Namor is hopelessly in love with Sue, that this is a weak spot. It is because Sue is one of the few humans he can trust, actually. I know you won't agree, but I think Sue as literally most noble character, is a beacon to Namor's own nobility. (which is why if the world was run right, they would have ended up together).

[Oberon]

Well that was a while ago. In more recent outings, would Panther have succumbed so quickly to Doom?

Does Doom really need Namor, or is it even something else?

[Iron Maiden]

This was one of the great endings ... which was, as usual, completely wasted and disregarded by Marvel.

Actually I did find that this was picked up on in Reggie Hudlin's Black Panther series in 2009. I had forgotten about this series but then I remembered there was a battle between Black Panther and Doom and it does not go well for BP. In the very first issue, we see T'Challa and some of the Dora Milaje returning to Wakanda but their ship is aflame and it crash lands. T'Challa is seriously injured and he has to be placed in a healing chamber. The story behind it is told in flashback scenes. T'Challa arrives at a medieval looking castle in the mountains and is greeted by Namor. Namor discussed Norman Osborn's creation of the Cabal and asks him to join.



T'Challa turns down the invitation and when he leaves he is confronted outside by Doom and some Doombots. Even though Latveria isn't mentioned I assume this must be where Namor is staying. This issue came out in 2009 and the Sub-Mariner: Revolution mini concluded at the end of 2007 so eventually it was followed up on.

[

[Iron Maiden]

Well that was a while ago. In more recent outings, would Panther have succumbed so quickly to Doom?

Does Doom really need Namor, or is it even something else?

This post answers that and also continues with my previous post describing the continuing alliances of Doom and Namor. Doom attacks Black Panther and his Dora Milaje and they are outmatched by his energy blasts. One of the Dora is killed and T'Challa barely escapes with his life. This leads to his sister Shuri becoming the new Black Panther while T'Challa goes through a period of recovering from his injuries.