Marvel's Non-Team: The Defenders Appreciation 2022

[Captain Craig]

Well, obviously a better line-up. There are too many newbs here and not enough classic members.

This. I'm skipping this mini after the first was only MEH for me.

[Factor]

I actually think Blue Marvel is a great fit for the Defenders. I can see him as a good scientific counterpoint to Strange’s mystical expertise.
America can also work well for the type of zany adventures the Defenders usually take part in (plus she has connections to Adam and the comics side could explore her ties to Strange).
I’m not a fan of Ewing’s other choices, thought.

I’d be pretty happy with something like this:

Doctor Strange (or Clea if Steve is not around)
Blue Marvel
Namor
Silver Surfer
Moondragon
Phylla-Vell
Harpy
America

+ Valkyrie/Brunnhilde if they ever bring her back

[Reviresco]

Roughly two weeks away from the 1st issue of the new series. What would you all like to see happen under Ewing's pen?

I don't know. I can't say I'm all that excited for this second installment. Other than Loki, there's really no on here that I care about. And I haven't really been all that impressed with Ewing's Loki.

I did like the first series, though it was mostly plot / high concept and not that strong on characterization. The art was fantastic, and I believe Javier Rodriguez will also be doing this art ... I'll probably trade wait.

[Lukmendes]

A little later on, Val could not fight the Executioner. She attacked him and he looked hurt from her punch, then the follow-up two panels show a much smaller Val struggling to hold him off, with the final scene having Val on the ground ready to be pounded by Executioner until Thing punches him away.

That was in Marvel Two-in-One#7, it's weird how a story with such a major development to her character (Barbara's father being killed and all) happened outside of Defenders lol.

When Val fought Meteor Man, she herself said/seemed to think she was much stronger than him and was surprised at how strong and durable he was for some reason. I believe he was said to have Cl 30 strength.

It's fine for her to be surprised, not everyday she's gonna deal with someone that strong, specially considering she's new to the world, this is Meteor Man's third appearance and she clearly didn't know about him.

Still weird he suddenly got buffed to be that much stronger than Spidey, but whatever.

Val was supposed to be much stronger than Spidey even back then.

And MTU#34 didn't fail to show it at least.

When Val fought Luke and the entire time Luke was in the book, Val seemed stronger than him and he seemed to feel that way as well.

Val got knocked over by the people because at that time (which they were beginning to explore in the book), Val was not up to her full demi-goddess powers nor height and weight. As Brunhilde, Val is 6'3" 475 pounds. But as the Barabara Norriss version we had at that point, Val was 5'9" and 145 pounds with much less strength. So that makes sense.

Unless her power flunctuates, it's still weird for her to be knocked down by some civilians, specially when in Defenders#12 she was knocked down by then, and in MTU#34, the super human Meteor Man also hit her on the back of the head and she only got annoyed at it.

On the other hand, stuff like that happens, there's that very embarassing time Spidey got knocked down by aunt May of all people in ASM#114, though, he had an ulcer that was fucking him up, so that can be used as an excuse at least (Though I don't think the ulcer is mentioned when he gets knocked down).

Yes, as I stated previously in this thread, Luke started off at 3 tons. He mysteriously gravitated to 8-10 tons some years later, then up to 25. Nowadays, he is Cl 50.

Handbook entries, whether they mean the actual tonnages or not, still need to be compared in terms of what is written. So a Cl 3 who can lift 25 tons Vs a Cl 10 who can lift 100 tons, can still be compared and contrasted in terms of Cl 3 and Cl 10. The actual amount of weight they can or cannot lift is one thing, but the Class they are in is supposed to be indicative of power level, so a Cl 3 is never stronger than a Cl 10 and there can still be useful and meaningful discussions around the Classes.

The problem is that handbook shit may give arbitrary numbers to characters too, Jessica Drew Spider-Woman gets a 4 in durability, that's higher than Spidey and same as Valkyrie's lol.

Yep, that was back when Luke's strength was supposed to be in the 3 ton range, which would make him weaker than Spidey. That said, if Luke's skin was "steel hard", Spidey should have broken his hands punching him. But comics.

I mean Spidey was ripping metal without that much effort even in his early days, "steel hard" skin could at best hurt his hand, but not break it, and that's assuming we care about realistic injuries in comics lol.

More recently, Luke did enjoy somewhat of a strength increase as an Avenger, but I'm not sure to what extent. He was able to solo the far stronger Proxima Midnight briefly, although she drew blood and cracked his ribs.

I remember getting the impression he's not that far below Thing in strength.

Personally, I'm fine with Luke being weaker than Spider-Man, since he really doesn't care to use the Power Man name anyway. No point in having a moniker that he'll never live up to anyway in the MU.

I think at this point nerfing him doesn't work anymore, he had his own feats and there are probably fans who like him being strong, but maybe he could get some of his agility back too? I don't remember him being very agile after getting his strength buffed, but then again, the quality of fights dropping means everyone got nerfed... Even Spidey doesn't look fast these days.

