YIBAMBE! T’Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2022

[Ezyo1000]

Ehhhh I wouldn't really call this sociological. Its very simple and basic, everything about it is basically just "the king sucks"

There is no greater complexity or nuance to this. Exemplified by the fact absolutely no one takes responsibility for anything bad they do. Folsade forcibly activates emergency powers and uses the secret police to target T'Challa as basically a show of authority but the narrative doesn't go into the dark morality such an action is.

Instead Akili takes over, absolving her of any blame, and then Folsade blames T'Challa for everything happening despite the fact she's at least partly responsible for this mess.

There's nothing intelligent to be found here, its mostly just angst and sadness masquerading for complexity and nuance.

You've basically just described Coates run too lol. If people like it that's fine but the majority don't because it's absolutely trashcan tier writing. W behave seen what good writers can do WHILE challenging T'Challa. This ain't it.

[MindofShadow]

Pretty stunned reading this thread. This black panther book is one of my favorites out right now. I also enjoyed the early Coates run as well. I have a feeling people in this group don't like the sociological writing. I love it though, really challenges and tests Black Panthers character in meaningful ways and I thi think the past several years have been some of the best afrofuturistic world building we've seen in fiction in a while.

What exactly about Ridley's run as made you take a step back and think?

Coates tried and I can see where he was going at least. I think he missed the mark big time and he had to write characters OOC and invent stuff that never happened but I can at least see what he was TRYING to do and say.

I don't even know what Ridley is trying to say.


Oh and I 100% disagree about the afrofuturistic thing. Vehemently lol. Wakanda isn't futuristic at all anymore. Coates colonized it lol. And Ridley hasn't done anything with it. This is the most "normal" and "real life" that Wakanda has ever been.

[MindofShadow]

The marketing machine is in full force with the Wakanda book. Seeing it on places that don't generally care about comics.

Pain.


EDIT:

Also, usually the BP book is ignored in certain places (like reddit) and instead people are legit pissed at this issue.

It's like comic BP fans hit a breaking point.

[BlackClaw]

[Tracks]

Ehhhh I wouldn't really call this sociological. Its very simple and basic, everything about it is basically just "the king sucks"

There is no greater complexity or nuance to this. Exemplified by the fact absolutely no one takes responsibility for anything bad they do. Folsade forcibly activates emergency powers and uses the secret police to target T'Challa as basically a show of authority but the narrative doesn't go into the dark morality such an action is.

Instead Akili takes over, absolving her of any blame, and then Folsade blames T'Challa for everything happening despite the fact she's at least partly responsible for this mess.

There's nothing intelligent to be found here, its mostly just angst and sadness masquerading for complexity and nuance.

Reading peoples complaints, I think people are walking away from the book that they're trying to put tchalla through the mud for the sake of it. In terms of nuance, I think thats what isn't being grappled with. It's not that "the king sucks" it's that it's impossible. TChalla for all his genius simply cannot be perfect and we've had two writers who are making that a bit more clear. To your point, I don't narratively we're supposed to think any of these other characters are absolved or are any better. I think part of your frustration is thinking these characters are being portrayed as better rulers when we can plainly see them making the same, if not worse mistakes. I think thats the nuance we're seeing and what will come through. Right now TChalla IS being scapegoated for much of what's going wrong in Wakanda by the ruling class, but we can clearly see that the issues aren't with monarchy, the ills of greed and tyranny seep through every form of government. So even as we're watching TChalla blamed, we're seeing the people who took his place immediately placed in the same positions.

[Tracks]

As great as it would be on paper if it was the case, Wakanda is not Gotham.

All that mythos (good and bad, and boy have there been stinkers) building with Gotham happened over decades with A) a market that supported a lot more books than the one now, B) shamelessly used the IP’s main star/stars to bolster said books instead of crapping on them from a great height

Trying to speed run that into less than a decade while actively crapping on T’Challa does not add up to a happy ending for these franchise plans

I mean to your point, it's been almost a decade of narrative building around this new wakanda. Coates did A LOT in his first arc, but im not sure most of his space arc had lasting consequences for the nation of wakanda other than their government trying to perfect their procedures without him. Could be wrong

[Tracks]

What exactly about Ridley's run as made you take a step back and think?

