Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Byrne-posts are so fun to react to and read reactions to.

[Lukmendes]

https://i.imgur.com/FwViMNI.jpeg

Man, how many times did that happen? Damn lol.

Like we recently said....That's Jean, lol

Is that after the Onslaught nonsense?

Oh my god—EXACTLY! Don't even get me started on that. What's interesting, though, is that Byrne claimed to be a big Jean fan. However, her transformation into Phoenix proved to be too disconcerting for him. And while I totally understand his point that having her on the team at full power "made the rest of the X-Men fifth wheels," I don't fully buy it either. I mean, as Claremont pointed out, Thor was integrated into the Avengers, so why couldn't Phoenix be?

Yeah, I could see his point if he had a problem with Jean getting Dark Phoenix power levels and being in the X-Men, that would be way too much, but as Phoenix, being around Thor's level is manageable.

In the Avengers itself we do have situations where Thor gets silly defeats anyways, characters aren't always written like they're super power houses.

Another point that could be made against Jean is that since Thor has his own solo adventures, he doesn't have to show up in the Avengers all the time, while someone like Jean being absent for too long would be noticeable, but I'm pretty sure that whenever he was a member he was there at least semi-consistently (He did leave for a long time after Avengers#16 though) and helping against big threats like Ultron, so even that point wouldn't really work.

Plus if he's not on the team then there's Iron Man, and after a while Wonder Man joined and he's close to Thor's level I think...

Thank you for this little recap of potential candidates for Marvel's first female cosmic superhero. I really need to do a deep dive into this to settle the matter once and for all.

Yeah I really doubt there were many women with that potential, I think back then the strongest females were villains, Enchantress has pretty strong magic and she could casually make herself into Valkyrie, or turn other women into Valkyrie (Though that case was temporary if her powers were weakened), which's noticeable, and then there's Umar, who I think was weaker than Strange at the time, but was still likely a power house by being Dormammu's sister.

Sue might've been the best one to have potential to be considered cosmic, since nowadays her force fields are the reason she's considered the strongest F4 member, but I don't think that was the case back then, and even nowadays I doubt she's considered cosmic.

Since I mentioned Defenders, there's Valkyrie but, she seems to lack even the raw power of a cosmic character, and while she at least once is called "female Thor", her strength doesn't seem that high, as far as I've seen, her strongest moment was when she surprised Executioner with her strength, but generally she's shown to be the weakest power house in the non-team by a large margin (And the team is made of power houses early on, with Strange, Hulk, Namor and Silver Surfer in the few issues he bothers to show up), and besides the Executioner situation, the only other part her strength looked impressive was when she was shown to be stronger than Spider-Man in Marvel Team-Up#34 (For whatever reason that story decided to say Looter/Meteor Man is physically stronger than Spidey, when that definitely wasn't the case before, and I got the impression Valkyrie looked stronger than Looter/Meteor Man), but that's it, she's just a strong chick with a sharp sword and lacks magic **** that Thor has, so she's not even close to being cosmic.

There's also Clea who's Strange's apprentice, but what I've seen has her being quite clearly not experienced with magic in there old stories.

So yeah, what I've seen, I really don't think there's anyone else who could become a female cosmic heroine at the time, so Jean was likely the first one which had an attempt that Marvel wasn't comfortable with, and honestly, if there was someone else she probably wasn't major lol.

AHA! lol. She's certainly an enchanting character. The more you dive into her history, the more she grips you. She's been so many things in so many stories and to so many people—she "contain[s] multitudes," after all—but she's also always been essentially the same: fiercely assertive yet deeply empathic. She's a character full of surprises. One moment she can die on you, and the next moment she can be the single most powerful being in all of creation. She can be the most vulnerable—some consider this a weakness—or the most impenetrable. I see her as this great big mysterious and mercurial myth that's constantly shifting and changing and evolving. I mean, that's really what all comic book characters are, but I think my description especially applies to her.

