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  1. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    But that's not what I meant at all.

    I meant Scott in the movies was portrayed as a man without many obvious admirable traits. I won't even say he's a shadow of the character he is in the comics, because that would imply one is a weaker version of the other. And, for me, it's like they're not even the same character.
    I agree and perhaps that is because he was presented as foil for Logan, with nothing else going for him.I think this is a big problem for me even in the rebooted universe he was shown to be a prism to view Jean through.I personally would prefer Scott being shown as an independent self sufficient character not someone just there to be a prop or to run around Jean.Like some lines in Dark Phoenix were bizzare..'You said you'll always come back to me..' that was weird af considering they barely knew each other. Scott was utterly mishandled in the film's no doubt about that.

  2. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I agree and perhaps that is because he was presented as foil for Logan, with nothing else going for him.I think this is a big problem for me even in the rebooted universe he was shown to be a prism to view Jean through.I personally would prefer Scott being shown as an independent self sufficient character not someone just there to be a prop or to run around Jean.Like some lines in Dark Phoenix were bizzare..'You said you'll always come back to me..' that was weird af considering they barely knew each other. Scott was utterly mishandled in the film's no doubt about that.
    They knew each other for eight years.

  3. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Agent of Chaos View Post
    They knew each other for eight years.
    It's misplaced because they didn't age 8 years in the movie and I don't mean literally, they spent 8 years in the Xavier school from what 84 to 92, still being treated like students? Is all Scott referring to teen drama? Did she ever leave the school before, what is the context for those words?(mind you there is absolutely no connection between the films with regard to how Jean had Phoenix power in XMA 8 years before her 'first' encounter in space). Scott having been with Jean 8 years is clueless in the film,so if we say Xavier has made Jean forget her familial history up till that point why do Scott's words ring so hollow? If Scott developed a history with Jean that was so profound, she wouldn't just put him to sleep if they knew each other that well and she felt she needed to find answers and they were that close. I know he threw the words out there but everything in film just shows them to be hollow. If Jeans parents were a source of guilt to let her spiral, Scott (however vague) stood as a better tether to her humanity in film to give those words gravitas, instead they have no bearing on the plot whatsoever.Anyway if you feel those words were earned in retrospect over 8 years cool, what I'm saying is they weren't earned by the film's conclusion.
    Last edited by Rev9; 01-21-2022 at 03:56 AM.

  4. #679
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I agree and perhaps that is because he was presented as foil for Logan, with nothing else going for him.I think this is a big problem for me even in the rebooted universe he was shown to be a prism to view Jean through.I personally would prefer Scott being shown as an independent self sufficient character not someone just there to be a prop or to run around Jean.Like some lines in Dark Phoenix were bizzare..'You said you'll always come back to me..' that was weird af considering they barely knew each other. Scott was utterly mishandled in the film's no doubt about that.
    You know what's worse? Jean herself isn't even a character in the films either. She's either Wolverine's love and/or the reason to write a Phoenix story.

    But, as you can see, I really don't like the films. It's hard for me to even attempt to be impartial about them, which is why I usually don't even comment when that's the subject.

  5. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    You know what's worse? Jean herself isn't even a character in the films either. She's either Wolverine's love and/or the reason to write a Phoenix story.

    But, as you can see, I really don't like the films. It's hard for me to even attempt to be impartial about them, which is why I usually don't even comment when that's the subject.
    I half-disagree with that. She had actual backstory, character flaws, and an arc in Dark Phoenix.

  6. #681
    Mighty Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    You know what's worse? Jean herself isn't even a character in the films either. She's either Wolverine's love and/or the reason to write a Phoenix story.

    But, as you can see, I really don't like the films. It's hard for me to even attempt to be impartial about them, which is why I usually don't even comment when that's the subject.

    I totally agree with you. I have a certain childlike nostalgia for the first 2 Singer films, even though he's a creep and a predator, but everything from X3 - New Mutants is virtually unwatchable for me. DoFP was okay.

  7. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    You know what's worse? Jean herself isn't even a character in the films either. She's either Wolverine's love and/or the reason to write a Phoenix story.

