IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2022

[Doombot]

The short answer to the population question is: no one knows and Marvel doesn't care. In my own opinion "Atlantis" and "Atlanteans" are two different things. Atlanteans are the race, which live in settlements all over the ocean(s) and Atlantis is the ancient imperial capital. Sort of like NYC vs NYState. Everyone in New York State can call themselves "New Yorkers" but there's only one NYC.

I would even consider Lemurians "Atlanteans" as they are technically the same people, but split from the first population earlier than any others, as well as most defiantly. They consider themselves wholly separate, but of course, are not.

As for other races or species, it's a bit of a double edged sword for me. You can only suspend disbelief so many times about human or human like beings living in the sea. Mythic creatures like fish monsters or mermaids are one thing, but any other human-like races that happen to also live in the sea is pushing it for me. It's hard enough just accepting the never-explained fact that surface human Atlanteans became the sub-mariners without adding other beings to the mix.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Not to mention Marvel never explains how the Atlanteans come to be and we have like 5 different backstories ranging from magic to evolution and *sigh* space alien water people. IMO it should be that Atlanteans/the Sub-Mariner race were people of the water first who developed the ability to live on land, made Atlantis, then it sank into the sea and only the people who kept to their water lineage survived while the population that intermingled too much with humans died out. But yeah, Lemurians and Atlanteans are like cousin races and anything else would be like mystical/magical mythology

[Reviresco]

Black Panther (1998) #27-29, Namor appears in these issues, basically I went back to refresh my memory and the story arc is that Lemuria has declared a state of war with Wakanda because Ororo has this child that the High Priest of Lemuria wants, both Namor and Doom are involved in this as guest stars as T'Challa handles this and even Magneto shows up. The conclusion was that Namor aids T'Challa in return he would be allowed to take the Child with him, and Namor takes her in issue 29, which causes Lemuria to withdraw from the war with Wakanda and focus on Namor. I still haven't found out if this was followed up on anywhere else, but it seemed by the end that Namor had someone gained a foothold over Lemuria. I will continue to search to see if anything came of this.



edit to add: I can't recall any Lemurian plot that was as big as this one in the years after this, however The Defenders 2011, say Namor rules over all the oceans as you've mentioned Rev he is more of a moderator than a strict ruler, and that would include Lemuria imo, but it's very vague and not like concrete that he does rule them.

Ah, that's the Sturm and Drang arc in Priest's Black Panther. But that was Deviant Lemuria, not underwater Lemuria.

Right! Fraction's take on Namor's rulership of all the oceans was in that Defenders run. But I don't think Lemuria was mentioned, and it has almost always been it's own kingdom.

It wasn't a huge arc, but it is more recent than Sturm and Drang -- I'll see if I can find that Waid Hulk Lemuria arc.

[Reviresco]

The short answer to the population question is: no one knows and Marvel doesn't care. In my own opinion "Atlantis" and "Atlanteans" are two different things. Atlanteans are the race, which live in settlements all over the ocean(s) and Atlantis is the ancient imperial capital. Sort of like NYC vs NYState. Everyone in New York State can call themselves "New Yorkers" but there's only one NYC.

I would even consider Lemurians "Atlanteans" as they are technically the same people, but split from the first population earlier than any others, as well as most defiantly. They consider themselves wholly separate, but of course, are not.

The NY analogy is pretty much how I see it, also.

And yes, the Lemurians are basically an offshoot of the Atlanteans, who left the Atlantic to 'found' their own country. They look slightly different because allegedly they were effected by their constant exposure to a relic of Set.

As for other races or species, it's a bit of a double edged sword for me. You can only suspend disbelief so many times about human or human like beings living in the sea. Mythic creatures like fish monsters or mermaids are one thing, but any other human-like races that happen to also live in the sea is pushing it for me. It's hard enough just accepting the never-explained fact that surface human Atlanteans became the sub-mariners without adding other beings to the mix.