As long as these situations make sense I'm fine with the contrasts listed.

A contrast I found silly was in Morrison's New X-Men, Jean just resurrected on the sun and flew back to Earth, then up, gets killed because did a "Planetary stroke" on her, which has no cool effects and just makes it look like he touched her and she died, and Phoenix did nothing for some reason lol.

Maybe Phoenix ran out of continues or somethin' .

I actually recently thought about this, i.e., that they downplayed her power in the animated series to highlight her transformation into Phoenix. And yes, they certainly went overboard with it.

It could be a case of stories making her look weaker for the sake of making Phoenix more impressive, but then the writers and animators missed the point and just made her incompetent.

And that's a best case scenario too, if she was randomly tripping since the first episode she was doomed from the start lol.

Worst case scenario would have her still being incompetent even as Phoenix now that I think of it lol.

Well, it's hard for the original run to grab anyone's attention, especially considering what came after and today's standards overall. It's tame, though it has its charm, and is fascinating if only to peruse to hunt for seeds and clues pertaining to the O5, their history and their core characteristics.

Yeah they were clearly still trying to come up with stuff as they went along, Beast had the most noticeable change, he was basically closer to Ben Grimm's personality until the third issue suddenly made him into a hyper intelligent nerd who vomits dictionaries whenever he opens his mouth.

Iceman was also more noticeably a Johnny Storm clone at first but then his ******* attitude was toned down after a while.

It's more understandable for some details to be different at first compared to later, I hear that Hulk could actually fly at first, then that was retconned to "He can leap really far".

Well, it's clear that there was nothing wrong with the core concept of the X-Men; only how the creators chose to execute and explore, or not explore, it.

Yeah the concept itself was fine, and a bunch of people having similar origins is a decent enough way of having more powered up people without having to come up with a new origin every time (Even if I don't really care about the original idea of "Parents infected with radiation make their children have super powers!"), problem is that, the idea was fine, but the execution didn't work that well, but again, with the amount of work Lee and Kirby had and how much **** they had to come up with on a regular basis, someone would likely get the short end of the stick when it comes to execution, and unfortunately it was X-Men.

Yes, she and Logan have kissed around 3-5 times in the last 3 years, mostly under platonic circumstances, save for that one time in the hot tub; therefore, they're dating. Actually, they've been having sex four times a month in the caverns of the Blue Area of the Moon, are on the cusp of marriage, and are pregnant. Katherine, or "Shine," will be making her Krakoan debut shortly.

You just made me imagine a redhead girlverine with Jean's powers, who'd probably get the Phoenix at some point just because of that sweet sweet Wolverine publicity. I want you to suffer with this mental image as I did .

[Mercury]

Yeah, I could see his point if he had a problem with Jean getting Dark Phoenix power levels and being in the X-Men, that would be way too much, but as Phoenix, being around Thor's level is manageable.

In the Avengers itself we do have situations where Thor gets silly defeats anyways, characters aren't always written like they're super power houses.

Another point that could be made against Jean is that since Thor has his own solo adventures, he doesn't have to show up in the Avengers all the time, while someone like Jean being absent for too long would be noticeable, but I'm pretty sure that whenever he was a member he was there at least semi-consistently (He did leave for a long time after Avengers#16 though) and helping against big threats like Ultron, so even that point wouldn't really work.

Plus if he's not on the team then there's Iron Man, and after a while Wonder Man joined and he's close to Thor's level I think...

The irony to all of this and Byrne's objections is that according to Claremont:

"[S]ales jumped by about five points every time Phoenix was on the cover. Every time. It was uncanny...[Uncanny X-Men] #125 shot through the roof, and you can see it all through the Phoenix story, as the Phoenix appears on the cover, the book sells better and better." (The X-Men Companion, 1982)

Yeah I really doubt there were many women with that potential, I think back then the strongest females were villains, Enchantress has pretty strong magic and she could casually make herself into Valkyrie, or turn other women into Valkyrie (Though that case was temporary if her powers were weakened), which's noticeable, and then there's Umar, who I think was weaker than Strange at the time, but was still likely a power house by being Dormammu's sister.

