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  1. #3421
    Marvel Girl Could Never! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I don't claim to know what Tini's plans for Rachel are, so I'm not taking any position here, all right?

    It's just to kind of explain why some people are saying is not the same thing. Shogo - Jubilee's baby - become an actual dragon when they take him to Otherworld. This is the most extreme case, but other character's powers also work differently there.

    Not all characters, though? I guess? It's pretty messy.
    And they are just leaving the kid as a dragon. Way too silly for me.
    #FreeSCEMMA

    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  2. #3422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I wish I was a cynic. It'd actually spare me of a lot of headache in my life.

    Nah, I'm not a cynic. I like my heroes flawed, but heroic. I cheer for them to get their happy ending. I'm all for putting them through tough times so there is conflict in the story, something to be overcome. But I hate when writers are cruel just for the sake of creating a "big" story to put their names on.

    I don't want cynical endings in my super hero books (I'll read other genres if I'm in the mood for that). I want my heroes to struggle, but win. Get some new scars along the way, but ultimately win and learn. Become better versions of themselves.

    'Cause I don't know... That's life, right? It's what we should try to do. And if heroes aren't inspiring this kind of feeling... what's the point?

    So... I'm definitely not a cynic. I just think Marvel once agreed with what I've just described. And they don't seem to do now.

    Broken record time? That's fine. Their IPs, their choices. But it's not for me.
    Fortunately or unfortunately either because I got a chance to get X-Men comics later in life or coz of my wiring.I've never associated comics with escape, to me the are simply an exaggeration of the real world in all facets. Definitely some facets are more accentuated than others , but that's the world we live in.

  3. #3423
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    I haven't read any of your posts since I last posted and won't until tomorrow. Really, I should be sleeping, which is what Iím about to do, but I stumbled upon this pageósometimes the old girl chases me around when Iím not even looking for heróand I fell in love with it. From Marvel Legacy #1 (2017):

    Jean knows better than anyone that sometimes the dead can rise from the ashes. Remade. Reborn. Renewed. That is her legacy. Her past and her future.


    Night.
    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."

  4. #3424

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    You know I would love for you to be correct, but Rachel isn't Jean, someone was saying the other day that those aren't Phoenix powers Rachel is getting (I don't read that book so IDK) and you have been saying they are gearing up for Jean to be Phoenix for years. I would love it if the Phoenix wasn't a random powerup for a street-level character, wasn't Thor's mom, wasn't sexistly reduced to being Jean's toxic ex-boyfriend rather than something special etc, but editorial has negative respect levels for Jeannie. It's that Byrne-style mindset.

    What does tvubvs mean?


    I think Hickman was planning yet another Phoenix "original character" down the line. Somebody with a Phoenix sword killing the phalanx dominion thingies was referenced at one point.

    Phoenix is not for Jean and I feel like they have been very explicit and adamant about that for whatever Byrne-esque reason.

    Trust me , if they used the Byrne mind set Jean would have been written well a long time ago but they didnít

  5. #3425
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    And they are just leaving the kid as a dragon. Way too silly for me.
    Yep. I agree.

    I do hope something good comes for Rachel, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Fortunately or unfortunately either because I got a chance to get X-Men comics later in life or coz of my wiring.I've never associated comics with escape, to me the are simply an exaggeration of the real world in all facets. Definitely some facets are more accentuated than others , but that's the world we live in.
    I don't like the word "escape". I don't think art is escapism. I think art is expression through symbolism. And because of that it can take different forms.

    But that's yet another discussion that has nothing to do with Jean and I've already burnt too much good will here by talking about Daredevil comics with Mercury, so... I'll just leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I haven't read any of your posts since I last posted and won't until tomorrow. Really, I should be sleeping, which is what Iím about to do, but I stumbled upon this pageósometimes the old girl chases me around when Iím not even looking for heróand I fell in love with it. From Marvel Legacy #1 (2017):





    Night.
    Thanks for sharing. Sleep well. o/

  6. #3426
    The Joker was right! The Agent of Chaos's Avatar
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    I've seen people say that a Dark Phoenix Saga adaptation should be like Multiverse of Madness. I guess they want Jean to suddenly become a villain off-screen?
    Last edited by The Agent of Chaos; 05-14-2022 at 03:30 AM.

  7. #3427
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    You know I would love for you to be correct, but Rachel isn't Jean, someone was saying the other day that those aren't Phoenix powers Rachel is getting (I don't read that book so IDK) and you have been saying they are gearing up for Jean to be Phoenix for years. I would love it if the Phoenix wasn't a random powerup for a street-level character, wasn't Thor's mom, wasn't sexistly reduced to being Jean's toxic ex-boyfriend rather than something special etc, but editorial has negative respect levels for Jeannie. It's that Byrne-style mindset.

    What does tvubvs mean?


    I think Hickman was planning yet another Phoenix "original character" down the line. Somebody with a Phoenix sword killing the phalanx dominion thingies was referenced at one point.

    Phoenix is not for Jean and I feel like they have been very explicit and adamant about that for whatever Byrne-esque reason.
    I could totally be wrong, but I think it was gonna be Sunspot with the Phoenix sword. Itís a good thing Hickman is gone. Everyday Iím on this forum I have to make a choice not to complain about what they have done to the Phoenix. Lol ah, well.

