IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2022

[Doombot]

It shouldn't have been any real world culture at all, it should have been it's own thing, almost alien to us. Atlantis should have been so old IT influenced the cultures of ancient antiquity, not the other way around. Now you have Disney trying to shoehorn a very real culture from Mesoamerica into the Namor mythos and then having TWO "highly advanced", hidden, secretive, POC kingdoms facing off against each other and ends up being potentially borderline embarrassingly offensive to everyone.

Disney didn't have it in them to just create an ancient mythic society? It feels extremely cynical to go the path they did.

All that, and the Twitterverse is already mudslinging in every post I've seen today, with people either tearing the new designs apart, general rude, ignorant and mocking posts or flinging accusations of racism against any critical opinions. I will be avoiding all social media outlets regarding Namor and this film for a long time.

[PlatinumThorns]

If Namor and Atlantis were to be based off of a RL culture and not the classic Greco Roman ones which ones would you have gone with?

Wouldn't it make more sense to base Atlantis off of a real life tropical society? Polyenisan is likely off the table because it would invite more comparisons with Mamoa's Aquaman.

But still there are tons of cultures that have a connection/mythology with the sea. Look at the Carribeans, Indonesia, Kerala (India) and many other South Asian country or basically any society that lives near a coast.

This just sounds like Marvel overcompensating trying to compete with DC (even though the latter is far behind) and are going to end up with an egg on their face instead. And that's even before we get into how Chadwick's death and Letitia being anti-vacc has already messed up this production.

Egg on their face? You act like Marvel Studios hasn't ever deviated from the source material in the past 10 years.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I have a feeling Imp is out there somewhere like this after the confirmation of Namor:



Meanwhile, me and Rev:

LMAO! Yeah basically ;P , like in all honesty I don't hate it at all, in fact there is lots of interesting things going on here and while I understand both of your concerns and I have plenty of my own that I am trying to write out without it being like 20 pages long, I am still waiting to see everything in context before deciding if the change helps or hinders the characters. I can't wait to see y'all's expressions when the Namora leak drops. lololol. spoilers:

Or should I say Kymaera? hehe. It does make me wonder why they didn't just use Nita's character

end of spoilers

[Reviresco]

Egg on their face? You act like Marvel Studios hasn't ever deviated from the source material in the past 10 years.

I don't think Marvel has deviated from the source material as much as they have with Namor. Now, whether that ends up being a bust for them ... well, it will be hard to tell, given the death of Boseman and other problems BP 2 has had to deal with.

[Magmaster12]

Atlantis Legend may have been in reference to the Sea People who attacked Egypt and lead to the bronze age collapse.

[Reviresco]

LMAO! Yeah basically ;P , like in all honesty I don't hate it at all, in fact there is lots of interesting things going on here and while I understand both of your concerns and I have plenty of my own that I am trying to write out without it being like 20 pages long, I am still waiting to see everything in context before deciding if the change helps or hinders the characters. I can't wait to see y'all's expressions when the Namora leak drops. lololol. spoilers:

Or should I say Kymaera? hehe. It does make me wonder why they didn't just use Nita's character

end of spoilers

LOL! That's out of nowhere. My money is still on Andromeda.

Isn't the context that Namor is now Mayan from someplace that is not Atlantis?

The MCU has robbed Namor at every turn. I don't expect this to turn out any different. Even if the MCU Namor succeeds, I fear it will be at the cost of the 616 Namor. Editorial has already shown they just don't care, and will probably sacrifice Bill Everett's Namor for movie synergy, and do it badly. Yes, my pessimism is showing.

[ImperiusWrecked]

LOL! That's out of nowhere. My money is still on Andromeda.

Isn't the context that Namor is now Mayan from someplace that is not Atlantis?

The MCU has robbed Namor at every turn. I don't expect this to turn out any different. Even if the MCU Namor succeeds, I fear it will be at the cost of the 616 Namor. Editorial has already shown they just don't care, and will probably sacrifice Bill Everett's Namor for movie synergy, and do it badly. Yes, my pessimism is showing.

Having lived through The Maximoff Twins Mcu to Comics disaster, I know your concerns are justified. I honestly wish Marvel would keep the MCU and Comics separate but we know their track record. I would love to have both versions ans not cut one to keep the other.

I only know as much as everyone else knows in regards to details, all we know is the Atlanteans/Namor will come from a Ancient Mesoamerican origin. And honestly I do wonder if she is Andromeda, it would make more sense if she was with the look/vibe she gave off as a spoilers:

warrior woman

end of spoilers type. Plus Andromeda is Attuma's daughter so there is more family drama there.

