Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

The "best" thing about this thread is when people don't actually pay attention to what's been said in interviews. Jean was never meant to be on X-Force longterm, and Percy knew that he was losing her before he even had her.

That's interesting. Do you know where he said this?

[Starchilde]

That's interesting. Do you know where he said this?

I remember this time:

8C772660-F5E8-478F-85D8-C0C8E31E688E.jpg


https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...benjamin-percy

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I remember this time:

8C772660-F5E8-478F-85D8-C0C8E31E688E.jpg


https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...benjamin-percy

Thank you! Yeah, I guess that little bit was all he had for her. Bummer!

[BESTXMAN]

I dont know why it is but I get the sense a lot of Jean fans love her with Wolverine and loathe Cyclops and want to see him deceased.

[Grinning Soul]

I dont know why it is but I get the sense a lot of Jean fans love her with Wolverine and loathe Cyclops and want to see him deceased.

Some do. But it happens the other way around too: some of his fans truly hate her. It's due to pretty much 2 decades of people, including writers and editors saying negative things about their relationship and repeating them over and over without any actual basis on the books.

People are allowed to like or dislike anything, surely. But sometimes they need to justify their opinions and they'll use the craziest arguments. You can fact-check some people, but others... it's a waste of time.

[Spiderfan001]

I dont know why it is but I get the sense a lot of Jean fans love her with Wolverine and loathe Cyclops and want to see him deceased.

You also have those who love the latter and hate the former.

I think that's because a lot of fans watched the X movies and Jean and Logan was the pair to ship there

[Gnostic]

You also have those who love the latter and hate the former.

I think that's because a lot of fans watched the X movies and Jean and Logan was the pair to ship there

I don't understand that since that ship was poorly handled. Worse than the Peter and MJ romance in the Raimi trilogy. Wolverine only had 10 minutes of interaction with Jean in X1 and X2, then X3 acted like they knew each other for years.

[Grinning Soul]

I don't understand that since that ship was poorly handled. Worse than the Peter and MJ romance in the Raimi trilogy. Wolverine only had 10 minutes of interaction with Jean in X1 and X2, then X3 acted like they knew each other for years.

But the films handled Scott so badly that I can understand why it's hard for people who knew nothing about the couple to wonder why on Earth Jean was in a relationship with Scott in those movies.

[BESTXMAN]

I don't understand that since that ship was poorly handled. Worse than the Peter and MJ romance in the Raimi trilogy. Wolverine only had 10 minutes of interaction with Jean in X1 and X2, then X3 acted like they knew each other for years.

wow I wonder where Ben Percy got his ideas.

I am worried, I just read the infinite comic featuring wolverine and it is told from the perspective of Jean Grey. And that is SO NOT her voice. It's almost like she only exists for Logan. Normally I would laugh and attribute it to Ben Percy. But now his poison has spread into another writer. Who is probably himself with a pen name because it reads so awful it has to be him.

[Mercury]

@Mercury, this is some Jean fans in the future, probably:

"Member that time Jean got kicked out of leadership of the mutants for...what was it?"

"I don't remember really, but do you remember when she said the word, 'mayor' sarcastically?"

"Yeah, that was so epic!"

Well, some people have actually misconstrued the entire scene and made it seem as if she was being serious, which is insanely hilarious to me.

Mercury, I think you think I'm being hyperbolic when really you are a bit over-the-top about basically nothing of real interest happening with Jean. She has not been compelling. And yes, if you mean the Morrison run referring to 20 years ago, she did have more going on then and was a bit more of a character, as was teenage Jean from like 10 years ago or whenever it was. They took Jean out of the best positions for character drama/growth and that's almost objective fact.

I don't think you're being hyperbolic; I think you're just bitter, which is fine. The only time it bothers me is when you feel the need to chime in with your bitterness after I or someone else has shared something new or positive about Jean. It seems calculated and I'm sorry, but it isn't normal, especially not in a character's appreciation thread. However, I can't dictate what you post and I'm not the type to start reporting people to the mods. Also, I've come to accept and even like your point of view because it gives me something to chew on and with which to sharpen my teeth. Besides, I think deep down inside, you're a cool person and I can understand and empathize with some of your gripes, Phoenix Egg...

As for me being over the top--I absolutely am! And I love that about myself. Look, I'm here to have fun and wax rhapsodic about my favorite comic book character EVAH! But you see, I love ALL of Jean, not just one aspect of her. From her goofy Marvel Girl days back in the 60's to her more distinguished and fierce Jean Grey days, just preceding the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga, to, well, the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga to her X-Factor days to her X-Men and Uncanny X-Men days to her Morrison and Bendis days and everything else in between, I GENUINELY LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT HER. I even loved her during her recent Marvel Girl days under Hickman, even though I had my moments when I complained, too. I wouldn't. change. a. thing. Her history is a rich tapestry of contradictions and nuances and, ultimately, triumph over tragedy.