I don't have too much of a problem with other ocean breathing humanoids in the MU. Partly because the ocean is so vast and so unexplored. Plus, on the surface of the MU, we've got plenty of air breathing humanoids. It really depends on HOW they are introduced and used. I don't particularly care for endless and needless retcons or reveals that rewrite everything we knew before!!!

[Doombot]

I don't have too much of a problem with other ocean breathing humanoids in the MU. Partly because the ocean is so vast and so unexplored. Plus, on the surface of the MU, we've got plenty of air breathing humanoids. It really depends on HOW they are introduced and used. I don't particularly care for endless and needless retcons or reveals that rewrite everything we knew before!!!

For me, the difference is, it would have been a complete miracle of nature (if it was nature) for the Atlanteans to become sub-mariners. Just that once. For it to have happened multiple times makes the suspension of even shaky comic book disbelief pretty hard to chew. The reason it's easier with surface humanoids is because all humans are land based air breathing mammals. You can make crazy offshoots and strange races in all kinds of wacky places like Attilan or The Savage Land or have mutants, because they're terrestrial air breathing mammals, you don't have to have the additional step of them somehow developing the ability to live and breathe underwater. Mammals returned to marine life just a handful of times and it took millions of years as well as changing their bodies completely. I know I'm taking comicbook nerdery too seriously, but hey, here we are lol


As for that Panther panel, isn't it super weird to see Namor as a brunette with body hair? lol

[Reviresco]

For me, the difference is, it would have been a complete miracle of nature (if it was nature) for the Atlanteans to become sub-mariners. Just that once. For it to have happened multiple times makes the suspension of even shaky comic book disbelief pretty hard to chew. The reason it's easier with surface humanoids is because all humans are land based air breathing mammals. You can make crazy offshoots and strange races in all kinds of wacky places like Attilan or The Savage Land or have mutants, because they're terrestrial air breathing mammals, you don't have to have the additional step of them somehow developing the ability to live and breathe underwater. Mammals returned to marine life just a handful of times and it took millions of years as well as changing their bodies completely. I know I'm taking comicbook nerdery too seriously, but hey, here we are lol


As for that Panther panel, isn't it super weird to see Namor as a brunette with body hair? lol

Heh! It certainly does.

Hmmm. Well, I don't think the other undersea humanoids are exactly mammals or of the human race. I mean, I don't think the Faceless Ones or the Old Kings of Atlantis are necessarily mammals who returned to the sea.

[Reviresco]

So Michael Waldron, the writer of the new Dr. Strange movie was interviewed by Variety and, amazingly, they actually asked about Namor.

VARIETY: How does bringing the Illuminati into this movie work? Do you go to Kevin Feige and say, “I want to bring Patrick Stewart and Anson Mount back? Can we do that?”

MW: That’s kind of a combination of us putting forth, “Well, what if we did this?” But also, Kevin’s as excited about this stuff as we are, so sometimes those ideas are coming from Kevin saying, “Well, what if we got so and so? I’m gonna do it! I’m gonna make the call!” So he’s as excited about all that stuff as any of us. It’s a big, geeky team effort to see what we can assemble for that team.


VARIETY: Was Namor ever a possibility?

[MW: We] talked about him, because he’s certainly an original member of the Illuminati. But I think Marvel has other plans for him in the MCU. And so he didn’t make his way in this particular movie.

https://variety.com/2022/film/news/d...os-1235263318/



Uhn huhn. So, I'm expected to believe that Marvel does NOT have plans for REED RICHARDS, with an FF movie coming, and therefore he could appear as part of the Illuminati? Or that Marvel does NOT have plans for Professor X, so it was okay for him to be in DS: MoM as an Illuminati?

No, I think the first question reveals that Feige has no interest in, no excitement for Namor, and thus, their plans for him in the MCU are for him to NOT appear at all.

[Doombot]

Heh! It certainly does.

Hmmm. Well, I don't think the other undersea humanoids are exactly mammals or of the human race. I mean, I don't think the Faceless Ones or the Old Kings of Atlantis are necessarily mammals who returned to the sea.