Spidey, like most franchise characters, tend to have varying degrees of strength increase to suit the plot. Wasn't there a story where Spider-Man basically supported a collapsing building for a few seconds -- a feat that would not only require him to be superhumanly durable, but also have elite class strength to support a building weighing hundreds, if not thousands of tons? Apologies, but I forget in which issue that was depicted.

I know what you're talking about, it was in Adjectiveless Spider-Man#98 (It was the last issue), and that's one of his most nonsensical feats, this and him defeating Firelord really should not have happened.

I'm okay with characters doing some stuff that could be considered outside of their weight class, it can lead to cool moments and whatnot, but going too far is just bad, at least for me, if anyone can casually do stuff way beyond what they usually can, then no one looks special anymore.

I actually think Blue Marvel is a great fit for the Defenders. I can see him as a good scientific counterpoint to Strange’s mystical expertise.

Yeah, Adam being part of Defenders feels right, maybe it's because he was hardly part of teams before.

+ Valkyrie/Brunnhilde if they ever bring her back

I'm not sure that'll happen so soon, think she got killed for the sake of Jane becoming Valkyrie (Which's weird 'cause Valkyrie isn't something only Brunnhilde uses, since it's a group and all, even if she was the most major member), and if that's the case, there's a higher chance of Jane becoming part of Defenders than Brunnhilde returning unfortunately.

[Phoenixx9]

That was in Marvel Two-in-One#7, it's weird how a story with such a major development to her character (Barbara's father being killed and all) happened outside of Defenders lol.

It's fine for her to be surprised, not everyday she's gonna deal with someone that strong, specially considering she's new to the world, this is Meteor Man's third appearance and she clearly didn't know about him.

Still weird he suddenly got buffed to be that much stronger than Spidey, but whatever.

And MTU#34 didn't fail to show it at least.

Unless her power flunctuates, it's still weird for her to be knocked down by some civilians, specially when in Defenders#12 she was knocked down by then, and in MTU#34, the super human Meteor Man also hit her on the back of the head and she only got annoyed at it.

On the other hand, stuff like that happens, there's that very embarassing time Spidey got knocked down by aunt May of all people in ASM#114, though, he had an ulcer that was fucking him up, so that can be used as an excuse at least (Though I don't think the ulcer is mentioned when he gets knocked down).

The problem is that handbook shit may give arbitrary numbers to characters too, Jessica Drew Spider-Woman gets a 4 in durability, that's higher than Spidey and same as Valkyrie's lol.
.

Yep, the story was 2-in-1, but they still continued the story there, with the same great artwork and feel that started in Defenders #20! That is when books had that positive stuff going on and the writers and editors really cared.

But what I meant was, this was the continuing of depowering or at least showing Val depowered to a lesser level than from Defenders #4. I think after a few issues, they decided to depower or lower Val's power quite a bit. I <<think>> it might be because of the story they started to build that took years to complete (#109) which was that: Val Barbara Norriss was a watered-down version of the true Brunhilde Valkyrie.

I was surprised that Val was surprised how strong (30 tons?) meteor Man was, although she still seemed as strong if not stronger. She should not have been surprised because she had been adventuring with the Defenders for a while at that point (Off-Hand at about issues #22-#26 or even #30-#34 of Defenders time, no?) So she had faced lots of foes and never underestimated them.

Val's power does not fluctuate per se, but what I meant was that Marvel had already begun to decrease Val's prodigious strength issues before #12, and that this was one of the outcomes: a smaller, less durable and much weaker Val. Remember how she could not get out of the twisted pipes "so impossibly strong, can't free myself" was Val's comment (if I remember correctly). But then Val completely demolished the runaway and unattended steamroller with one swipe of Dragonfang with little effort. Yeah, I know, it was to show off Dragonfang's first official demonstration of power, but still...lol.

Oh I whole-heartedly agree Handbooks are not perfect! But I do feel that the older ones were way much better than the newer ones in many ways, and accuracy is one for sure! Also, not sure the first Handbook even listed Luke's strength level (Luke the character, not Luke you, lol). Some of the numbers were from letters pages or info provided by writers in articles much later on, etc.

[Lukmendes]

Yep, the story was 2-in-1, but they still continued the story there, with the same great artwork and feel that started in Defenders #20! That is when books had that positive stuff going on and the writers and editors really cared.

Yeah once Gerber takes over I noticed an improvement in the writing quality, plus it allowed stories to slow down and not need to have big stories all the time, which improved it to me, #21 in particular is my favorite so far, since it has the characters being developed while Headmen do their thing in the background, which does make you wonder what they're gonna do, and once they do, it's spreading that stuff that makes anyone sleeping to become temporarily aggressive, and they get away with it too.

