Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Warlioncomics]

Deva, you always make me cackle. Your use of "fowl" and "pox"...�� ����



This is simply not true. (You also said they were "never going to get her out of that dress" and they did.) I've come to realize that unless they make Jean Phoenix again and break up her relationship with Scott, you will continue to make sweeping claims about Marvel and the writers not liking nor having any interest in her, even if there is clear evidence to the contrary. I mean, she's been featured on over twenty covers, spanning the last few and into the next several months, but they're not interested in her. lol. More importantly, I'll take the word of two current X-writers over your sardonic pessimism and contrarianism.



More sweeping claims and judgments. You're on the other side of Kitty on the range of Jean fans-detractors. You gauge whether she is being written well or interestingly by how involved with Scott she is—we've had these conversations several times before—i.e., if she's not with Scott, then she's not being written well. Nothing drives me more insane than this take. It makes me want to jump on Kitty's boat (actually, I would never) and have them break up. I can tell you this much: Jean has a lot of fans, both within and outside of the comic book industry, and it's not because she's been ruined as a character.

You know, I have to remind myself that Jean attracts these kinds of fans and strange takes because she is such a fascinating and mercurial character. Everyone has a "favorite Jean" and thinks they know exactly how she should be written and with whom she should be paired and how she should identify herself. Frankly, I love her because she is so mercurial and contradictory. I relate to her because of that. The fact that she contradicts herself makes her more real and human to me.



This was cool of you to admit, Exodus. Thanks!

If you’re take after all this time talking to me is that i only want Jean to be with Scott or abandon Logan for me to say that she’s written well then you’ve not understood anything I’ve said in our conversations

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Urgh, that return of wolverine book was awful.

Because a out of his mind wolverine with fire claws is going to beat a team made up of Jean, Iceman, storm (3 omegas) and Kitty (an intangible ninja) smh.

And of course, Jean can't read his mind, because......
Anyway, look at this really cool fire claws

They love doing those stories where Wolverine beats literally all of the X-Men. Like...physically how?

[Mercury]

They already explained the costume. She was going back to pre-Phoenix days and that's what she wore in the moon fight and in Phoenix Resurrection. The idea of a new hero identity came up but they didn't feel like it. That was said in one of the AIPT articles.

This is true: Hickman implied, and White stated that Jean reverted to her old uniform because it symbolized for her the two times she rejected the Phoenix Force. This was also alluded to in X-Men #4, in which her nightmare illustrated the link between her guilt and her decision to revert to her former identity and appearance; mind you, a decision over which Duggan depicted her as being conflicted. I assume her nightmare and encounter with Nightmare acted as the catalysts for her realization that her residual guilt and subconscious fear were the driving forces behind her regression. Granted, her renunciation of the old uniform and codename has been teased out more than underscored. Still, I am reticent to assume this is because Marvel, Duggan, or the writers dislike or are uninterested in her. For all we know, the developments two current X-writers have told me are coming may include further exploration of her recent decision to shed her Marvel Girl garb and, seemingly, moniker.

As far as what people are saying in DMs, I will see it when/if it hits the page.

This is fair and I don't begrudge you your skepticism or pragmatism. All I can do is assure you that I am telling the truth about what I have been told.

If you see greatness and tender loving care in most of these post-Taylor Jean stories, hey cool, call them as you see them.

To be clear, I've never claimed to "see greatness and tender loving care" in Jean's development post-X-Men Red. I certainly have my issues with some of the directions in which she was taken after that series ended. In the last two to three years, many characters, A-list and otherwise, have been either ignored, underdeveloped, or inexplicably written out of character. However, as I wrote above, I don't assume this means Marvel and the writers dislike or have no interest in her or them. Moreover, it was revealed that Hickman had plans that he initially intended to unfold in just as many years, i.e., two to three years. I assume, as a result of the decision to extend his story, i.e., the Krakoan era, the arcs he may have had planned for various characters were slowed down and stretched out to cover this extension.