Sue might've been the best one to have potential to be considered cosmic, since nowadays her force fields are the reason she's considered the strongest F4 member, but I don't think that was the case back then, and even nowadays I doubt she's considered cosmic.

Since I mentioned Defenders, there's Valkyrie but, she seems to lack even the raw power of a cosmic character, and while she at least once is called "female Thor", her strength doesn't seem that high, as far as I've seen, her strongest moment was when she surprised Executioner with her strength, but generally she's shown to be the weakest power house in the non-team by a large margin (And the team is made of power houses early on, with Strange, Hulk, Namor and Silver Surfer in the few issues he bothers to show up), and besides the Executioner situation, the only other part her strength looked impressive was when she was shown to be stronger than Spider-Man in Marvel Team-Up#34 (For whatever reason that story decided to say Looter/Meteor Man is physically stronger than Spidey, when that definitely wasn't the case before, and I got the impression Valkyrie looked stronger than Looter/Meteor Man), but that's it, she's just a strong chick with a sharp sword and lacks magic **** that Thor has, so she's not even close to being cosmic.

There's also Clea who's Strange's apprentice, but what I've seen has her being quite clearly not experienced with magic in there old stories.

So yeah, what I've seen, I really don't think there's anyone else who could become a female cosmic heroine at the time, so Jean was likely the first one which had an attempt that Marvel wasn't comfortable with, and honestly, if there was someone else she probably wasn't major lol.

Again, thanks for the additional info. Also, ultimately, Marvel's objections, as rooted in sexism as they may have been, resulted in Jean turning out to be one of their most complex and fascinating characters. All-in-all, knowing what would come of their decision to kill her, I'm not sure I would have done anything differently. There are so many stories that have come since that I love too dearly and feel add so much to her mythos.

Incidentally—and I'll try posting a screenshot of these quotes from The X-Men Companion—after the last-minute changes in UXM #137 had been agreed upon, Claremont's plot didn't result in Jean dying; instead, "her corporeal self would have faded away" after she turned one of the Watcher's weapons on herself. However, the story was changed in discussions between Byrne and Shooter, and Byrne drew the pages before Claremont found out. They changed the weapon to a Kree weapon and the rest is history. However, the possibility of her return was supposed to be left ambiguous.

As long as these situations make sense I'm fine with the contrasts listed.

A contrast I found silly was in Morrison's New X-Men, Jean just resurrected on the sun and flew back to Earth, then up, gets killed because did a "Planetary stroke" on her, which has no cool effects and just makes it look like he touched her and she died, and Phoenix did nothing for some reason lol.

Maybe Phoenix ran out of continues or somethin'.

I agree; it was silly. It also underscores one major flaw not just in Morrison's run but in the Dark Phoenix Saga itself: the Phoenix is meant to die and be reborn ad infinitum, i.e., it never truly dies. And yet, as readers, we are supposed to find it plausible that a being that plunged into and fed on a sun, causing it to go supernova, somehow was self-annihilated by, as Claremont notes in The X-Men Companion, "a device constructed by the Kree at the very beginnings of their mechanistic civilization, when they were essentially being given everything by the Skrulls." He admits, "To me, anyway, that stretched the bounds of credibility."

It could be a case of stories making her look weaker for the sake of making Phoenix more impressive, but then the writers and animators missed the point and just made her incompetent.

And that's a best case scenario too, if she was randomly tripping since the first episode she was doomed from the start lol.

Worst case scenario would have her still being incompetent even as Phoenix now that I think of it lol.

She also had her moments of inexplicable incompetence and weakness as Phoenix, too, in that series. I'm so thankful that we have someone at the helm who loves and gets her as a character. It'll be the first property in which she will be introduced under the MCU banner. It's important that they get her right.