But what I meant was, this was the continuing of depowering or at least showing Val depowered to a lesser level than from Defenders #4. I think after a few issues, they decided to depower or lower Val's power quite a bit. I <<think>> it might be because of the story they started to build that took years to complete (#109) which was that: Val Barbara Norriss was a watered-down version of the true Brunhilde Valkyrie.

I do wonder if they had it planned for that long, or at least it was used to create a reason for her becoming weaker.

I was surprised that Val was surprised how strong (30 tons?) meteor Man was, although she still seemed as strong if not stronger.

Wiki says Meteor Man's strength is at 25 tons.

And I got the impression she looked stronger, since she quickly overwhelms him and he immediately decided to run away.

Although, if she wasn't stronger than him, it could be that he realized she's at least around the same level as him, and that dealing with her and Spidey at the same time could be a problem.

She should not have been surprised because she had been adventuring with the Defenders for a while at that point (Off-Hand at about issues #22-#26 or even #30-#34 of Defenders time, no?) So she had faced lots of foes and never underestimated them.

I'm checking MTU#34 again, and we're both wrong here, she doesn't comment being surprised at his strength, just annoyed at his fighting without honor, which, she honestly should've expected at this point anyways:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...90/unknown.png

Val's power does not fluctuate per se, but what I meant was that Marvel had already begun to decrease Val's prodigious strength issues before #12, and that this was one of the outcomes: a smaller, less durable and much weaker Val. Remember how she could not get out of the twisted pipes "so impossibly strong, can't free myself" was Val's comment (if I remember correctly). But then Val completely demolished the runaway and unattended steamroller with one swipe of Dragonfang with little effort. Yeah, I know, it was to show off Dragonfang's first official demonstration of power, but still...lol.

Yeah it's weird how randomly weaker she got, specially if she's supposed to be stronger than Spidey still lol.

It's also kinda weird to make her sword look stronger than her in a way, she can't break those metal pipes but the sword is strong enough to cut a steamroller like it's butter.

Now having a weapon that is more powerful than its user is not that far fetched, and it's even what happens with Thor (Even if I think it kinda hurts Thor himself), but it's just weird to show her unable to cut those pipes, making it look like her strength isn't that high, and then the sword can cut that steamroller lol.

Oh I whole-heartedly agree Handbooks are not perfect! But I do feel that the older ones were way much better than the newer ones in many ways, and accuracy is one for sure!

I would assume that stuff would be more accurate in the 80's with Shooter being around, that guy really liked continuity and consistency, it wasn't perfect (Fact he allowed Spidey of all people to defeat Firelord shows it), but it was really good.

Also, not sure the first Handbook even listed Luke's strength level (Luke the character, not Luke you, lol).

Yeah see, that's another reason why I keep pointing out "It's Luk", with a big name like Luke Skywalker, and another that occasionally gets mentioned like Luke Cage, it's more convenient to not have to specify me like this lol.

That and "Lukemendes" just doesn't look good as a username, too many "e" lol.

Some of the numbers were from letters pages or info provided by writers in articles much later on, etc.

Makes sense, I remember ASM Annual#15, which lists how strong characters are in comparison with each other, and they don't give solid numbers, it was basically said "He can lift heavy stuff and stronger than someone like Spider-Woman (Jessica, was probably made before Julia showed up, or Jessica was depowered) is weaker than characters like Thing".

This was two years before the first handbook came out by the way, here are the pages:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...56/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...66/unknown.png

Even though Jim Shooter is Editor-in-Chief here, some stuff here is just grossly wrong, Valkyrie and She-Hulk comment how silly it is for Spidey to classify them as being around his level at least, but Silver Surfer in that level? Come on...

Colossus should be around Thing's level too.

The first handbook at least corrected the Silver Surfer one, saying his strength is near Hulk's level.

This is not the first time direct comparisons are made too, Fantastic Four Annual#1 compares Ben's strength with Hulk and just says Hulk is stronger, but this might be one of the few times there are so many direct comparisons before handbooks came around.

At least, it can give an idea of when Marvel decided to list how many tons a character can lift, 'cause by 1981 that wasn't done in this list at least (Though maybe in letters and whatnot you mentioned they did), but by 1983 in that handbook, yeah, they list it there.

Anyways, I checked out the first handbook (From 1983) and it doesn't list what Luke Cage's strength is exactly, but it does list his feats:



Listing feats is honestly more interesting, even if it's not as easy to look at it, because at least it makes the character look that strong, instead of just arbitrarily given numbers that may or may not match with what actually happens on panel.

Still though, I guess Marvel didn't decide at the time how much he can lift, Spidey's entry mentions he can lift 10 tons, and Namorita's mentions she's at about 3 tons, Valkyrie at 45, stuff like that, meanwhile Luke Cage's puts more emphasis into how much he can tank, which I guess is fair to put more emphasis in that, but still odd to not mention how strong he is, specially considering he used to go by "Power Man" lol.