Coates tried and I can see where he was going at least. I think he missed the mark big time and he had to write characters OOC and invent stuff that never happened but I can at least see what he was TRYING to do and say.

I don't even know what Ridley is trying to say.


Oh and I 100% disagree about the afrofuturistic thing. Vehemently lol. Wakanda isn't futuristic at all anymore. Coates colonized it lol. And Ridley hasn't done anything with it. This is the most "normal" and "real life" that Wakanda has ever been.

See my other comement with the general theme I think they're exploring. And re: the afrofuturism I disagree again. I think Ridley is more plainly expanding in the world that Coates built, but I'd love an example of another run that combined authentic Pan-African cultural wisdom and history. Something as simple as naming their ship the Mackandal, an overlooked Haitian revolutionary who is credited with starting the pre-rebellions that led to the revolution with Vodou was both simple and powerful in terms of grounding Wakanda in a history of African revolutions and carrying that spirit to the future. He actually took the variety of governing forms found through various African societies through history and contested them against one another, but again wakanda always evolves and transforms. Honestly not just the passage of power but the evolution of a government so quickly and seamlessly is futuristic. Not to mention the continued blending of science with aspects of various Vodoun. Ridley is picking up on some of those themes now with the new character.

I dont think other writers were really that deliberate with thebafrofuturism. Hudlin just made him perfect, but he didn't know or care to really weave in African history into it (he threw in some African American history and political conversations). Same for Hickman (I think it was?) Who wrote TChalla as a great superhero and was true to the themes that had been established (which I think people understandably moss) but again wrote more general scifi, nothing specifically afrofuturist other than the fact they were Black

[MindofShadow]

Reading peoples complaints, I think people are walking away from the book that they're trying to put tchalla through the mud for the sake of it. In terms of nuance, I think thats what isn't being grappled with. It's not that "the king sucks" it's that it's impossible. TChalla for all his genius simply cannot be perfect and we've had two writers who are making that a bit more clear. To your point, I don't narratively we're supposed to think any of these other characters are absolved or are any better. I think part of your frustration is thinking these characters are being portrayed as better rulers when we can plainly see them making the same, if not worse mistakes. I think thats the nuance we're seeing and what will come through. Right now TChalla IS being scapegoated for much of what's going wrong in Wakanda by the ruling class, but we can clearly see that the issues aren't with monarchy, the ills of greed and tyranny seep through every form of government. So even as we're watching TChalla blamed, we're seeing the people who took his place immediately placed in the same positions.

I mean, it is obvious Ridley put T'challa through the mud to get him out of Wakanda for the new series. That really can't be debated anymore.

And you can't just continually put a character "through the mud" without dragging him out of it. At some point, the character is just a dirty muddy mess and THAT is the character. And that is what they are doing to him.

And in universe, they ARE being portrayed as better.

See my other comement with the general theme I think they're exploring. And re: the afrofuturism I disagree again. I think Ridley is more plainly expanding in the world that Coates built, but I'd love an example of another run that combined authentic Pan-African cultural wisdom and history. Something as simple as naming their ship the Mackandal, an overlooked Haitian revolutionary who is credited with starting the pre-rebellions that led to the revolution with Vodou was both simple and powerful in terms of grounding Wakanda in a history of African revolutions and carrying that spirit to the future. He actually took the variety of governing forms found through various African societies through history and contested them against one another, but again wakanda always evolves and transforms. Honestly not just the passage of power but the evolution of a government so quickly and seamlessly is futuristic. Not to mention the continued blending of science with aspects of various Vodoun. Ridley is picking up on some of those themes now with the new character.