Yeah they were clearly still trying to come up with stuff as they went along, Beast had the most noticeable change, he was basically closer to Ben Grimm's personality until the third issue suddenly made him into a hyper intelligent nerd who vomits dictionaries whenever he opens his mouth.

Iceman was also more noticeably a Johnny Storm clone at first but then his ******* attitude was toned down after a while.

It's more understandable for some details to be different at first compared to later, I hear that Hulk could actually fly at first, then that was retconned to "He can leap really far".

It's funny that you bring this up, because in I believe Roy Thomas' or Cockrum's interview in The X-Men Companion—I have to go back and check—they noted that Jean started off as strong and assertive from the get, but was purposefully toned down to "Sue Storm levels." Essentially, as a character, she's been dealing with male writers wanting to regress her from the very beginning. In a way, it makes me love her and want to champion her more.

Yeah the concept itself was fine, and a bunch of people having similar origins is a decent enough way of having more powered up people without having to come up with a new origin every time (Even if I don't really care about the original idea of "Parents infected with radiation make their children have super powers!"), problem is that, the idea was fine, but the execution didn't work that well, but again, with the amount of work Lee and Kirby had and how much **** they had to come up with on a regular basis, someone would likely get the short end of the stick when it comes to execution, and unfortunately it was X-Men.

This is true, especially since, by the time the X-Men rolled around, Lee and Kirby already had bonafide successes to focus on. Ultimately, it all worked out in mutants' interests anyway!

You just made me imagine a redhead girlverine with Jean's powers, who'd probably get the Phoenix at some point just because of that sweet sweet Wolverine publicity. I want you to suffer with this mental image as I did.

Oh god no. And yes, I'm officially suffering too! lol. Actually, Shine inherited Jean's psionic powers, or something close to them, and her looks, too!

[Lukmendes]

The irony to all of this and Byrne's objections is that according to Claremont:

Something something she wasn't an X-Man .

Again, thanks for the additional info. Also, ultimately, Marvel's objections, as rooted in sexism as they may have been, resulted in Jean turning out to be one of their most complex and fascinating characters. All-in-all, knowing what would come of their decision to kill her, I'm not sure I would have done anything differently. There are so many stories that have come since that I love too dearly and feel add so much to her mythos.

At the time, I'd say at least killing her off was the right call, considering heroes where more black and white and a hero killing a planet, yeah... Plus it added this sense of tragedy to the story too.

The various retcons surrounding Jean and Phoenix, yeah, that's another story lol.

If Jean became a better character because of dumb decisions they've made, then she kinda has that in common with Mary Jane, 'cause she has so much nonsense that improved her character by accident, it's hilarious.

I agree; it was silly. It also underscores one major flaw not just in Morrison's run but in the Dark Phoenix Saga itself: the Phoenix is meant to die and be reborn ad infinitum, i.e., it never truly dies. And yet, as readers, we are supposed to find it plausible that a being that plunged into and fed on a sun, causing it to go supernova, somehow was self-annihilated by, as Claremont notes in The X-Men Companion, "a device constructed by the Kree at the very beginnings of their mechanistic civilization, when they were essentially being given everything by the Skrulls." He admits, "To me, anyway, that stretched the bounds of credibility."

Jean admitedly was trying to repress the Phoenix and kept being attacked to weaken herself, but yeah, it's a stretch regardless...

Later retcons even make it clear Phoenix didn't die there, she apparently sensed Rachel and travelled to Days of Future Past timeline to see what's up, or somethin' like that lol.

She also had her moments of inexplicable incompetence and weakness as Phoenix, too, in that series.

I guess the jokes about Jean's incompetence overpowering even Phoenix are accurate then lol.

I'm so thankful that we have someone at the helm who loves and gets her as a character. It'll be the first property in which she will be presented under the MCU. It's important that they get her right.