Oh also, at least once I know that a comic directly mentioned a character's lifting limit back then:



(Fantastic Four#276)

And it does mention improvements too, since the handbook from 1983 says her limit was at around 50 tons, and F4#276 talks like she's been lifting at around 70 tons for a while before it improved to 75, while it could be a mistake, it can also make it look like it's a big boost in improvement (And it's acknowledged in her entry in the second volume's handbook too), and again, Marvel could say something similar about Luke Cage, though it'd sound kinda absurd to go from 3 tons to near 50, but it'd be somethin' I guess lol.

Also, checking out those handbooks, I'm kinda surprised how much above they put Valkyrie's strength compared to Sif, both mention that Asgardian women generally have 25 tons in strength, but Sif's is at 30 tons while Valkyrie's is at 45, considering they're both warrior women, that's a huge difference, thought Sif would at least be at 35 lol.

[Phoenixx9]

I do wonder if they had it planned for that long, or at least it was used to create a reason for her becoming weaker.

Wiki says Meteor Man's strength is at 25 tons.
And I got the impression she looked stronger, since she quickly overwhelms him and he immediately decided to run away.
I'm checking MTU#34 again, and we're both wrong here, she doesn't comment being surprised at his strength, just annoyed at his fighting without honor, which, she honestly should've expected at this point anyways:

Yeah it's weird how randomly weaker she got, specially if she's supposed to be stronger than Spidey still lol.

I would assume that stuff would be more accurate in the 80's with Shooter being around, that guy really liked continuity and consistency, it wasn't perfect (Fact he allowed Spidey of all people to defeat Firelord shows it), but it was really good.

Yeah see, that's another reason why I keep pointing out "It's Luk", with a big name like Luke Skywalker, and another that occasionally gets mentioned like Luke Cage, it's more convenient to not have to specify me like this lol.
That and "Lukemendes" just doesn't look good as a username, too many "e" lol.

Makes sense, I remember ASM Annual#15, which lists how strong characters are in comparison with each other, and they don't give solid numbers, it was basically said "He can lift heavy stuff and stronger than someone like Spider-Woman (Jessica, was probably made before Julia showed up, or Jessica was depowered) is weaker than characters like Thing"

Even though Jim Shooter is Editor-in-Chief here, some stuff here is just grossly wrong, Valkyrie and She-Hulk comment how silly it is for Spidey to classify them as being around his level at least, but Silver Surfer in that level? Come on...

The first handbook at least corrected the Silver Surfer one, saying his strength is near Hulk's level.

Still though, I guess Marvel didn't decide at the time how much he can lift, Spidey's entry mentions he can lift 10 tons, and Namorita's mentions she's at about 3 tons, Valkyrie at 45, stuff like that, meanwhile Luke Cage's puts more emphasis into how much he can tank, which I guess is fair to put more emphasis in that, but still odd to not mention how strong he is, specially considering he used to go by "Power Man" lol.

Oh also, at least once I know that a comic directly mentioned a character's lifting limit back then:
(Fantastic Four#276)

And it does mention improvements too, since the handbook from 1983 says her limit was at around 50 tons, and F4#276 talks like she's been lifting at around 70 tons for a while before it improved to 75, while it could be a mistake, it can also make it look like it's a big boost in improvement (And it's acknowledged in her entry in the second volume's handbook too), and again, Marvel could say something similar about Luke Cage, though it'd sound kinda absurd to go from 3 tons to near 50, but it'd be somethin' I guess lol.

I do think that they were putting a plan together to make Valkyrie weaker right after her premiere since this is what happened in the pages. Then they began Val searching for her identity and her past, where we learned more of Barbara's past and life. So it seems this is what they had in mind, but kept getting off-track and never really completing the story until #109.

With Meteor Man, what about the scenes just before the ones you are showing? I could have sworn that Val mentions something about his strength?

The other funny thing with Val is that while Marvel made her a Warrior Woman in one sense/issue, when confronted with someone like Spidey, they forget that he is at least Cl 10, so if you are downplaying Val to Cl 10, the idea of her being this "super-strong female" really lessens when little petey parker is the same strength, lol.

Yeah, just add an "e" and make it easier for everyone, Luke.

Overall, Shooter was good for the Handbooks. I hate the newer ones power rankings and a scale of 7 does not give adequate room to cover all the characters as they should be. At least 10 are needed to properly scale things from weak humans to uber-demi-gods.

With She-Hulk, they actively showed her lifting weights to get stronger a few times. I think she was a pet fave as even when Ms Marvel II (Sharon) turned into She-thing, she was still no match. Sharon even comments that She-Hulk went from a 7:1 strength lead to a much less one and is still winning.

Namorita did start off at 3 tons (like her appearances in the Defenders and Avengers books). I believe later Handbooks had her at 10 tons, then later after some changes to 25 tons. Somewhere around 2000, when they put her in a white costume variant, she was up to 75 tons. Even Sunspot started out at about 3 tons.