Ah okay we weren't really talking about the same thing then I think, the Faceless Ones are evil devil/imp things, and I don't really even think about the Old Kings, I'm not a fan of the idea of them, I would classify all of them as creatures.

[Reviresco]

Okay, found it!

It was in the Indestructible Hulk #4 and #5 by Mark Waid

[ImperiusWrecked]

Ah, that's the Sturm and Drang arc in Priest's Black Panther. But that was Deviant Lemuria, not underwater Lemuria.

Right! Fraction's take on Namor's rulership of all the oceans was in that Defenders run. But I don't think Lemuria was mentioned, and it has almost always been it's own kingdom.

It wasn't a huge arc, but it is more recent than Sturm and Drang -- I'll see if I can find that Waid Hulk Lemuria arc.

I didn't even know there was 2 Lemurias, I just figured they had rebranded Lemuria for the modern audience. *sigh*

So Michael Waldron, the writer of the new Dr. Strange movie was interviewed by Variety and, amazingly, they actually asked about Namor.



https://variety.com/2022/film/news/d...os-1235263318/



Uhn huhn. So, I'm expected to believe that Marvel does NOT have plans for REED RICHARDS, with an FF movie coming, and therefore he could appear as part of the Illuminati? Or that Marvel does NOT have plans for Professor X, so it was okay for him to be in DS: MoM as an Illuminati?

No, I think the first question reveals that Feige has no interest in, no excitement for Namor, and thus, their plans for him in the MCU are for him to NOT appear at all.

To he honest I'm glad Namor didn't show up just to be offed in one scene. As for Reed, I feel like they are testing the waters to gain people's reactions to the FF. I just don't want Namor's first onscreen appearance to be one where he gets nerfed :/

Okay, found it!

It was in the Indestructible Hulk #4 and #5 by Mark Waid

thanks Rev!

[K7P5V]

As for that Panther panel, isn't it super weird to see Namor as a brunette with body hair? lol

If you think that's weird, you should check out red-haired Namor wearing red trunks...

[kevlon]

Thank you for all the great answers! That's really helpful

[Reviresco]

I didn't even know there was 2 Lemurias, I just figured they had rebranded Lemuria for the modern audience. *sigh*

There's actually 3. Like Atlantis, there was a pre-Cataclysm Lemuria. It shows up in Marvel's REH / Conan stuff. In the original Tales of Atlantis that were back ups in the Subby book while Bill Everett was dealing with his illness, Lemuria and Atlantis were at war, and it was in fighting off the Lemurians, that Atlantis was destroyed.

The retcon of the Eternals ... or trying to retcon the Eternals into the MU, ended up putting the Deviants on Lemuria and making the Cataclysm all about the Celestials and Eterernals -- which I thinks sucks, but whatever. However, I'm not sure if they are now saying that REH's Lemuria was actually a continent of Deviants or not?? I think they are still saying that it was a hidden part of REH's Lemuria. Anyway, when it sank, the offshoot of Atlanteans that left the city, settled in the sunken ruins, while the Deviants were creeping around in some tunnels in another part of the continent, IIRC.

Here's some maps:






All of which goes back to one of my reasons for discounting the 2002 Tsunami Namor as in continuity. The Pacific was and has been the Lemurian sphere. The Atlantic was the Atlantean sphere. I have a hard time imaging Priest King Naga being totally okay with the Atlanteans setting in the Pacific.

Now, Parker's Oceanus ... well, lets just say the Lemurians are diminished. And IIRC, the Atlanteans HAD moved to the Pacific for the X-Men's Utopia, so it could have been like a back up, for when things inevitably went South.

To he honest I'm glad Namor didn't show up just to be offed in one scene. As for Reed, I feel like they are testing the waters to gain people's reactions to the FF. I just don't want Namor's first onscreen appearance to be one where he gets nerfed :/



thanks Rev!

You are welcome! I'd almost forgotten about it myself. Need to re-read it.