As far as the discourse, that's more a function of little to nothing of interest happening with the character, which is why the costume discussion is prevalent in absence of a narrative or story conflict related to Jean. The regression in costume/effectiveness is a result of the negative feelings toward a powerful Jean, WHICH are related to the shipping, as was intimated earlier, Claremont being ruinous for Jean and all

Kitty, I'm not going to get into this with you again; we've been there and done that before. I will say this: You offer very few opportunities for discourse. You simply proclaim blanket judgments and sweeping assumptions and generalizations as truth and, at times, make it a point of actively shutting down actual discourse by reducing discussions to "[they have] negative feelings toward a powerful Jean." It seems the bottom line is always the same with you: They took Phoenix away from her, she's died a couple of times, she's still with Cyclops, and she hasn't been developed to fit my preferences during this era, therefore, Marvel and the writers dislike and/or have no interest in her.

The bottom line is this: Neither you, I, nor anyone else knows what Marvel and the writers have planned for her. I guess we'll just have to wait and see whether what you assume or what I've been told will become more evident in the coming months.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Regarding interrupting discourse, I will apologize for disrupting the intensive study everyone was doing on Jean's current meaty plot all the times that such a thing happened. As far as the influences behind the creative decisions that happen to Jean, I think people today have hangups around characters just like people did back in the day when a girl who could fight Thor sooo blasphemous.

[WallStreeter]

Really and truly Jean doesn’t need the Phoenix force. She is already at least as powerful as the Phoenix at base power levels. Now she would need the Phoenix to wipe away the future and reset the universe, but that’s not obviously going to happen again because it’s a boring plot.

We’ve seen Jeen take down Galactus and we’ve seen Jean take down Nightmare. We will likely see Jean take down Eternals. It’s all good.

[WallStreeter]

Regarding interrupting discourse, I will apologize for disrupting the intensive study everyone was doing on Jean's current meaty plot all the times that such a thing happened. As far as the influences behind the creative decisions that happen to Jean, I think people today have hangups around characters just like people did back in the day when a girl who could fight Thor sooo blasphemous.

It’s okay if you totally hate everything from Marvel. That doesn’t mean you get to dictate how others feel. Each person here is individually responsible for their own feelings and happiness.

I think the issue seems to be because you’re unhappy with Marvel currently, you want to force others to feel as you do. It doesn’t work like that. Just as you feel the way you do, other people feel the way they do.

[Mercury]

@MarvelFan1992 reminded me of something in the 'Bobby joins X-Men' thread:

I forgot if it was the artist or an editor or whatever that mentioned it (it was someone from the x-office in an interview) but they said that everyone who appeared on the Destiny of X poster was someone who would be on a team and having a presence in Destiny of X...

That was Jordan D. White who said the following about Leinil Francis Yu's promotional poster for Destiny of X:

Jordan: If we put in every character that’s going to be in every book, he would still be drawing for the next month. It’s a lot of characters. We went through and made decisions for every book of who we wanted to feature from that book. Those decisions had to do with who’s got the most important plot lines, but also sometimes it had to do with who was cool-looking. If your favorite isn’t on there, that doesn’t mean they’re not going to be in the books.

Source: https://aiptcomics.com/2021/12/13/x-...ite-inferno-3/

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

It’s okay if you totally hate everything from Marvel. That doesn’t mean you get to dictate how others feel. Each person here is individually responsible for their own feelings and happiness.

I think the issue seems to be because you’re unhappy with Marvel currently, you want to force others to feel as you do. It doesn’t work like that. Just as you feel the way you do, other people feel the way they do.

Where have I implied others have to think what I think?

[Grinning Soul]

Guys... I say this with love. Stop trusting what those clowns say about the covers and the promotional materials.

Have you forgotten about Inferno already?