With Luke, remember Kyle Nighthawk easily held him off with his double-human strength. I think it was more Luke's durability that made him look stronger than he was really. Luke also beat the original Power Man, whose strength was somewhere between 5 and 10 tons, so at that point, Luke was likely in that range as well, but with his heightened durability and anger, Luke was able to beat him.

Valkyrie (Brunhilde) is meant to be the strongest female in Asgard, so rightly she has a lead on any other female. However, I think 45 tons is WAY too low and it should be Cl 90 as Val was often hailed as the "female Thor" equivalent. I always wanted a Handbook entry with Val's Barbara Norriss stats and then her true demi-goddess form ones, which really would have been ideal for the first one and seemed logical, but no, they never did do that and have not with updates.

[JudicatorPrime]

I actually think Blue Marvel is a great fit for the Defenders. I can see him as a good scientific counterpoint to Strange’s mystical expertise.

I agree, especially since traditionally Marvel writers have always blurred the lines between magic and science that the two are almost indistinguishable. I don't know exactly what role Ewing has in mind for Adam in Defenders Beyond, but I really hope that we see a few more of his inventions/innovations. All of the great minds in Marvel tend to have a signature scientific device or achievement that other writers use in their stories. I'd love it if Adam had something similar.

America can also work well for the type of zany adventures the Defenders usually take part in (plus she has connections to Adam and the comics side could explore her ties to Strange).

As long as Ewing doesn't characterize America the same way that he did in Ultimates. Yes, she should be knowledgeable, but I hope he doesn't rehash the nonsense about her being able to defeat every member of the team only for her not to play a really dominant role in beating down opponents.

I’m not a fan of Ewing’s other choices, thought.

I'm curious to know if Ewing came up with the plot first and then added characters to fill those roles, or if he assembled the characters first and then scripted a story that caters to those characters.

I am somewhat disappointed that this group doesn't include at least one classic Defender, whether that's Doc Strange, Clea, Silver Surfer, Hulk, Red Guardian, or Namor. Silver Surfer or Namor would probably be my preferred choices.

[JudicatorPrime]

Roughly two weeks away from the 1st issue of the new series. What would you all like to see happen under Ewing's pen?

To answer my own question, just for a good laugh I'd like to see Loki get himself in a life-threatening bind and, like his father before him, attempt to summon Thor only to have Beta Ray Bill manifest. When it comes to Asgardians, a nice Walt Simonson callback always brightens my day.

[Lukmendes]

I do think that they were putting a plan together to make Valkyrie weaker right after her premiere since this is what happened in the pages. Then they began Val searching for her identity and her past, where we learned more of Barbara's past and life. So it seems this is what they had in mind, but kept getting off-track and never really completing the story until #109.

That is a long time to solve that plot lol.

With Meteor Man, what about the scenes just before the ones you are showing? I could have sworn that Val mentions something about his strength?

She doesn't fight him anywhere but those two pages, the closest thing of her being surprised at his strength is in the last pages:





Even then, she's only mentioning that his invulnerability he got from his super strength is why he didn't die from the fall.

The other funny thing with Val is that while Marvel made her a Warrior Woman in one sense/issue, when confronted with someone like Spidey, they forget that he is at least Cl 10, so if you are downplaying Val to Cl 10, the idea of her being this "super-strong female" really lessens when little petey parker is the same strength, lol.

Specially considering Asgardians are generally tougher than Spidey lol.

At least MTU#34 clearly made her be the stronger one.

Yeah, just add an "e" and make it easier for everyone, Luke. :P

But "Lukemendes" lools ugly .

Overall, Shooter was good for the Handbooks. I hate the newer ones power rankings and a scale of 7 does not give adequate room to cover all the characters as they should be. At least 10 are needed to properly scale things from weak humans to uber-demi-gods.

Yeah it's in a weird spot where they're not detailed enough, "Class 5" is between 25 to 75 tons, meaning a lot of characters are class 5 despite the gigantic power difference that is the strongest one being 3 times stronger than the weakest one, "Class 4" is silly too, since it's between 800lbs to 25 tons lol.

With She-Hulk, they actively showed her lifting weights to get stronger a few times. I think she was a pet fave as even when Ms Marvel II (Sharon) turned into She-thing, she was still no match. Sharon even comments that She-Hulk went from a 7:1 strength lead to a much less one and is still winning.

Wasn't aware Jennifer beat up She-Thing lol.

Namorita did start off at 3 tons (like her appearances in the Defenders and Avengers books). I believe later Handbooks had her at 10 tons, then later after some changes to 25 tons. Somewhere around 2000, when they put her in a white costume variant, she was up to 75 tons. Even Sunspot started out at about 3 tons.

Man, that's making it sound like starting at 3 tons is better with how Luke, Namorita and Sunspot got increases, maybe Valkyrie should've started at 3 tons to have bigger growths :P.

With Luke, remember Kyle Nighthawk easily held him off with his double-human strength.

