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  1. #496
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchilde View Post
    I think he already did it, and the X-Men books played its part too. It’s damaged beyond repair, unless someone came with a brave theory like BobbysWorld and johhnysv75 have proposed in this same thread.

    Someone there should ban Aaron from using the Phoenix or something lol everything he does is more and more nonsense. In the current Avengers he even introduced a “Dark Phoenix” that looks like a digimon, and the fact that he made a list of people who can kill an entity that transcends mortality is hilarious.
    Here, here! He just does not get it===at all!
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]

    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."


    Like a Red Dragon, The Phoenix shall Soar in 2024!

  2. #497
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Can we keep Aaron away from the Phoenix and Percy away from Jean? Can that be our belated Xmas present?

    --
    Lucy, if you're reading this, your inbox is full again.
    Love that new avatar image, GS!
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]

    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."


    Like a Red Dragon, The Phoenix shall Soar in 2024!

  3. #498
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Can we keep Aaron away from the Phoenix and Percy away from Jean? Can that be our belated Xmas present?

    --
    Lucy, if you're reading this, your inbox is full again.
    I will free more space, thank you GS

    Also I could not agree more, Jean and the Phoenix need some time away and better character development.
    "To the X-men then, who don´t die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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  4. #499
    Fantastic Member BESTXMAN's Avatar
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    https://imgur.com/a/AwwZV7L

    Jean broke Forge and Storm up. Never forget.

  5. #500

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    Quote Originally Posted by BESTXMAN View Post
    https://imgur.com/a/AwwZV7L

    Jean broke Forge and Storm up. Never forget.
    that's 1000% on forge. He should have asked Ororo instead of assuming and never should have asked another woman to speak for the woman he said he loves.

    Jean is a true sister to Ororo.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.
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  6. #501

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    A little further back but always the forever holy x-trinity for me. X-men.
    thetrio.jpg
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    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.
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  7. #502
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I will free more space, thank you GS :)

    Also I could not agree more, Jean and the Phoenix need some time away and better character development.
    The Phoenix doesn't need character development. It needs to return to its original expression: creation, song and beauty/awe. And it needs some writer to understand that those things only happen because of the other side of its coin: destruction, silence and horror/despair. But it's not about this "dark side". That "dark side" is just part of the duality we see repeated everywhere.

    So when Percy makes Jean of all people say "What I'm saying is... without death, life is less about me... and more about us." it hurts my soul. I get what he meant, the problem is which character was saying it. Without death, there's not space/resources for new life. The Life Cycle literally stagnates. She was THE Phoenix. She should understand that within every cell of her body.

    --

    I'd save the message. I'll copy, paste and send it soon.



    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Love that new avatar image, GS!
    When I finally figure out why I was having problems making the 3D models of the 90s uniform move with the body, I got so happy I had to render some shots even though I don't have the textures/materials for the uniform yet. :)
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 01-16-2022 at 01:48 AM.

  8. #503
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    I don't think it's Percy's mandate that Jean doesn't know anything about the Phoenix. Blame Hickman and Jordan D. White.

    Also for what it's worth, Percy said Jean will have some kind of big moments in the Wolverine event. Hopefully those moments are positive and powerful.

  9. #504
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    The Phoenix doesn't need character development. It needs to return to its original expression: creation, song and beauty/awe. And it needs some writer to understand that those things only happen because of the other side of its coin: destruction, silence and horror/despair. But it's not about this "dark side". That "dark side" is just part of the duality we see repeated everywhere.
    Agreed its what made the phoenix such a strong concept, it´s about life and the cycle of death and rebirth and it´s painful to see Aaron reduces this to a mere power up for superhero batles.

    So when Percy makes Jean of all people say "What I'm saying is... without death, life is less about me... and more about us." it hurts my soul. I get what he meant, the problem is which character was saying it. Without death, there's not space/resources for new life. The Life Cycle literally stagnates. She was THE Phoenix. She should understand that within every cell of her body.
    I think Percy knows this the problem is that he was using Jean to give an example of the virtues of the ressurrection process. It would have been interesting to see Jean have a conflict with it precisely for her experience as phoenix.
    --

    I'd save the message. I'll copy, paste and send it soon.
    Thank you
    "To the X-men then, who don´t die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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  10. #505
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    that's 1000% on forge. He should have asked Ororo instead of assuming and never should have asked another woman to speak for the woman he said he loves.

    Jean is a true sister to Ororo.
    You know, I struggled with that scene for a long time. It seemed to me that Jean could have reacted better. And I still think she could have been more effective in theory, but I can totally understand why she didn't.

    As much as I love Jean, she has a very different personality when compared to mind. And you know - when well written - she tries not invade people's privacy and not to use the knowledge she accidentally gained with her telepathy/empathy.

    So when Forge comes and asks her if Ororo loves him...what could have Jean answer that wouldn’t be intrusive? Either saying “of course she does” or “well, not really” would be interfering in their relatiionship by definition, because she’s not just a friend. She’s a telepath and he knows that. He knows that Jean probably knows that answer with a level of certainty (= authority) that another of Ororo’s friend couldn't have. That’s the very reason he asked her, he even framed the question like that.