Not to mention the first cartoon since WATXM, and that came out 13 years ago, if they screw up Jean again it'd be bad for her lol.

It's funny that you bring this up, because in I believe Roy Thomas' or Cockrum's interview in The X-Men Companion—I have to go back and check—they noted that Jean started off as strong and assertive from the get, but was purposefully toned down to "Sue Storm levels." Essentially, as a character, she's been dealing with male writers wanting to regress her from the very beginning. In a way, it makes me love her and want to champion her more.

Yeah it's pretty noticeable, it didn't take long for most of her personality just have her thinking about Cyke.

Cyke also had the annoyance of thinking about how he can't be with Jean too much, but after a while he got some other stuff going on for his character (It wasn't much, but it was something), Jean meanwhile was either being more of a generic hero (Which everyone else was doing too) or just thinking about Cyke, was pretty annoying.

Oh god know. Yes, I'm officially suffering too! lol. Actually, Shine inherited Jean's psionic powers, or something close to them, and her looks, too!

Oh man, I thought you came up with Shine on the spot, I completely forgot about she was in RYV lol.

[I'm a Fish]

I'm wondering if the sales jump is still true considering the amount of Jean/Phoenix click-bait covers marvel dishes out semi-regularly.

Or if it's just artist who like drawing the costume, cuz I mean, its a real good costume.

[MkDiz]

Even if he does not fix it by himself, there are healers and scientists. A grown man, even if he needs help should not alway turn to mother.

Cable is an extremely resourceful time travel who has survived all sorts of things and come back from the dead even before Krakoa, plus he was on his own since age 13.

What turn to his mother? I said it would be weird if Jean didnt get involve herself or at least show concern because it is weird. Read their team previous team ups, Jean used to always remind Cable to be careful because of his TO so if Cable's TO attack is as bad as the #5 cover shows then it would be weird for Jean to not try to help or show concern. Its just out of character

Plus they dont know much about how Cable controls the TO, they know its TK but thats about it. If they know about it then Brand wouldn't need to scheme so much just to uncover how Cable does it.

X-men red will probably include a Summers arc in which they fight against Vulcan/help him
While Jean can’t be happy over people messing with her kid he is able to handle things pretty well because he’s older than her , he’s an expert soldier not just a normal hero & according to Cable reloaded, Duggan’s Cable 12 and solicitations Cable knows stuff about the current era and is playing a long game
Also Jean caring about what people do to Cable kinda seems weird considering that she’s dating the dude who killed Cable’s son

The Summers in the current era have the weirdest plots /are the weirdest plot devices

Everyones weird in Krakoa, like even Cable himself, even as a kid he shouldn't be that friendly to Apocalypse.
Jean has always cared about Cable when hes in danger, she doesn't care that he's older or a soldier as shown multiple times. I think people forget that its been only been a few years since Jean raised Cable and from the flashbacks from that time we can see that Jean was the one primarily taking care of Nathan. The 2017 Cable series also showed that Jean and Cyclops get into arguments because Cyclops basically want Nathan to be isolated because of his TO and omega TK while Jean wants Nathan to have a normal childhood. Jean cares about Cable, probably more than Scott

falling.jpg thevirus.jpg up.jpg

Welp, whatever, didnt know wanting a Cable/Jean interaction is such a controversial topic here lol.

[Lukmendes]

I'm wondering if the sales jump is still true considering the amount of Jean/Phoenix click-bait covers marvel dishes out semi-regularly.

I mean, covers are basically clickbaits, if Jean is being used a lot in covers then at least Marvel thinks there's demand, and given how popular she is, if there wasn't demand it'd be weird.

Or if it's just artist who like drawing the costume, cuz I mean, its a real good costume.

I guess, but it still needs demand for her to show up a lot in those, unless Marvel is celebrating some birthday and she gets special treatment over the other O5, Xavier and Magneto lol.

Welp, whatever, didnt know wanting a Cable/Jean interaction is such a controversial topic here lol.