I remember saying that I thought the Kiber Island incident might be the base for the Plot for BP2 so I will be interested to know if I was right.

[Overhazard]

I admit that while I do like mesoamerican mythology, to do this with namor seems a little out out of place, I get that he can't be a mutant, I mean they could have at least made him the avatar of Chalchiuhtlicue, the aztec goddess of the sea, though I suppose that name would be hard to pronounce.

[Reviresco]

Having lived through The Maximoff Twins Mcu to Comics disaster, I know your concerns are justified. I honestly wish Marvel would keep the MCU and Comics separate but we know their track record. I would love to have both versions ans not cut one to keep the other.

I only know as much as everyone else knows in regards to details, all we know is the Atlanteans/Namor will come from a Ancient Mesoamerican origin. And honestly I do wonder if she is Andromeda, it would make more sense if she was with the look/vibe she gave off as a spoilers:

warrior woman

end of spoilers type. Plus Andromeda is Attuma's daughter so there is more family drama there.

I remember saying that I thought the Kiber Island incident might be the base for the Plot for BP2 so I will be interested to know if I was right.

Yes, there's the Attuma connection, though if the guy playing Attuma is who folks are saying, he's awful young to have a grown daughter. But there is that connection, plus, Andromeda is the only Atlantean that Hickman knows of, and uses, and the MCU loves Hickman -- which is why we've got Namor in a Black Panther movie. ugh.

Kiber Island involved both countries knowing about each other and smuggled tech, didn't it?

I would for SOMEONE at Marvel Editorial who cared about Namor, and would support and protect the character. But sadly that isn't the case.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Yes, there's the Attuma connection, though if the guy playing Attuma is who folks are saying, he's awful young to have a grown daughter. But there is that connection, plus, Andromeda is the only Atlantean that Hickman knows of, and uses, and the MCU loves Hickman -- which is why we've got Namor in a Black Panther movie. ugh.

Kiber Island involved both countries knowing about each other and smuggled tech, didn't it?

I would for SOMEONE at Marvel Editorial who cared about Namor, and would support and protect the character. But sadly that isn't the case.

Yes, from Defenders (1972) #84



It would make more sense to make Namor an Anti Hero type and to be honest this storyline is very good in terms of Namor's part etc. unlike anything with Namor & Black Panther post Phoenix Namor. As for Attuma, well Atlanteans are long lived, so I tend to not care so much of they both look near the same age and it's just part of the suspension of disbelief one goes into fantasy stories with.

I hope this will spark Marvel to get off their butts and get someone on a long ongoing Namor comic.

[KurtW95]

It looks horrendous. I hate that people have the gall to think they can improve upon characters that have been around longer than themselves. Every time, their so-called improvements are disastrous drivel.

[Mantis-Ray]

I'm curious what exactly is wrong with the design and Mesoamerican elements?

I never had much interest in the character though I appreciate how he's more of a jerky hero. So I'm coming from a completely neutral standpoint and I'm interested why Namor fans dislike it.

[Doombot]

I'm curious what exactly is wrong with the design and Mesoamerican elements?

I never had much interest in the character though I appreciate how he's more of a jerky hero. So I'm coming from a completely neutral standpoint and I'm interested why Namor fans dislike it.

I'm sure there will be lots of Namor fans who do and will like it. There is also nothing wrong with the designs and Mesoamerican elements themselves, although there will be people who argue there is, but designs will come down to personal tastes.

The issue some, including myself, will have, is that Namor already has a history. An 80 year history, in which Namor has never been Mayan or Mesoamerican even in an Alternate Universe story. This MCU Namor will be radically different than what has been long established. The most comic Namor fans can hope for at this point is that some of his core elements survive to make it to the film version, because his history, his look, even his family lineage are now different. His father certainly will not be a white man named McKenzie, and the Atlanteans are not even Atlanteans now either. We can see Attuma is blue skinned and Namor is not, so the biracial element of his character is still there, we can assume anyway. But if the "Atlanteans" are now just descendants of the Maya, and one of Namor's parents is a blue skinned descendant of the Maya and one is, I'm guessing, a surface descendant of ..also the Maya? Then where is the cultural clash of Namor being "born of two worlds"? Anyway, you can see it's just the tip of the iceberg for questions and changes it makes to the character.