    But if Forge isn’t certain of that at that point, after he proposed to Ororo, that’s a problem. And Jean is not the one who should or could fix that problem.

    So again, what was Jean supposed to do if he she was to be well written?

    She didn’t know what to do, so she did the best she could. She replied: “That’s not for me to say”. Because it wasn’t. She did the right thing, but not in the effective way.

    I would have been effective, but not because I’m a better person. I’d have been effective because I’m not as empathetic as Jean. If a man was holding me by my shoulders and shaking me for an answer whether or not my best friend loved him *because* I’m a telepath… Oh, that man would get an answer!

    I’d be very pissed for myself *and* my friend. And my loyalty to my friend would make me very protective of her. Either that man would see me very uncharacteristically angry or I’d try to keep my composure (because of my friend) and I’d sound absolute-zero cold. But he would *not* have walked away from that conversation with that entitlement. He’d walk away feeling like a little ant unworthy of my friend and he’d either wait patiently for her answer or he’d have talked to Ororo himself.

    While that would have been more effective, Jean is not like me. She’s much better than me. She was empathetic because she saw Forge's desperation and she tried not to hurt him even when she had every reason to be angry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I don't think it's Percy's mandate that Jean doesn't know anything about the Phoenix. Blame Hickman and Jordan D. White.

    Also for what it's worth, Percy said Jean will have some kind of big moments in the Wolverine event. Hopefully those moments are positive and powerful.
    I hope so too, Kitty. But, personally, I doubt it when I take his track record under consideration and the fact that this is a Wolverine event. The way I see it, he doesn’t really see Jean as a character, he doesn’t really think about her as an entity of her own. His thinking about her seems to always be in relation to Logan. It's something I often see reflected on Logan's fans too: they like the character but not really for who she is, but what she brings to Logan.

    So, yeah, he may give her a line or a power feat here and there, I guess. But, for me, that's not worth what he gets wrong.
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 01-16-2022 at 02:42 AM.

  11. #506

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    You know, I struggled with that scene for a long time. It seemed to me that Jean could have reacted better. And I still think she could have been more effective in theory, but I can totally understand why she didn't.

    As much as I love Jean, she has a very different personality when compared to mind. And you know - when well written - she tries not invade people's privacy and not to use the knowledge she accidentally gained with her telepathy/empathy.

    So when Forge comes and asks her if Ororo loves him...what could have Jean answer that wouldn’t be intrusive? Either saying “of course she does” or “well, not really” would be interfering in their relatiionship by definition, because she’s not just a friend. She’s a telepath and he knows that. He knows that Jean probably knows that answer with a level of certainty (= authority) that another of Ororo’s friend couldn't have. That’s the very reason he asked her, he even framed the question like that.

    But if Forge isn’t certain of that at that point, after he proposed to Ororo, that’s a problem. And Jean is not the one who should or could fix that problem.

    So again, what was Jean supposed to do if he she is to be well written?

    She didn’t know what to do, so she did the best she could. She replied: “That’s not for me to say”. Because it wasn’t. She did the right thing, but not in the effective way.


    I would have been effective, but not because I’m a better person. I’d have been effective because I’m not as empathetic as Jean. If a man was holding me by my shoulders and shaking me for an answer whether or not my best friend loved him *because* I’m a telepath… Oh, that man would get an answer!

    I’d be very pissed for myself *and* my friend. And my loyalty to my friend would make me very protective of her. Either that man would see me very uncharacteristically angry or I’d try to keep my composure (because of my friend) and I’d sound absolute-zero cold. But he would *not* have walked away from that conversation with that entitlement. He’d walk away feeling like a little ant unworthy of my friend and he’d either wait patiently for her answer or he’d have talked to Ororo himself.

    While that would have been more effective, Jean is not like me. She’s much better than me. She was empathetic because she saw Forge's desperation and she tried not to hurt him even when she had every reason to be angry.



    I hope so too, Kitty. But, personally, I doubt it when I take his track record under consideration and the fact that this is a Wolverine event. The way I see it, he doesn’t really see Jean as a character, he doesn’t really think about her as an entity of her own. His thinking about her seems to always be in relation to Logan. It's something I often see reflected on Logan's fans too: they like the character but not really for who she is, but what she brings to Logan.

    So, yeah, he may give her a line or a power feat here and there, I guess. But, for me, that's not worth what he gets wrong.
    I could be weird but the one thing that bothers me, not to sound like Sonny Corinthos incarnate is betrayal. And i honestly in my heart feel if Jean would have answered that question it would have been a betrayal and i don't see many things as betrayal. At the end of the day if Forge is basically saying he doesn't believe Storm, she doesn't know better, her words aren't enough, it would have been hard for me to accept Jean stroking his ego and i consider that extremely smart and advance writing for the time in the way it was handled because if we are real in a lot of instances this could have gone the way of Jean thinking she was doing a solid for ororo by validating what she has already told forge but it would have gutted me on a personal level. so i think it was handled perfectly and Forge came out the loser in this scenario. I will always respect this moment as one only a true sister would have had for Ororo and Jean passed with flying colors.