Wonder if it's 'cause he's Madelyne's kid .

[Mercury]

I'll respond to posts tomorrow. I have to hit the sack. I'm sharing this reply here to generate further discussion and to ask, Am I missing something?

1. thanks mercury for giving me the actual source material name and issue number. been looking for this for some time. I actually had the images I was looking for stored on my phone.

You're welcome!

2. I wont argue against any scans you've provided that says something different however as you mentioned above Claremont states:

"We had originally envisioned that she had a power level that was equivalent to Storm's and that saving the universe was a one-time only stunt, that it was Jean achieving her full potential for one moment."

Claremont stated the above in 1982 in The X-Men Companion. As I previously noted, three years before that (1979), he stated the following in an interview for The Comics Journal (a scan of which I finally gained access to, highlighted, and include below):

"Dave and I kind of liked the idea that we had a female character who was cosmic. No one else did. Len [Wein] objected strenuously to our using Firelord if Phoenix beat him. We couldn’t have a lady character who’s cosmic, because—well, his argument was that it made the rest of the X-Men superfluous...We got around it by having the fight be a draw...So, anyway, we were told, Dave and I, that Phoenix could not be cosmic. And when the editor passes down an edict, you're stuck with it. We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine.”

This would indicate that Jean was in fact given phoenix to put her own Storm's level. Claremont via cyclops even states as she is using this power Jean was always the weakest xmen:

The quote I referenced above, which is from an older interview, explicitly states the exact opposite. Unless you are implying that Claremont lied in the 1979 interview, it's clear—to me, at least—that in the quote from three years later (1982), which seems to be the crux of your argument, he is conflating the editorial "edict" that was "passed down" to him, i.e., "We couldn't have a lady character who's cosmic," with his decision to "cut [Jean/Phoenix] down to roughly where Storm is."

Regarding Jean's power levels, it's telling that Claremont had Scott refer to Jean as once being "the weakest X-Man"—that's a character's subjective opinion—rather than make this claim as an objective narrator, especially considering his fondness for using expository captions. And again, I can simply rebut that with the panel below from 1968, which speaks for itself:

3. To the point about Storm not being a cosmic hero that injtially would make sense as at that time xmen battles were pretty much restricted to that on earth. however if you look to the events before Jean was copied/possessed storm used solar winds (cosmic powers) to destroy a sentinel. (note below she calls it the cosmic storm).

You bring up a valid point; one to which my reply is twofold:

1) Solar winds are scientifically established natural phenomena, i.e., they are not cosmic in the mystical/metaphysical sense but rather in the literal sense, as in they occur literally in the cosmos, or space, as "space weather." When Ororo wonders, "What if my powers include the cosmic storm as well," I believe Claremont intended her question to mean, "What if my powers include controlling space weather as well?" Of course, this was and is within her capabilities.

2) However, when Claremont referred to "cosmic superhero[s]" (e.g., Thor, Silver Surfer, etc.), it's clear he was referring to characters capable of cosmic feats in the mystical/metaphysical sense, such as resurrecting themselves, traveling through space without the aid of a spacesuit, and repairing the M'Kraan Crystal, itself a mystical/metaphysical concept or construct—all of which Jean/Phoenix did. At the time, as written and conceived by Claremont, Storm was not capable of accomplishing either of the aforementioned feats.

In short, while Claremont did establish that Ororo could manipulate weather outside of Earth, i.e., space weather or "the cosmic storm," he didn't attribute any mystical/metaphysical abilities to her at that time the way he did to Jean/Phoenix.

It was later revealed to me in the xmen classic books this was changed to show her not using cosmic winds to fly on or destroy the sentinels. instead they had her using a jet pack and destroy the sentinel with bio electric lightning. the thought behind this being if storm could control the solar winds there would have been no need for Jean to attempt to shield the space ship from the solar flare as ororo could have simply controlled it.