I dont think other writers were really that deliberate with thebafrofuturism. Hudlin just made him perfect, but he didn't know or care to really weave in African history into it (he threw in some African American history and political conversations). Same for Hickman (I think it was?) Who wrote TChalla as a great superhero and was true to the themes that had been established (which I think people understandably moss) but again wrote more general scifi, nothing specifically afrofuturist other than the fact they were Black

So you enjoyed the city names and T'challa's african nicknames?

[chief12d]

I mean, it is obvious Ridley put T'challa through the mud to get him out of Wakanda for the new series. That really can't be debated anymore.

And you can't just continually put a character "through the mud" without dragging him out of it. At some point, the character is just a dirty muddy mess and THAT is the character. And that is what they are doing to him.

And in universe, they ARE being portrayed as better.



So you enjoyed the city names and T'challa's african nicknames?

The Prime Minister is an incompetent tyrant and no one’s really called her out on that. If you’re having characters constantly tell T’Challa he sucks but not directing that same vitriol towards characters that are just as bad if not worse, the implication is that the character you’re coddling is a better ruler or not quite as bad. Folasade is directly complicit in the Hatut Zeraze’s rise to power and outside T’Challa being annoyed with her and the Mute Zoners acting above it all, there’s no narrative line that directly correlates her own corruption with T’Challa’s.

It very much seems like her actions are validated or at the least, a result of Akili’s own malice and not her antagonism towards T’Challa or her rabid anti-monarchical beliefs. The narrative is being very strictly constructed to make it seem like T’Challa deserves most of the blame and is the worst person in this entire story.

And to act like this isn’t being done to bench the character is frankly obtuse. Marvel has an upcoming movie where they’re gonna kill the character off, likely for the rest of the MCU’s runtime and it’s a coincidence that he’s being written as the worst possible kind of ruler in the comics? All to justify a wave of new projects focused on D-list Wakandan characters that flop anytime they get a book? I don’t think Marvel’s trying to hide the fact T’Challa’s stock has dramatically fallen with editorial and they want to marginalize the character from his own franchise so they can push Shuri, the Dora Milaje, and other garbage OCs that have clogged up the books since Coates.

And once again, the implication that before Ridley and Coates, T’Challa was written as perfect or unchallenged is borderline disrespectful. It also likely reveals a lack of reading on past material. The notion this character wasn’t complex and met with opposition within his narratives prior to 2016 is objectively untrue. The fact this falsehood keeps being brought up whenever people criticize the last few years of Black Panther stories says all I need to know about what some “fans” true priorities and goals are lol.

[Tracks]

I mean, it is obvious Ridley put T'challa through the mud to get him out of Wakanda for the new series. That really can't be debated anymore.

And you can't just continually put a character "through the mud" without dragging him out of it. At some point, the character is just a dirty muddy mess and THAT is the character. And that is what they are doing to him.

And in universe, they ARE being portrayed as better.



So you enjoyed the city names and T'challa's african nicknames?

Your first comment is my confusion. So everyone here is capable le of noting all the mistakes that each of the characters are making, contributing to a complete civil war, but narratively they're all better? I think narratively they've made it plain that TChalla contributed significantly to the current crisis and how his inability to trust is a tragic character flaw that Ridley balances against his need to be perfect as king. I get the sense that people are frustrated because they think this is just leading to TChalla being discarded which is a meta-narrative that I think is coloring predictions of the end goal of this story. Up-til-now, as has been said, there's nothing ground breaking about dragging a character through the mud and damn near every comic book arc tries to bring their characters to rock bottom. I don't think that in-of-itself is reason for critique. What I'm hearing is more general fatigue with that being done to TChalla, but it makes sense to me. For a character that talented, intelligent, and well-resourced, to sufficiently challenge him you need political crisis. This is one of the few books I've seen do that well. The x-men series has been doing it well too, but they have the benefit of not being as character driven and can focus on the overall team. I think arcs like we're seeing would probably benefit from multiple books, but we've seen that Black Panther hasn't been able to sustain a family of books just yet.

And I enjoyed the names and conversations that were thematically linked to relevant revolutionaries, philosophers, and cultures throughout the African diasporas history, definitely. Otherwise how is it authentic afrofuturism?