Don't think I reached that point yet, only fight between them I saw was in #17, and Nighthawk just lifts him there, which, is pretty impressive for someone who's supposed to have just "double strength", but it doesn't mean he's stronger than Luke, if that's what you meant that is.

#25 has Luke being the who who frees Nighthawk from those serpent themed metal bars, so by that point Luke is clearly the stronger one.

I think it was more Luke's durability that made him look stronger than he was really. Luke also beat the original Power Man, whose strength was somewhere between 5 and 10 tons, so at that point, Luke was likely in that range as well, but with his heightened durability and anger, Luke was able to beat him.

Man, I didn't even know there was a Power Man before Luke lol.

Where did that happen?

Valkyrie (Brunhilde) is meant to be the strongest female in Asgard, so rightly she has a lead on any other female. However, I think 45 tons is WAY too low and it should be Cl 90 as Val was often hailed as the "female Thor" equivalent.

Yeah I was surprised when Nighthawk called her "Female Thor" in #21, though that could be just him talking more about her being Asgardian themed lol.

And my surprise was more related to how low Sif's strength is, Valkyrie is almost twice as strong as a regular female Asgardian, while Sif is only 5 tons stronger lol.

But yeah, it'd be fine if she was above 50 tons too, but I guess maybe Marvel didn't want a female character stronger than She-Hulk (Likely for her to be the strongest non-cosmic being female the same way Hulk is generally the strongest non-cosmic being male), which could explain why in the handbook's first volume, Valkyrie's strength is at 45 instead of a full 50, while Jennifer's was at a 50, but since Jennifer's strength increased a few years later, Valkyrie's strength lagged behind by comparison.

I always wanted a Handbook entry with Val's Barbara Norriss stats and then her true demi-goddess form ones, which really would have been ideal for the first one and seemed logical, but no, they never did do that and have not with updates.

Yeah, that would be a nice thing to do.

I agree, especially since traditionally Marvel writers have always blurred the lines between magic and science that the two are almost indistinguishable. I don't know exactly what role Ewing has in mind for Adam in Defenders Beyond, but I really hope that we see a few more of his inventions/innovations. All of the great minds in Marvel tend to have a signature scientific device or achievement that other writers use in their stories. I'd love it if Adam had something similar.

If Adam gets a signature science device, wonder if it'll be in some way related to what gave him his powers, kinda like Pym Particles is this to Hank Pym.

[Phoenixx9]

She doesn't fight him anywhere but those two pages, the closest thing of her being surprised at his strength is in the last pages:
Even then, she's only mentioning that his invulnerability he got from his super strength is why he didn't die from the fall.

Specially considering Asgardians are generally tougher than Spidey lol.
At least MTU#34 clearly made her be the stronger one.

Yeah it's in a weird spot where they're not detailed enough, "Class 5" is between 25 to 75 tons, meaning a lot of characters are class 5 despite the gigantic power difference that is the strongest one being 3 times stronger than the weakest one, "Class 4" is silly too, since it's between 800lbs to 25 tons lol.

Man, that's making it sound like starting at 3 tons is better with how Luke, Namorita and Sunspot got increases, maybe Valkyrie should've started at 3 tons to have bigger growths :P.

Don't think I reached that point yet, only fight between them I saw was in #17, and Nighthawk just lifts him there, which, is pretty impressive for someone who's supposed to have just "double strength", but it doesn't mean he's stronger than Luke, if that's what you meant that is.
#25 has Luke being the who who frees Nighthawk from those serpent themed metal bars, so by that point Luke is clearly the stronger one.
Man, I didn't even know there was a Power Man before Luke lol.Where did that happen?

And my surprise was more related to how low Sif's strength is, Valkyrie is almost twice as strong as a regular female Asgardian, while Sif is only 5 tons stronger lol.
Yeah, that would be a nice thing to do.

Ah, I guess we both remembered incorrectly, lol.

The thing with Val as an Asgardian but being weaker/equal to a spidey is that at this point, Val is possessed by spirit of Barbara Norriss and I keep mentioning that because that weakened Val's true strength, speed, invulnerability, removed her death sense, etc. So I understand why, but it just seems weird for a "Warrior Woman" to not be all that strong, when that was the premise for The Valkyrie. Sad!

No, you are up to it: #17 and 25 as you mention. Picture someone with super-strength Cl3 or Cl 5, whether they can lift 3 tons or 5 tons or many times that, my point was I can't see anyone with merely double human strength standing up to them to lift, move, or do anything to them. Just lifting Luke's 300 pound frame (yes, it was 300 then as opposed to 425 today!) should have been Kyle's max, but someone with that strength I don't see letting themselves being lifted. I don't know.....I was trying to tie this to Val being knocked over by the crowd as you mentioned.... PM vs PM in Luke's book like a hunnert years ago, lol.