That's not the only scene he changed. In the Classic X-Men reprint of Uncanny X-Men #108, Claremont also made significant changes to the scene in which Jean/Phoenix repairs the M'Kraan Crystal, with Ororo and Corsair acting as anchors. He revised the scene to not only have Phoenix fail upon her first attempt with Ororo and Corsair, only to need help from Xavier and all of the X-Men present, but also to have her encounter and fight off Dark Phoenix, amongst several other changes he made to the original story. As for whether he changed the scene in which Ororo is shown manipulating space weather so that it wouldn't make the scene in which Jean shields the space shuttle from radiation unnecessary, I honestly don't know. I have yet to read an interview in which he states this, though it is possible that was his reasoning and intention.

Additionally, Claremont drafted plots several months in advance of publication. In the scan below, he reveals that although Uncanny X-Men #97 was published in February 1976, it was actually plotted in the summer of 1975, roughly half a year in advance. Ororo's feat was in issue #98 and Jean's feat was two issues later, in #100. Phoenix's first appearance was in issue #101. I think it's safe to assume that he knew what he was doing with Ororo and Jean and had already plotted the introduction of Phoenix and her battle with the cosmic supervillain Firelord by the time issue #98 was published.

In other words, despite having Ororo manipulate space weather, or "the cosmic storm," neither he nor the editors considered her a female cosmic, i.e., mystical/metaphysical, superhero in the same way they considered Jean/Phoenix, otherwise, they wouldn't have "decided to cut [Jean/Phoenix] down to roughly where Storm is." Incidentally, he reduced Phoenix's power levels after she repaired the M'Kraan Crystal.

point being storm was already shown as a cosmic force in the original xmen and before Jean became Phoenix or was replaced by Phoenix. whichever version you follow.

Again, Ororo was depicted as being able to control space weather, "the cosmic storm"; however, she was neither described nor shown manifesting as a "cosmic force" in the mystical/metaphysical sense.

I would argue based upon the canonical evidence at the time Claremont certainly had demonstrated storm was a cosmic force prior to Jean getting Phoenix (or Phoenix taking on jeans form); therefore, this would indicate she wasn't meant to be the first female cosmic character. it also further demonstrates that if even editorial felt the need to change the above scans to what was shown in classic the xoffices clearly saw storm being capable of controlling cosmic forces. to not invalidate Jean in that moment they made that change. all in all in doesnt take away from Jean but Ororo was doing something that women characters at that time never did, especially black female characters - that is being powerful, not dependent on a man and a leader. Claremont really struck gold with the manner in which he chose to deoict storm and again it was revolutionary at that time.

As I indicated above, all evidence points to Claremont making a distinction between being able to manipulate natural cosmic phenomena, such as space weather, and being a cosmic, i.e., mystical/metaphysical, superhero/villain in the vein of Thor, Silver Surfer, Firelord, Galactus et al. who are capable of mystical/metaphysical feats outside naturally occurring phenomena. Still, this doesn't invalidate Ororo or negate her space weather/cosmic storm feat or role as a groundbreaking female and, more importantly, black female character. It also doesn't invalidate or contradict her later feats and upgrades, especially after the death of Jean/Phoenix.

Ultimately, the quotes and screenshots I have posted clarify the following two points, which was my intent from the very beginning:

1) Jean was not "given Phoenix to put her on Storm's level" because a) she was already categorized as having "infinite mental powers" nearly a decade before Ororo was introduced and b) Claremont himself admitted he was prompted to "cut her down to roughly where Storm is" due to editorial resistance. To state otherwise is to both imply that he was lying during the 1979 interview and attribute a claim to him that he never made.

2) Even with her space weather/cosmic storm feat, neither Claremont nor those above him considered Ororo to be a cosmic superhero in the mystical/metaphysical sense at that time. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had a problem with Phoenix being a cosmic superhero. However, that's not to say that she isn't considered one now.