Pick another character to do this to and see how and what changes it makes to that character. Since it's a Black Panther film, what if it was done to T'Challa? What if finally after never having been made in live action before, Black Panther fans finally learned there would be a film based on the hero and then discovered Wakanda was actually going to be renamed and moved from Africa to say, India? What if there were a secretive, hidden, city state, deep within the Indian sub-continent that was never colonized, never by the Islamic waves that came from the west, nor the British? T'Challa was now an Indian hero and they worshipped a Tiger God instead of a panther? How would Black Panther fans feel if that happened? (You can of course argue that being African is more central and important to T'Challa's and the Pather's character and history than other characters, even Namor's, but I'm playing Devil's Advocate)

[Reviresco]

I'm curious what exactly is wrong with the design and Mesoamerican elements?

I never had much interest in the character though I appreciate how he's more of a jerky hero. So I'm coming from a completely neutral standpoint and I'm interested why Namor fans dislike it.

Namor is far more than a jerky hero, but that often seems to be the modern take on him in far too many guest appearances.

I don't have a problem with the design itself -- there's tons of cool designs in Mesoamerica, but does it work for an underwater character? Does having a surface animal god work for an underwater character? It would be like Thor being changed to the god of the tanning bed. Or Black Panther being changed to Black Pufferfish.

The MCU is basically eliminating Namor's entire 83 year history and his country and culture. As a Namor fan, why would I be happy about that? Besides the complete erasure of Namor's connections and place in the MU, they are deleting all the connections they've built up for his country. Atlantis' connections to REH world and Set, and Dr. Strange's magics, and the Greco Roman pantheon, with literal stories with Neptune. Again, I don't think Thor fans would be thrilled if the MCU made him a Aztec animal god. Nor would Black Panther fans be happy if they made him Asian and set Wakanda in the middle of China. Likewise, as a Namor fan, I don't want his history and culture stripped from him.

I also think the appropriation of the Mesoamerican culture for the Atlantis story is problematic, especially given the racist connections made in the late 19th century. Nor do I think setting up a conflict between Blacks and Hispanics is a good idea.

[Reviresco]

I'm sure there will be lots of Namor fans who do and will like it. There is also nothing wrong with the designs and Mesoamerican elements themselves, although there will be people who argue there is, but designs will come down to personal tastes.

The issue some, including myself, will have, is that Namor already has a history. An 80 year history, in which Namor has never been Mayan or Mesoamerican even in an Alternate Universe story. This MCU Namor will be radically different than what has been long established. The most comic Namor fans can hope for at this point is that some of his core elements survive to make it to the film version, because his history, his look, even his family lineage are now different. His father certainly will not be a white man named McKenzie, and the Atlanteans are not even Atlanteans now either. We can see Attuma is blue skinned and Namor is not, so the biracial element of his character is still there, we can assume anyway. But if the "Atlanteans" are now just descendants of the Maya, and one of Namor's parents is a blue skinned descendant of the Maya and one is, I'm guessing, a surface descendant of ..also the Maya? Then where is the cultural clash of Namor being "born of two worlds"? Anyway, you can see it's just the tip of the iceberg for questions and changes it makes to the character.

Pick another character to do this to and see how and what changes it makes to that character. Since it's a Black Panther film, what if it was done to T'Challa? What if finally after never having been made in live action before, Black Panther fans finally learned there would be a film based on the hero and then discovered Wakanda was actually going to be renamed and moved from Africa to say, India? What if there were a secretive, hidden, city state, deep within the Indian sub-continent that was never colonized, never by the Islamic waves that came from the west, nor the British? T'Challa was now an Indian hero and they worshipped a Tiger God instead of a panther? How would Black Panther fans feel if that happened? (You can of course argue that being African is more central and important to T'Challa's and the Pather's character and history than other characters, even Namor's, but I'm playing Devil's Advocate)

Exactly. And much better explained than my attempt. Thank you.

I'd argue that Namor being biracial and a water breather from an ancient hidden underwater country (which we weren't even sure would happen until we saw Attuma today) is as core to Namor as being Black and from Africa is for T'challa.

I'm fine with the costumes for a Mesoamerican hero -- though I think the conflations of Aztec and Mayan is problematic, but I don't know enough to differentiate. Of course, don't get me started on their names. SMH But that first one would work fine with an underwater race. I'm actually glad they kept Namor shirtless and in his colors. That second one -- it's the head dress that I find a bit off, for Namor.

Also, as personal preference, the goatee is a big NO from me. LOL!

It's funny how so many people on twitter have a problem with the piercings.