Sif is just a normal Asgardian woman who is sl stronger than the others with high-level fighting ability. No reason she should be higher. Val is leader of the Valkyrior and an Asgardian demi-goddess. So Val should be and is substantially more powerful than Sif, but I feel Val is actually Cl 90. Val doesn't have to be the strongest female character, but she should be in the top listing.

[Lukmendes]

Ah, I guess we both remembered incorrectly, lol.

It happens, though it's more embarrassing for me 'cause I read it recently lol.

The thing with Val as an Asgardian but being weaker/equal to a spidey is that at this point, Val is possessed by spirit of Barbara Norriss and I keep mentioning that because that weakened Val's true strength, speed, invulnerability, removed her death sense, etc. So I understand why, but it just seems weird for a "Warrior Woman" to not be all that strong, when that was the premise for The Valkyrie. Sad!

Yeah even with Barbara nerfing her, she should still be pretty strong regardless, Asgardians are tough and all, and "valkyrie" ain't some random warrior type name lol.

No, you are up to it: #17 and 25 as you mention. Picture someone with super-strength Cl3 or Cl 5, whether they can lift 3 tons or 5 tons or many times that, my point was I can't see anyone with merely double human strength standing up to them to lift, move, or do anything to them. Just lifting Luke's 300 pound frame (yes, it was 300 then as opposed to 425 today!) should have been Kyle's max, but someone with that strength I don't see letting themselves being lifted.

Yeah "double strength" for Nighthawk seems to be underselling it, but then again, comics can be pretty weird on what characters' strength means, 'cause Daredevil is supposed to be just a strong human, and I think he flipped a limo once lol.

And Luke kinda reacted like he couldn't do much when Nighthawk lifted him, it was weird, it'd make somewhat more sense if Nighthawk grabbed him by his back, but even then Luke should still be able to kick him, being grabbed by his chest, yeah, punching and kicking would be easy lol.

I guess it was more so to show Luke is strong anyways, he does grab a piece of the ceiling to hit Nighthawk with even though he could do the same thing with his own hands, rule of cool and all lol.

I don't know.....I was trying to tie this to Val being knocked over by the crowd as you mentioned.... PM vs PM in Luke's book like a hunnert years ago, lol.

Thanks, that helps narrow it down lol.

Sif is just a normal Asgardian woman who is sl stronger than the others with high-level fighting ability. No reason she should be higher. Val is leader of the Valkyrior and an Asgardian demi-goddess. So Val should be and is substantially more powerful than Sif, but I feel Val is actually Cl 90. Val doesn't have to be the strongest female character, but she should be in the top listing.

Yeah I think her strength being increased if fine, but again, was just theorizing that Marvel didn't want a female character being stronger than Jennifer just like that back then, and now that I checked out something, I'm probably wrong, Carol became Binary and Frankie became Nova, both an year before the first handbook came out, and while the first volume doesn't say how strong Carol as Binary is, the second volume makes it clear she's in the "over 100 tons" category, (Something that you can get the impression before that anyways, second volume just makes it clear) so maybe it's not "She-Hulk is supposed to be the strongest female", maybe it's just "Valkyrie is supposed to be weaker than She-Hulk", who knows what they're thinking though...

[Phoenixx9]

It happens, though it's more embarrassing for me 'cause I read it recently lol.
Yeah even with Barbara nerfing her, she should still be pretty strong regardless, Asgardians are tough and all, and "valkyrie" ain't some random warrior type name lol.

Yeah "double strength" for Nighthawk seems to be underselling it, but then again, comics can be pretty weird on what characters' strength means, 'cause Daredevil is supposed to be just a strong human, and I think he flipped a limo once lol.

And Luke kinda reacted like he couldn't do much when Nighthawk lifted him, it was weird, it'd make somewhat more sense if Nighthawk grabbed him by his back, but even then Luke should still be able to kick him, being grabbed by his chest, yeah, punching and kicking would be easy lol.

I guess it was more so to show Luke is strong anyways, he does grab a piece of the ceiling to hit Nighthawk with even though he could do the same thing with his own hands, rule of cool and all lol.

Thanks, that helps narrow it down lol.

Yeah I think her strength being increased if fine, but again, was just theorizing that Marvel didn't want a female character being stronger than Jennifer just like that back then, and now that I checked out something, I'm probably wrong, Carol became Binary and Frankie became Nova, both an year before the first handbook came out, and while the first volume doesn't say how strong Carol as Binary is, the second volume makes it clear she's in the "over 100 tons" category, (Something that you can get the impression before that anyways, second volume just makes it clear) so maybe it's not "She-Hulk is supposed to be the strongest female", maybe it's just "Valkyrie is supposed to be weaker than She-Hulk", who knows what they're thinking though...

LoL, yeah, I have not read them in years. I am waiting to sit down and re-read all of that wonderful stories one of these days! I agree, even at a weakened state, The Valkyrie is not to be trifled with!

Nighthawk vs Luke Cage: So I read this as we were getting to see some of what Kyle could do (new hero stink) and showing us just how easily he could lift 300 pounds of hard man Luke, lol! Since they were meant to be team mates, I guess they did not want them to really fight in that instance.