  8. #3428
    Marvel Girl Could Never! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlioncomics View Post
    Trust me , if they used the Byrne mind set Jean would have been written well a long time ago but they didn’t
    lol yeah I bet

    Quote Originally Posted by The Agent of Chaos View Post
    I've seen people say that a Dark Phoenix Saga adaptation should be like Multiverse of Madness. I guess they want Jean to suddenly become a villain off-screen?
    Branding is powerful. They could essentially redo Last Stand wholesale with the branding that's cool to like rolled at the front and people would like it


    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I could totally be wrong, but I think it was gonna be Sunspot with the Phoenix sword. It’s a good thing Hickman is gone. Everyday I’m on this forum I have to make a choice not to complain about what they have done to the Phoenix. Lol ah, well.
    Oooh ok. The issue mentioned the Phoenix character as "Child of the Sun" or something like that, right? Good call.

    Hix totally would give one of his pets the Phoenix for the third time. This guess absolutely checks out.
    #FreeSCEMMA

    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  9. #3429
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Agent of Chaos View Post
    I've seen people say that a Dark Phoenix Saga adaptation should be like Multiverse of Madness. I guess they want Jean to suddenly become a villain off-screen?
    spoilers:
    Wanda didnt suddenly become a villian off screen. The capacity to do heinous things has always been a part of her and she's walked a fine line since the beginning. She's a selfish and emotional character and can be fine when things go her way but when they dont she lashes out and is easily manipulated. Being forced to kill Vision f-ed her up in ways that werent quite apparent in IW and its been downhill since. The explanation for her actions is corruption from the Darkhold and that only heightened her selfishness and made her not care about ramifications of her actions.
    end of spoilersUnlike Jean in past films, Wanda actually had a character arc that was followed through multiple films and a tv show over years to get her here. Even if you dont like or agree with what was done with her, there is actual material there to debate and discuss. That wasnt the case for Jean in TLS nor DP

  10. #3430
    The Joker was right! The Agent of Chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Branding is powerful. They could essentially redo Last Stand wholesale with the branding that's cool to like rolled at the front and people would like it
    Now that you mention it. The Last Stand also suddenly made Jean into a villain off-screen. I guess branding does matter.
    Last edited by The Agent of Chaos; 05-14-2022 at 05:43 AM.

  11. #3431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    You know I would love for you to be correct, but Rachel isn't Jean, someone was saying the other day that those aren't Phoenix powers Rachel is getting (I don't read that book so IDK) and you have been saying they are gearing up for Jean to be Phoenix for years. I would love it if the Phoenix wasn't a random powerup for a street-level character, wasn't Thor's mom, wasn't sexistly reduced to being Jean's toxic ex-boyfriend rather than something special etc, but editorial has negative respect levels for Jeannie. It's that Byrne-style mindset.

    What does tvubvs mean?


    I think Hickman was planning yet another Phoenix "original character" down the line. Somebody with a Phoenix sword killing the phalanx dominion thingies was referenced at one point.

    Phoenix is not for Jean and I feel like they have been very explicit and adamant about that for whatever Byrne-esque reason.
    I read Knights of X and I know. Tini Howard, the writer of the book said Otherworld brought those powers out in Rachel because it saw that she has been a Phoenix host. Those are Phoenix powers. That development means X-Men writers can now use anything Phoenix enshrined they want to, now that Hickman is GONE.

    When Hickman was in the books, we never actually had Jean even reference her past as Phoenix. Now she dies just before she has to kick ass, and just before an event where she has to kick ass and anyone not willfully covering up their eyes can see this.

    I want to be clear I am not arguing against you, my reply to both of your posts is for the benefit of others. Interpret things as you will.

  12. #3432

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    [QUOTE=Kitty&Piotr<3;6047948]lol yeah I bet

    Read his F4 comics , see how he wrote Sue and compare it to how Jean Grey has been written since her return in 86
    Not a lot of writers wrote Jean well the way he did Sue (some have came close but they never reached his level and unlike his Sue their writing didnít change the general status quo for Jean)

    There is also his opposition to Claremontís decision to retcon Jean & Logan as mutual lovers which is something he didnít do to Sue and Namor

    I know I might feel negative but Iím not , Iím just saying that Johny Byrne can actually write strong females without falling into tropes traps or messing with his stories when editors donít want him to do something

  13. #3433
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I could totally be wrong, but I think it was gonna be Sunspot with the Phoenix sword. It’s a good thing Hickman is gone. Everyday I’m on this forum I have to make a choice not to complain about what they have done to the Phoenix. Lol ah, well.
    Yes. In that drawing it looked like Sunspot. But Hickman is gone so not happening.

  14. #3434
    The Joker was right! The Agent of Chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    spoilers:
    Wanda didnt suddenly become a villian off screen. The capacity to do heinous things has always been a part of her and she's walked a fine line since the beginning. She's a selfish and emotional character and can be fine when things go her way but when they dont she lashes out and is easily manipulated. Being forced to kill Vision f-ed her up in ways that werent quite apparent in IW and its been downhill since. The explanation for her actions is corruption from the Darkhold and that only heightened her selfishness and made her not care about ramifications of her actions.
    end of spoilersUnlike Jean in past films, Wanda actually had a character arc that was followed through multiple films and a tv show over years to get her here. Even if you dont like or agree with what was done with her, there is actual material there to debate and discuss. That wasnt the case for Jean in TLS nor DP
    The corruption by the darkhold did indeed happen off-screen. That is what I'm referring to. That is like not showing the Hellfire Club corrupt Jean and just telling us that it happened.

    Also, Jean in Dark Phoenix only killed Mystique and that was an accident. I don't see how Jean committing involuntary manslaughter is even remotely comparable to Wanda unapologetically murdering people and attempting to kill a child.

  15. #3435
    The Joker was right! The Agent of Chaos's Avatar
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    The more I think about it...Wanda in Age of Ultron was closer to a villain than Jean was in Dark Phoenix. Since she unleashed the Hulk on a city.
    Last edited by The Agent of Chaos; 05-14-2022 at 06:33 AM.

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