    Also Jean and ororo have a deep understanding when it comes to Ororo being able to express her own feelings and going through my file clean up and this post has made me appreciate this scene even more.

    jeantelepathy.jpg
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.
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  12. #507
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    I think EVERY writer gets Jean's knowledge/connection about the Phoenix wrong. Part of that is because it's mandated that way, mostly out of fear that the Phoenix makes her overshadow the character she is shipped with.
    On Logan fans, as well-known as the character is, they don't really hang out in these online spaces as much as others, from what I've seen. Do they talk about Jean alot in the comic shops? The quietest fanbase in all of media online, relative to how big the character is.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 01-16-2022 at 03:01 AM.

  13. #508
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Agreed its what made the phoenix such a strong concept, it´s about life and the cycle of death and rebirth and it´s painful to see Aaron reduces this to a mere power up for superhero batles.
    I know… But to be fair, the one who started taking the original concept away from its roots was CC himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I think Percy knows this the problem is that he was using Jean to give an example of the virtues of the ressurrection process. It would have been interesting to see Jean have a conflict with it precisely for her experience as phoenix.
    I get it: he wanted to talk about how the resurrection could be seen as more than a selfish thing so he immediately jumped to: “I should use my most selfless character to say that”, without thinking if it made sense for Jean to think/feel this way.

    It’s this shallow level understanding of the characters that permeates this era. It’s like Hickman’s idea of: “If mutants are creating their nation, they should have their culture. And religion is part of the culture, so they need a religion. Let’s get Kurt to create a religion, ‘cause he’s religious”.

    I didn’t overall liked Way of X, but I’m grateful Spurrier pitched a different idea for the book.

    --

    Message sent, hon.

  14. #509
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I could be weird but the one thing that bothers me, not to sound like Sonny Corinthos incarnate is betrayal. And i honestly in my heart feel if Jean would have answered that question it would have been a betrayal and i don't see many things as betrayal. At the end of the day if Forge is basically saying he doesn't believe Storm, she doesn't know better, her words aren't enough, it would have been hard for me to accept Jean stroking his ego and i consider that extremely smart and advance writing for the time in the way it was handled because if we are real in a lot of instances this could have gone the way of Jean thinking she was doing a solid for ororo by validating what she has already told forge but it would have gutted me on a personal level. so i think it was handled perfectly and Forge came out the loser in this scenario. I will always respect this moment as one only a true sister would have had for Ororo and Jean passed with flying colors.

    Also Jean and ororo have a deep understanding when it comes to Ororo being able to express her own feelings and going through my file clean up and this post has made me appreciate this scene even more.

    jeantelepathy.jpg
    I totally agree with you. Jean could not have answered that question.

    When I said she was empathetic towards Forge, I mean she didn't give him the answer he deserved. The answer I'd have given him. Something that goes on the line of: "How dare you ask that of me? Do you think I respect Ororo so little I'd actually answer? She's my sister! You go ask her that yourself and if you don't believe her answer, mister, you should ask yourself if you're worthy of that magnificent woman. Now get out of my sight before I lose every ounce of respect I have for you".

  15. #510

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I totally agree with you. Jean could not have answered that question.

    When I said she was empathetic towards Forge, I mean she didn't give him the answer he deserved. The answer I'd have given him. Something that goes on the line of: "How dare you ask that of me? Do you think I respect Ororo so little I'd actually answer? She's my sister! You go ask her that yourself and if you don't believe her answer, mister, you should ask yourself if you're worthy of that magnificent woman. Now get out of my sight before I lose every ounce of respect I have for you".
    We are definitely on the same page with that. lol. I would have been like "are you for real? your joking right now right? you just said she said she loves you." like i would have been whole a$$ insulted on behalf og my friend, now my sister, naw hold all the way the f$*I$ up. lol. I do love the bond that claremont created with Storm/Jean it in my opinion is the definition of one choosing their family and he just kept building on it an paralleling them. I know she on X-men but man i wish so bad Jean would join storm on X-men Red. Like i know i know, it's a fanboy dream but damn if i don't want more of them in this era, i so miss it and at the same time though there is a lot there just doesn't feel like enough. Could you imagine Jean surprising everyone by taking a seat on the great ring of Arrako? lol. omg it would have to be Tarn seat, it just would have to be. You know i definitely wouldnt be mad at a x-show showing a young xavier taking in Jean and Storm and raising them. I think in canon they are the two he has in a way been there from since practically out of being toddlers if not consistently directly it definitely makes a strong showing for a single mutant telepath dad raising and hiding two uber powerful beings in the MCU and keeping them telepathically hidden. lol I kind of want to ramble on for like 10 more minutes because now i'm in my idea feels but i wont. lol

    Though i will add
    cotatalk01.jpg
    cotatalk01.jpg
    cotatalk02.jpg
    Last edited by jwatson; 01-16-2022 at 03:29 AM.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.
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