Sorry! Try PM 21 if my brain is remembering correctly.

Carol as Binary and Frankie as Nova would be 2 cosmic females. Binary was over 100, Nova about 40 tons. I do think they want Jen She-Hulk to be the strongest female. Even Betty as she-Rulk was not more powerful than normal She-Hulk, and then they bulked and bulked and rebulked Jen till she was way above anyone. They even started calling her "Hulk" (She-Bulk, lol). I am okay with Val being at 90 tons, while the Hulks are all 100/100+, Titania at 100 tons, etc because Val is Immortal Asgardian Demi-Goddess and she has her Bewitched Blade Dragonfang!

How strong is Capt Marvel Carol these days? What about M? Sabra? Thundra got an increase/or finally listed correctly at 75 tons. What about Magdalene? Man-Killer Amazon?
(I do hope you have heard of all of these ladies!)

[Lukmendes]

Nighthawk vs Luke Cage: So I read this as we were getting to see some of what Kyle could do (new hero stink) and showing us just how easily he could lift 300 pounds of hard man Luke, lol! Since they were meant to be team mates, I guess they did not want them to really fight in that instance.

Specially considering the fight was more of a misunderstanding, so I don't think Nighthawk would be as serious compared to fighting an actual villain.

Sorry! Try PM 21 if my brain is remembering correctly.

The "thanks" wasn't sarcastic man lol.

Sorry if it sounded that way, but having a specific title does help to narrow down where it could have happened, and thanks again.

Carol as Binary and Frankie as Nova would be 2 cosmic females. Binary was over 100, Nova about 40 tons. I do think they want Jen She-Hulk to be the strongest female. Even Betty as she-Rulk was not more powerful than normal She-Hulk, and then they bulked and bulked and rebulked Jen till she was way above anyone. They even started calling her "Hulk" (She-Bulk, lol). I am okay with Val being at 90 tons, while the Hulks are all 100/100+, Titania at 100 tons, etc because Val is Immortal Asgardian Demi-Goddess and she has her Bewitched Blade Dragonfang!

Wasn't aware Betty wasn't as strong as Jennifer, but that's expected lol.

How strong is Capt Marvel Carol these days?

She lost her Binary powers once Kurt Busiek decided to include her in the Avengers, so now her powers are a nerfed version of Binary's.

As for where her strength's at, I'm not sure, she once punched Doc Green Hulk a bunch of times, and he wasn't hurt by 'em:





(Avengers#39 vol 5)

On the other hand, she gave the final punch that defeated Thanos once in the Free Comic Book Day comic that happens right before Civil War II, but that's Bendis and he's intentionally bad with power scalling, Starlin probably corrected that too lol.

I remember hearing she defeated Thor in her comic at some point, but he was without his hammer and said he'd win with it, but beating Aaron's Thor is kinda whatever...

I hear Carol may get her Binary powers back, but not sure if Marvel's gonna actually go for it.

Either way, I think she's around 50 tons nowadays, but probably can increase it with enough power absortion, I think she temporarily became Binary in Ms. Marvel's second volume too...

What about M? Sabra? Thundra got an increase/or finally listed correctly at 75 tons. What about Magdalene? Man-Killer Amazon?
(I do hope you have heard of all of these ladies!)

The ones I don't know of this list are Sabra and Man-Killer Amazon, and even the ones I know, I'm not sure where their strength level is at, can't help with that right now lol.

[Phoenixx9]

Specially considering the fight was more of a misunderstanding, so I don't think Nighthawk would be as serious compared to fighting an actual villain.

The "thanks" wasn't sarcastic man lol.
Sorry if it sounded that way, but having a specific title does help to narrow down where it could have happened, and thanks again.

She lost her Binary powers once Kurt Busiek decided to include her in the Avengers, so now her powers are a nerfed version of Binary's.
As for where her strength's at, I'm not sure, she once punched Doc Green Hulk a bunch of times, and he wasn't hurt by 'em:
Either way, I think she's around 50 tons nowadays, but probably can increase it with enough power absortion, I think she temporarily became Binary in Ms. Marvel's second volume too...

Yes, and I love the action and mystery of those issues with Luke with the Defenders. While I wish Val was there (she had left to search for herself), they survived against their stronger foes. It might have been very interesting for Val to face off against the Wrecker!

What issue are you up to reading of the Defenders? The 20's were so good, the 30's even better, the 40's very interesting indeed and I loved the climatic 50th Issue!

No worries, but I had to think about the answer--where-- as it was soooo long ago, lol.

I thought Carol was about 50 tons, but online I saw something like 92 tons described by Hank Pym as Carol's base strength without energy adding to it. Don't know if this is correct or not. I know someone had posted a scene in New Avengers where Carol dive bombed and knocked out Brunhilde Valkyrie with one punch, so I am assuming she has superior strength and durability.