[MindofShadow]

The Prime Minister is an incompetent tyrant and no one’s really called her out on that. If you’re having characters constantly tell T’Challa he sucks but not directing that same vitriol towards characters that are just as bad if not worse, the implication is that the character you’re coddling is a better ruler or not quite as bad. Folasade is directly complicit in the Hatut Zeraze’s rise to power and outside T’Challa being annoyed with her and the Mute Zoners acting above it all, there’s no narrative line that directly correlates her own corruption with T’Challa’s.

Folisade emergency powers thing and ordering the death of the King (and avatar of Bast for godsake) was more tyrannical than anything T'challa has done in his entire publication history.

[Tracks]

The Prime Minister is an incompetent tyrant and no one’s really called her out on that. If you’re having characters constantly tell T’Challa he sucks but not directing that same vitriol towards characters that are just as bad if not worse, the implication is that the character you’re coddling is a better ruler or not quite as bad. Folasade is directly complicit in the Hatut Zeraze’s rise to power and outside T’Challa being annoyed with her and the Mute Zoners acting above it all, there’s no narrative line that directly correlates her own corruption with T’Challa’s.

It very much seems like her actions are validated or at the least, a result of Akili’s own malice and not her antagonism towards T’Challa or her rabid anti-monarchical beliefs. The narrative is being very strictly constructed to make it seem like T’Challa deserves most of the blame and is the worst person in this entire story.

And to act like this isn’t being done to bench the character is frankly obtuse. Marvel has an upcoming movie where they’re gonna kill the character off, likely for the rest of the MCU’s runtime and it’s a coincidence that he’s being written as the worst possible kind of ruler in the comics? All to justify a wave of new projects focused on D-list Wakandan characters that flop anytime they get a book? I don’t think Marvel’s trying to hide the fact T’Challa’s stock has dramatically fallen with editorial and they want to marginalize the character from his own franchise so they can push Shuri, the Dora Milaje, and other garbage OCs that have clogged up the books since Coates.

And once again, the implication that before Ridley and Coates, T’Challa was written as perfect or unchallenged is borderline disrespectful. It also likely reveals a lack of reading on past material. The notion this character wasn’t complex and met with opposition within his narratives prior to 2016 is objectively untrue. The fact this falsehood keeps being brought up whenever people criticize the last few years of Black Panther stories says all I need to know about what some “fans” true priorities and goals are lol.

I think you're asking for things to be spelled out a bit too plainly. It's a bit odd to me to say there's no narrative line connecting the prime minister when it can be plainly observed in the narrative.

I responded to the "benching" piece above.

Re: tchalla has never been challenged...im sure you can point me to where i said that

[Tracks]

Folisade emergency powers thing and ordering the death of the King (and avatar of Bast for godsake) was more tyrannical than anything T'challa has done in his entire publication history.

Case example

[MindofShadow]

Your first comment is my confusion. So everyone here is capable le of noting all the mistakes that each of the characters are making, contributing to a complete civil war, but narratively they're all better? I think narratively they've made it plain that TChalla contributed significantly to the current crisis

No one has said a single thing negatively to Shuri or Folisade. Hell, they are letting Shuri stay in the country and protect it when she was the first person to know about the spy program. And she broke t'challa out of Wakanda. And she broke Omo out. Why is no one yelling at her and calling her a POS? She was a former queen to no?

Where are the people rebuking Folisade for what she did?

And, in story... what did T'challa actually do to destabilize Wakanda?

[chief12d]

No one has said a single thing negatively to Shuri or Folisade. Hell, they are letting Shuri stay in the country and protect it when she was the first person to know about the spy program. And she broke t'challa out of Wakanda. And she broke Omo out. Why is no one yelling at her and calling her a POS? She was a former queen to no?

Where are the people rebuking Folisade for what she did?

And, in story... what did T'challa actually do to destabilize Wakanda?

We all know why that’s not happening lol.