And it feels good to love her and feel good about it. It feels good to not get so bent out of shape because her development isn't unfolding the way I want. There's an element of surprise, which is one of the core joys of reading comic books, that I love and am game for. I also think that, rather than endlessly complain and insult my favorite character or insult and make assumptions about creators, I can share the joy this character brings me with others. Joy is infectious, you know? Well, it certainly can be to receptive people. You have no idea the conversations I've had with people that are in charge of handling her right now. I said this before, but I wouldn't have gotten the chance to do that if I were always complaining and dragging Jean and other people--writers, creatives, artists, etc.--down.

I can tell you this much: I wouldn't be hanging around this message board or running a Twitter account dedicated to her if (1) she didn't still excite me and I didn't have hope for the endless possibilities that lie before her, and (2) I wasn't making some kind of impact that I myself could measure. In the end, I'm fickle, get bored easily, and, overall, am an optimist, so I just don't relate to your brand of being a fan. I still want you around for kicks and giggles.

Honestly, my quirks aside, in all seriousness, I think most people will tell you neither Jean nor X-Men as a whole has been really compelling so far.

And those people are entitled to feel that way. The fact of the matter is, X-Men is still selling like hotcakes and mama is, with her husband, of course, still running the show.

The "best" thing about this thread is when people don't actually pay attention to what's been said in interviews. Jean was never meant to be on X-Force longterm, and Percy knew that he was losing her before he even had her.

She was also pretty great in Devil's Reign X-Men! Noto's art wasn't at his best but I thought the costume looked lovely and I am SO looking forward to what's coming for her this coming year.

Chiiile....lol. You're bad, Harp.

[Mercury]

I dont know why it is but I get the sense a lot of Jean fans love her with Wolverine and loathe Cyclops and want to see him deceased.

I certainly don't hate Scott. There have been moments when I felt Scott dragged her down; when I've related to some of the things Kitty has said; and when I've related to some of the things Grinning Soul has said. I'm mercurial that way. Heh. I do think he's gotten away with and has been given more liberties than Jean, but that's good ol' fashion sexism.

In the end, if I'm being brutally honest, I like the idea of Jean and Scott together, as long as it's handled with nuance and compellingly. As far as I'm concerned, Duggan is on the right track. He treats them as what they are: equals and leaders. He's given them tender moments but nothing I would consider mawkish, which I couldn't deal with just yet. If they're going to stay a couple, then I want to start seeing some passion somewhere in the middle or at the end of year two.

For now, I'm happy.

wow I wonder where Ben Percy got his ideas.

I am worried, I just read the infinite comic featuring wolverine and it is told from the perspective of Jean Grey. And that is SO NOT her voice. It's almost like she only exists for Logan. Normally I would laugh and attribute it to Ben Percy. But now his poison has spread into another writer. Who is probably himself with a pen name because it reads so awful it has to be him.

It sounded like Jean to me. Besides, it was a short comic and mostly focused on recounting Logan's childhood before his mutation manifested. As far as I'm concerned, it reads like Whitman!

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Well, some people have actually misconstrued the entire scene and made it seem as if she was being serious, which is insanely hilarious to me.



I don't think you're being hyperbolic; I think you're just bitter, which is fine. The only time it bothers me is when you feel the need to chime in with your bitterness after I or someone else has shared something new or positive about Jean. It seems calculated and I'm sorry, but it isn't normal, especially not in a character's appreciation thread. However, I can't dictate what you post and I'm not the type to start reporting people to the mods. Also, I've come to accept and even like your point of view because it gives me something to chew on and with which to sharpen my teeth. Besides, I think deep down inside, you're a cool person and I can understand and empathize with some of your gripes, Phoenix Egg...

As for me being over the top--I absolutely am! And I love that about myself. Look, I'm here to have fun and wax rhapsodic about my favorite comic book character EVAH! But you see, I love ALL of Jean, not just one aspect of her. From her goofy Marvel Girl days back in the 60's to her more distinguished and fierce Jean Grey days, just preceding the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga, to, well, the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga to her X-Factor days to her X-Men and Uncanny X-Men days to her Morrison and Bendis days and everything else in between, I GENUINELY LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT HER. I even loved her during her recent Marvel Girl days under Hickman, even though I had my moments when I complained, too. I wouldn't. change. a. thing. Her history is a rich tapestry of contradictions and nuances and, ultimately, triumph over tragedy.

And it feels good to love her and feel good about it. It feels good to not get so bent out of shape because her development isn't unfolding the way I want. There's an element of surprise, which is one of the core joys of reading comic books, that I love and am game for. I also think that, rather than endlessly complain and insult my favorite character or insult and make assumptions about creators, I can share the joy this character brings me with others. Joy is infectious, you know? Well, it certainly can be to receptive people. You have no idea the conversations I've had with people that are in charge of handling her right now. I said this before, but I wouldn't have gotten the chance to do that if I were always complaining and dragging Jean and other people--writers, creatives, artists, etc.--down.