While they distract and manipulate us with endless tricks and gimmicks like that (including the in-story ones) we don't pay attention at the actual quality of the product we're consuming.

It's fine if you like what we're getting now. But you'd probably like it even more if those books were well written. Just go back and read some old comics if you need a refresher of what a good comic book looks like. You deserve better. We all do.

[Mercury]

Also, we still don't know where this is from:

[Mercury]

Guys... I say this with love. Stop trusting what those clowns say about the covers and the promotional materials.

Have you forgotten about Inferno already?

While they distract and manipulate us with endless tricks and gimmicks like that (including the in-story ones) we don't pay attention at the actual quality of the product we're consuming.

It's fine if you like what we're getting now. But you'd probably like it even more if those books were well written. Just go back and read some old comics if you need a refresher of what a good comic book looks like. You deserve better. We all do.

Out of curiosity, what was the last X-book you considered good and well-written?

[Grinning Soul]

Out of curiosity, what was the last X-book you considered good and well-written?

Hmm... That's a good question. I'd have to say HoX/PoX, even though I don't personally like Hickman's style or the concept of the story for the X-Men in particular. But it was well-written.

That being said, because it was the beginning of a new "era", we couldn't judge certain aspects that felt "off" yet. The story itself had an aura of mystery and part of what made it compelling was to wonder what the hell was going on.

So it's a mixed bag for a bunch of reasons, but it's well-written, given its premise.

EDITED: And before that, I guess I'd choose The Dark Angel Saga. Not a perfect story and a bit derivative in some aspects, but a really moving story.

EDITED 2: But it's possible I'm forgetting another arc I really like. I'll correct this if I think of another.

[Mercury]

Hmm... That's a good question. I'd have to say HoX/PoX, even though I don't personally like Hickman's style or the concept of the story for the X-Men in particular. But it was well-written.

That being said, because it was the beginning of a new "era", we couldn't judge certain aspects that felt "off" yet. The story itself had an aura of mystery and part of made it compelling was to wonder what the hell was going on.

So it's a mixed bag for a bunch of reasons, but it's well-written, given its premise.

Understandable. Now, which is the last X-book you found both good and well-written?

[Askani's Flame]

I read Knights of X and I know. Tini Howard, the writer of the book said Otherworld brought those powers out in Rachel because it saw that she has been a Phoenix host. Those are Phoenix powers. That development means X-Men writers can now use anything Phoenix enshrined they want to, now that Hickman is GONE.

See below as you're not correct.

Tini:"It does, and we’ll see some of that unfold as the story goes on. But the initial concept came from this idea — if Otherworld sort of sees all versions of you, and you’ve been a Phoenix host, well. That might leave more than a bit of magical residue on you."

Nowhere in her response does she admit that Rachel is exhibiting actual Phoenix powers. Rather, it's Otherworld's magical visual manifestation of what Rachel used to be. Operative word being "magical".

The Phoenix and her powers are otherwise fully engaged over in Avengers with Echo.

And besides, if it was actually Phoenix powers...Rachel of all people would know. She seemed very surprised at the flames in the moment.

Bolded for truth.

I don't buy into the idea that Rachel was some superior Phoenix host. For starters, when Rachel had the Phoenix (especially in Excalibur) it was more fleshed out as a cosmic entity than when Jean was merged with it originally - because back then Claremont defined it in different ways multiple times -whether it was the theory that Jean became a being of pure psionic energy and brought herself back or the cosmic elements implied in the last issue of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Let's remember that things Jean did as Phoenix was high level tk (like flying five or six people around with her tk - something X-factor Jean could do as well). There was an enormous amount of power creep between what Jean/Phoenix could do and what the Phoenix later became when it was with Rachel (re: all the retcons).