    But, as you can see, I really don't like the films. It's hard for me to even attempt to be impartial about them, which is why I usually don't even comment when that's the subject.
    For me personally the concept of the Phoenix though cannon in comics is too alien to fit even a trilogy of films.An entity like that needs to be developed in its own right just as much as characters in film with simple human trials and travails..So personally if I were a screenwriter and my focus was Jean's development as an individual character,I wouldn't bring the Phoenix concept up at all! Let her develop as a character purely in human terms no need to go from 0 to 100 with cosmic entities.Sure if phase 4 for example has Phoenix as some big force in the ultimate conclusion to all the films ,maybe you can build it up from various viewpoints to give it a larger than life feel but through Jean or the X-Men alone,I personally wouldn't bother.
    Last edited by Rev9; 01-21-2022 at 04:21 AM.

  8. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    It's misplaced because they didn't age 8 years in the movie and I don't mean literally, they spent 8 years in the Xavier school from what 84 to 92, still being treated like students? Is all Scott referring to teen drama? Did she ever leave the school before, what is the context for those words?(mind you there is absolutely no connection between the films with regard to how Jean had Phoenix power in XMA 8 years before her 'first' encounter in space). Scott having been with Jean 8 years is clueless in the film,so if we say Xavier has made Jean forget her familial history up till that point why do Scott's words ring so hollow? If Scott developed a history with Jean that was so profound, she wouldn't just put him to sleep if they knew each other that well and she felt she needed to find answers and they were that close. I know he threw the words out there but everything in film just shows them to be hollow. If Jeans parents were a source of guilt to let her spiral, Scott (however vague) stood as a better tether to her humanity in film to give those words gravitas, instead they have no bearing on the plot whatsoever.Anyway if you feel those words were earned in retrospect over 8 years cool, what I'm saying is they weren't earned by the film's conclusion.
    Jean first manifested a Phoenix aura when she was child, years before the space shuttle incident.


  9. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Agent of Chaos View Post
    Jean first manifested a Phoenix aura when she was child, years before the space shuttle incident.

    Yeah cool,I was following the movie plot,now that you say that her history with Phoenix goes way back ,it would be nice if there was some connection made between the films to at least have the entity speak to Jean in Dark Phoenix to give it a sentient feel that it has looked after her since the 3rd film(that it has visited earth before..)There was none of that in the film unfortunately.

  10. #685
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Yeah cool,I was following the movie plot,now that you say that her history with Phoenix goes way back ,it would be nice if there was some connection made between the films to at least have the entity speak to Jean in Dark Phoenix to give it a sentient feel that it has looked after her since the 3rd film(that it has visited earth before..)There was none of that in the film unfortunately.
    Or, One should not have to read the comics to understand the movie.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  11. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Or, One should not have to read the comics to understand the movie.
    True ,that is why I wish Dark Phoenix was synchronised or connected with X-Men Apocalypse, I mean the simplest way is to have Phoenix be a prophecy in ancient Egypt to defeat Apocalypse , but then have it revealed that it liked Jean as a particular vessel because it was the first time to inhabit a telepath/telekinetic..making it understand mortals better and it returned but then Jean was in a much darker place in her second film.There are ways to make plot make sense but some movies just ..yeah
    Last edited by Rev9; 01-21-2022 at 05:47 AM.

  12. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Yeah cool,I was following the movie plot,now that you say that her history with Phoenix goes way back ,it would be nice if there was some connection made between the films to at least have the entity speak to Jean in Dark Phoenix to give it a sentient feel that it has looked after her since the 3rd film(that it has visited earth before..)There was none of that in the film unfortunately.
    They wanted the Phoenix to be Jean's super-powered dark side instead of a separate entity. The cosmic energy she absorbed just unleashed it.

  13. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Or, One should not have to read the comics to understand the movie.
    The movies do explain it though.

  14. #689
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Agent of Chaos View Post
    The movies do explain it though.
    If that's true then why did you post comic panels and not a clip from the film?
    Dark does not mean deep.

  15. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    If that's true then why did you post comic panels and not a clip from the film?
    That's a bit hard to do. But my point is: if Jean didn't need the force to manifest the aura in the comics, why would she in the movie? Especially, when that rule has never been established in the fines.

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