[Grinning Soul]

To all Storm fans lurking:

Most of us here *adore* Storm. If you guys want to argue that Storm is more powerful than Jean, have at it. But would you please move this battle to Ororo's appreciation?

We prefer to argue about Jean's uniforms and codenames over here. :P

I jest, but I'm serious.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Anyone pitting Jean and Storm against one another when neither one gets any legitimate love from The Powers That Be in the last 20 years at least is playing directly into the sexism, or Byrneism, if you will.

Does it matter who is the Most Powerful Female Who Doesn't Do Anything or Have Her Stories Actually Count in Continuity? No.

We should be in lockstep but yall wanna battleboard. Lmao I cannot.

[Grinning Soul]

Anyone pitting Jean and Storm against one another when neither one gets any legitimate love from The Powers That Be in the last 20 years at least is playing directly into the sexism, or Byrneism, if you will.

Does it matter who is the Most Powerful Female Who Doesn't Do Anything or Have Her Stories Actually Count in Continuity? No.

We should be in lockstep but yall wanna battleboard. Lmao I cannot.

You do realise that Mercury will try to prove that Jean is getting lots of love, right?

Seriously, guys: never change! :D

[MkDiz]

Wonder if it's 'cause he's Madelyne's kid .

Dont know if this sarcasm or anything but I always wonder if people who seriously says stuff like this goes to adopted kids and be like "Technically she's not your mom and technically she's not your son/daughter" whenever they hear them call their adoptive parents mom and vice versa. I have cousins who are adopted, if I told my uncle "hey dont call him your son" I swear he's going to beat the **** out of me

Not saying its fair to Maddie but the only mom Cable knew was Jean, he considers her his mother and Jean, while acknowledging that she's not the one who gave birth to him has said that Nathan is her son in all ways that matter.

Also, I'm well aware that Nathan/Cable is Madelyne's child. Anyway, if this discussion is really not welcome on this thread then I'll just stfu

[Grinning Soul]

Welp, whatever, didnt know wanting a Cable/Jean interaction is such a controversial topic here lol.

When it comes to Jean, fans disagree a lot.

I love all the mommy stuff you can throw at her, but some people hate it. And some people are just conflicted about it.

I think people who'd like to see Jean being a parent (even if it's a parent to her adult children) have just learnt that it's not worth bringing the subject up here.

But you're definitely not alone.

[MkDiz]

Well blatant "mommy" stuff makes me cringe as well since they're all adults but it would be really cool to see Jean, Cable and maybe Rachel work together. Plus I love the simple moments like when Jean told Cable that she's proud of him after a battle, not overly "mommy" but acknowledge their history.

I'm especially fond of the relationship between Cable and Jean because its what made me read the X men comics (To find out what Jean meant when she read Cable's mind in the 1992 X men animated series)

I thought as much but I'm just new here. Back to FB groups and reddit I guess lol. But yeah, I'm starved for meaningful Jean and Cable interactions since Jean was dead when all the interesting Cable stuff happened (Savior, the Messiah Trilogy etc)

[Grinning Soul]

Well blatant mommy stuff makes me cringe as well since they're adults but it would be really cool to see Jean, Cable and maybe Rachel work together. I'm especially fond of the relationship between Cable and Jean because its what made me read the X men comics (To find out what Jean meant when she read Cable's mind in the 1992 X men animated series)

I thought as much but I'm just new here. Back to FB groups and reddit I guess lol.

That's exactly the point: it's about the levels of tolerance.

My tolerance for motherhood cringe is almost infinite. I'm much more likely to go "awnnnnn...." then "Oh, God, please. Just. Don't..." :D

-- And yet: yes, I'm a robot --

You can talk about Jean's motherhood here too. Just know the people who have a lower tolerance to this particular cringe than you can be loud and will push back.

But yeah, I'm starved for meaningful Jean and Cable interactions since Jean was dead when all the interesting Cable stuff happened (Savior, the Messiah Trilogy etc)

I'm starved too. I love their special bond. :)