I can tell you this much: I wouldn't be hanging around this message board or running a Twitter account dedicated to her if (1) she didn't still excite me and I didn't have hope for the endless possibilities that lie before her, and (2) I wasn't making some kind of impact that I myself could measure. In the end, I'm fickle, get bored easily, and, overall, am an optimist, so I just don't relate to your brand of being a fan. I still want you around for kicks and giggles.



And those people are entitled to feel that way. The fact of the matter is, X-Men is still selling like hotcakes and mama is, with her husband, of course, still running the show.



Chiiile....lol. You're bad, Harp.

Is there an example of this "calculated" post? As far as reporting to mods, be my guest. I haven't broken any rule that I am aware of by not saying what you would like me to say. As far as insulting the character, I haven't. I have clowned on the writing and the old-fashioned restraints on the character though, as deserved
About your connections...maybe you can influence them to give her a little more storytelling, maybe let her have a little crumb of conflict without the story ending on her being too delicate to handle it. That would be a major impact.

As for whether you relate to my "brand of being a fan", know that you do not have to. There is arguably some merit to the consideration of the why and what-does-this-mean and what-is-the-writer-trying-to-say-about-the-characters when reading a story. So no, in my eyes, not literally everything that is put on the page is endearing and it is all open to dissection. For some, it's not just "oh Jean wears an old costume now", it's more of a "oh Jean is wearing an old costume now, what are the thoughts/opinions/upbringing/intents behind that?" And it's great that there is a difference in the way people read the stories and there should be someone there to say "everything is awesome".

As for Jean running the show...well...Dwight (The Office reference) thought he was running the show as well, but Captain Krakoa is the team leader.

[Rev9]

But the films handled Scott so badly that I can understand why it's hard for people who knew nothing about the couple to wonder why on Earth Jean was in a relationship with Scott in those movies.

I'm of the view since movies capture much smaller time intervals than comics , they are never going to capture the essence of such a long relationship if the script is set out to define them as as already in a relationship in film.That is where the problem lies.The film should start with them just meeting for the first time and then through subsequent films tell a story of how they grow as team mates, friends and love interests(if that is what the ultimate movie arc will lead to). That's one solution but having said that there's always a danger because X-Men are a team and a movie about a team requires broader focus.One could possibly say that we can have several X-Men movies to do this , in my opinion this requires more than a trilogy , probably five films minimum, because to do it in fewer movies means we get to a scenario under Singer where the movies were too Wolverine centered at the expense of other team mates which is a major issue for me. I feel like to put great premium on Scott and Jean in overall film story risks taking away valuable time from other characters. In the end I don't think films have the time to indulge viewers in the story of the duo, sure an attempt can be made over a series of films but I think it needs balancing with other characters too and ensuring that this overarching narration and dynamic is obvious over the course of several movies without being too heavyily Scott-Jean centric in every movie. It can be done ,but a lot of patience is needed. I don't know if screenwriters or even movie fans have that in abundance these days.

[Rev9]

Percy really out there ignoring that Wolverine married Mariko.

Come on now, Logan is old enough to have done it before Jean was even born. I'm not making light of his vows, but with his immortality it can be easily explained. I assume she is part of his history not his present.If Marko is dead and he wants her back , his buddy Beast can make things happen

[Grinning Soul]

I'm of the view since movies capture much smaller time intervals than comics , they are never going to capture the essence of such a long relationship if the script is set out to define them as as already in a relationship in film.That is where the problem lies.The film should start with them just meeting for the first time and then through subsequent films tell a story of how they grow as team mates, friends and love interests(if that is what the ultimate movie arc will lead to). That's one solution but having said that there's always a danger because X-Men are a team and a movie about a team requires broader focus.One could possibly say that we can have several X-Men movies to do this , in my opinion this requires more than a trilogy , probably five films minimum, because to do it in fewer movies means we get to a scenario under Singer where the movies were too Wolverine centered at the expense of other team mates which is a major issue for me. I feel like to put great premium on Scott and Jean in overall film story risks taking away valuable time from other characters. In the end I don't think films have the time to indulge viewers in the story of the duo, sure an attempt can be made over a series of films but I think it needs balancing with other characters too and ensuring that this overarching narration and dynamic is obvious over the course of several movies without being too heavyily Scott-Jean centric in every movie. It can be done ,but a lot of patience is needed. I don't know if screenwriters or even movie fans have that in abundance these days.

But that's not what I meant at all.

I meant Scott in the movies was portrayed as a man without many obvious admirable traits. I won't even say he's a shadow of the character he is in the comics, because that would imply one is a weaker version of the other. And, for me, it's like they're not even the same character.