As for the Illuminati ... well, I think that was a waste for the movie. But I put it all down to fanservice. And maybe hinting at the mutants entrance.

You don't think Namor is going to be nerfed and then some in a Black Panther movie? ;p IF Namor was going to be in Black Panther, it would have been a great hint. He wouldn't necessarily have to get killed. They could have done that scene from AvX in the Namor and Wanda fight. Regardless, I still contend that Feige has zero interest in Namor and that's why we don't have him in the MCU, despite other people wanting to use him.

[ImperiusWrecked]

There's actually 3. Like Atlantis, there was a pre-Cataclysm Lemuria. It shows up in Marvel's REH / Conan stuff. In the original Tales of Atlantis that were back ups in the Subby book while Bill Everett was dealing with his illness, Lemuria and Atlantis were at war, and it was in fighting off the Lemurians, that Atlantis was destroyed.

The retcon of the Eternals ... or trying to retcon the Eternals into the MU, ended up putting the Deviants on Lemuria and making the Cataclysm all about the Celestials and Eterernals -- which I thinks sucks, but whatever. However, I'm not sure if they are now saying that REH's Lemuria was actually a continent of Deviants or not?? I think they are still saying that it was a hidden part of REH's Lemuria. Anyway, when it sank, the offshoot of Atlanteans that left the city, settled in the sunken ruins, while the Deviants were creeping around in some tunnels in another part of the continent, IIRC.

Here's some maps:






All of which goes back to one of my reasons for discounting the 2002 Tsunami Namor as in continuity. The Pacific was and has been the Lemurian sphere. The Atlantic was the Atlantean sphere. I have a hard time imaging Priest King Naga being totally okay with the Atlanteans setting in the Pacific.

Now, Parker's Oceanus ... well, lets just say the Lemurians are diminished. And IIRC, the Atlanteans HAD moved to the Pacific for the X-Men's Utopia, so it could have been like a back up, for when things inevitably went South.





You are welcome! I'd almost forgotten about it myself. Need to re-read it.


As for the Illuminati ... well, I think that was a waste for the movie. But I put it all down to fanservice. And maybe hinting at the mutants entrance.

You don't think Namor is going to be nerfed and then some in a Black Panther movie? ;p IF Namor was going to be in Black Panther, it would have been a great hint. He wouldn't necessarily have to get killed. They could have done that scene from AvX in the Namor and Wanda fight. Regardless, I still contend that Feige has zero interest in Namor and that's why we don't have him in the MCU, despite other people wanting to use him.

I don't read conan but it sure seems like alot of pre fall history happens there, which comics do you think is best for reading to get all the info on that?

At best for BP2 we will get the whole "Namor was bad but then he was manipulated/finds out the humans aren't so bad and is now good" route or something. I personally would love an account of Namor's story on screen from his PoV where he is the hero to Atlantis but I'm trying to keep the bar low here for BP2, the director made a very sympathetic villain with Killmonger, so I'm hoping he can do the same with Anti-Hero Namor. However if we don't get a trailer, a promo pic, SOMETHING this summer then I will be concerned that Namor isn't showing up.

[Reviresco]

I don't read conan but it sure seems like alot of pre fall history happens there, which comics do you think is best for reading to get all the info on that?

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how much is relevant to Namor, as most of it is in those Tales of Atlantis. And nothing mentions Cleito, IIRC. There's alot of Serpent Men and Set, though. And actually, the pre-Catacylsm Atlantis stories are in Kull, not Conan, who happens after the first cataclysm but before the second. There's also a few stories in Thongor of Lemuria, but I don't recall those being particularly relevant. Marvel has actually collected the Kull stories in 3 Omnibus.











If you check out this link, it talks about the comic collections. I didn't realize that Dark Horse had published the Marvel stuff earlier, also. They might be more affordable. Actually, the comics themselves are probably pretty cheap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kull_of_Atlantis#Comics



The ones I need to track down are about the pre-Cataclysm sorceress Zhered-Na.