Also, in universe Rachel often mentioned how Jean was powerful with the Phoenix and that she sometimes struggled (see the Excalibur story where Rachel saves some guys on an oil rig she talks about seeing footage of Jean/Phoenix). Jean and presumably Hope found the destiny of the Phoenix by being White Phoenix unlike Rachel. Rachel also had issues with her powers and while didn't go completely dark she had some dark moments where she thought about using excessive force (like protecting Kitty, rebooting the universe while fighting the Beyonder, or wanting to kill Selene).

I find it interesting that there is this idea that the Phoenix takes something away from Jean but people don't say the same for Rachel. I think people just have a bias when it comes to Rachel and the Phoenix. If it is a negative for Jean then it should be for Rachel. You don't see fans saying how we don't know Rachel's true potential because of her connection to the Phoenix or how the Phoenix overshadows her. Fans just simply see Rachel as the Phoenix (and some of us see Jean in a similar way). I just wish people were consistent. I think the Phoenix adds to both characters and I prefer them both to have a connection to it. And if they do not - which they currently don't I am glad that their past connection isn't erased. I like that they reference it from time to time.

Rachel I don't think operated on the same power level as Jean/Phoenix even though she had more cosmic stunts than the original Phoenix years (which I explained above). While I do love Jean without the Phoenix I will always love her with it. Again it calls to the idea of having something greater inside you, or something that you have to wrestle with and control (kind of like sexuality - I think there is reason so many lgbt fans identify with Ms. Grey). The Phoenix costume is Jean's best look and there is something about seeing her in flames that gets me every time.

Since the Phoenix has been mangled so badly.. I am glad they are showing Jean as the powerful omega mutant that she is. I do want to see more of that but I also want to see more of her as a person - as a fully complex character that transcends the "wife/girlfriend" character so many of the fanboys see her as. I fear some of the creators see her that way as well. I am glad in Duggan's run Jean and Scott are often doing separate things. I think that is the best way to show characters that are couples. Rogue and Gambit are also better in separate books with limited interaction.

The issue when comparing Jean and Rachel as hosts, which tbh we shouldn't do really, is that the concepts of the Phoenix Force changed a number of times during and after the time period that Jean and Rachel were hosts. First it was the ultimate expression of Jean's abilities. Then it was those abilities shared by her daughter (and daughter of the PF). Then it was a cosmic entity because they needed to explain Jean's resurrection. List of changes continues as does the hosts. The closest Rachel got to operating at the White Crown level was when she was resurrected by the PF as it's "one true heir and Phoenix" (quoted because clearly that changed shortly after) and left Rachel to manage the powers while the cosmic entity went into hibernation. When that happened, she didn't have much time to do anything as host since the change in editors dictated that she was leaving Excalibur and the X-books. My point is that the concepts of the Phoenix at the times reflected on how those characters were written as a host. It's comparing apples and oranges. Both were accomplished hosts and avatars, both had different opportunities. And neither should be burdened with the Phoenix again for a long time as they are written better without it.

Isn't talking up Rachel as Phoenix just an attempted trolling thing anyway? No one cares about Rachel Phoenix.

It feels that way to you I guess, but I'd wager that there are in fact people that enjoyed Rachel as Phoenix vs the definitive zero you claim. Or this an attempted trolling?

I imagine even the Rachel fans are more about what separates her from Jean than they are about the copycatting. Hound, Mother Askani.

1000%. Rachel is very different from Jean and while they have shared similar abilities and code names, they use their powers differently and operate at different levels. I love them both.

[Grinning Soul]

Understandable. Now, which is the last X-book you found both good and well-written?

That I remember on the top of my head, The Dark Angel Saga.

EDITED: So, there were plenty of other stories I liked. But my memory is horrible and I don't remember exactly which came before which, so I'll just mention some of them: I liked most of Carey's run in Legacy and then Spurrier's run there. I liked most Remender's run in Uncanny X-force. I liked most of the stuff involving Hope including Messiah Complex and Second Coming. I don't think it was stellar, but Gillen's run in Uncanny X-Men was better than almost anything written in this Krakoa era, etc...