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  1. #4756
    Incredible Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Since I’ve been in arguments about this before, I suppose I will answer this too…..

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    Nothing at all...but here I thought this was a forum for "discussion".

    I'm honestly over you and multiple other commenters in this thread projecting your own thoughts and feelings onto my comments. I don't need you or anyone else to interpret what I'm stating, I'm very clear and concise in my statements.
    This, I don’t think I have done this, but I will offer some possibilities that could be happening for the other side (wallstreeter will answer for themselves). Talking through the text on a screen is not easy to interpret on tone. That could be one reason there is usually an issue in miscommunication.

    Another possibility is that, you are wrong about you being concise and clear. You thought you were clear, but they obviously misinterpreted what you said. Thereby, either they are slow to understanding (in which you need patience to help them get there) or you saying you are not always clear and concise 100% of the time. No, you never stated you were. I’m just stating that as a mere fact that can happen.

    Whatever the case may be, this is a problem of patience on both sides. The listener should take into account what you are actually saying and you need to make sure they aren’t focusing on a single aspect that misses the entire point. It’s hard, but if you really want to be heard, then it’s a step you gotta take with imperfect individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    The point I was making if it weren't clear enough, if Lorna or some weather manipulator appeared in this very issue and were called the most powerful metal manipulator or weather manipulator in the universe, while Omega Level Magneto or Storm appeared in the same issue in a passive role, yes their fans would be questioning the validity of that statement.
    This is a statement where I agree with you on. In fact, when the Omega Level list came out, people went on about how Xavier was more deserving of the spot than Jean or wondering why Rachel or Nate Grey or Cable were excluded. It’s a natural conclusion to jump to. And I would hardly call making a discussion about it be equivalent to the same people that would rant and rave anywhere else. This whole thing is being made more of a bigger deal than Omega_DCD initially meant for it to be.

    While I don’t agree with the idea that this changes anything or is a sign of things going back to the status quo of earlier stories, I do understand why people would start questioning it because there were better ways to praise Charles telepathy than calling him the most powerful in the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    I often wonder why some of you are even fans of Jean.
    Then by all accounts, ask. As far as I am concerned, there isn’t a required measure to be identified as a fan of anything, whether they buy every bit of Jean merchandise or just like the movies or 90’s tv show.

    I do understand wallstreeters side as well. It is annoying to constantly hear complaints. There should be a balance of both positivity and critique. I do think Wallstreeter did handle things incorrectly, but questioning their stance as a fan certainly isn’t helping things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    As long as she's superficially involved in stories your happy, even when those stories add nothing of depth to her character and she's consistently having something taken from her.
    That’s an exaggeration and you know it. I agree, Wallstreeter isn’t handling this correctly, but this certainly is not the way either. No singular opinion is the correct one and him doing so to you is not an invitation for you to do the same.

    Believe it or not, Jean having cameos is a good thing. If you want your society to be more believable, you would have to show how the community involves themselves in upkeeping the society. That includes Jean Grey, who is perhaps the one of the most involved people on Krakoa, even after leaving the Council. How people interact with her, think of her, or what we see her doing is all apart of world-building that is important to creating a believable world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    What's worse is, I'm thoroughly read on Jean, I don't require any assistance on understanding her capabilities, or placement within the X-men telepathic hierarchy. Your last comment reveals the entire problem with her character and use in this issue, why is she constantly put in situations that aren't even about her or her development?
    This, I cannot say one way or the other. I don’t think anyone can say one way or the other. As much as the thread makes assumptions about what the writer was thinking, unless the writer themselves make clear what they were intending to do with a story, we are not gonna know if you are even correct about Jean being purposely put in a situation or if it was something the writer did not think about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    Ask yourselves this, take Jean completely out of this issue...what changes? Now ask yourself the same question about Storm, Magneto, or Xavier.
    We lose Jean’s more reliable perspective of the situation going on with Storm regarding Xavier’s absence from the chamber, which is valuable for how brief of a moment it is. Put Emma, Monet, the Cuckoo’s, or Quentin in Jean’s spot, and they most likely would snark about Storm being an important Regent elsewhere and be flippant about whether Storm will see Xavier or not. Leave Hope or Exodus there alone and they will express having no clue what is going on. Put Rachel, Captain Britain, Selene, or Psylocke there and you have an issue with timelines between different books.

    We would lose a moment of Jean being involved as a back-up to Resurrection when Xavier is unavailable. Yes, we know she has been before, but we didn’t know if her X-Men activities would keep her away from those responsibilities and this answers that it doesn’t. There is importance to small moments like these, even if they don’t fundamentally change Jean’s character for the better or worse. It might be as simple as Ewing didn’t think about it that way. We just don’t know, but we can’t act like Jean being there was not necessary.

  2. #4757
    Incredible Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I'm just curious what the retrospective on these *amazing* Jean stories will be in 10 years. I am personally told that these are absolutely *amazing* appearances by Jean, yet I doubt anyone will remember anything about these stories besides "Jean was nostalgic for the 60s" and "she kissed Wolverine in a bath tub". Like, someone raves on occasion about how epic Jean quitting the Quiet Council was because no one would let her save teen Cable, and I'm just like "that was yesterday and I already forgot it, for one because the details of the situation weren't interesting", and that's supposed to be the hallmark for the character in current days. It feels like gaslighting lmao
    Oh gee. Opinions are different from yours. Imagine that on the internet of all places. Speaking for everyone on every side thinking the other side is wrong for feeling the way they do about Jean’s development (positive OR negative), I am gonna use a quote you made around page 300 or so:

    “Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. No, you cannot script mine.”

  3. #4758
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    The most interesting thing about people saying Jean fans just want her to do feats, or whatever the pejorative thought is, is that we can laugh at our character and see her failing better than anyone. Well, alot of us anyway. Some Jean fans will be absolutely livid for making fun of the character having a lame moment. But on the whole, mainly because we have had to, we can take the brunt of our character being put down by the stories themselves better than any fanbase, by far.

    Except maybe Storm fans. 'Ro did not have her decade for more than a couple decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    Oh gee. Opinions are different from yours. Imagine that on the internet of all places. Speaking for everyone on every side thinking the other side is wrong for feeling the way they do about Jean’s development (positive OR negative), I am gonna use a quote you made around page 300 or so:

    “Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. No, you cannot script mine.”
    That's a great quote. Use it on me when I tell you that you what kind of take you should have on a comic.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 07-01-2022 at 04:27 PM.

  4. #4759
    Incredible Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    And the reason for Jean not being able to sit on the quiet council and lead the xmen team now screams of bs. Hickman just didnt know how to write her and it shows.
    Agreed heavily. I think it’s probably a legitimate downfall of Hickman to write characters with incredible power not named Magneto. As far as females go, based on his creation of the character, Black Swan, I think he simply has a preference for morally Grey female characters.

    I don’t disagree with the preference, but that does make his writing very limiting in retrospect. Her moral opposition to someone like Jean Grey, Captain America, or Spider-Man would be a good challenge to their values in the face of problems and provide a pragmatic viewpoint against more ideal stances.



    Thus, it also can naturally spark emotional responses when written well. Yet, it feels like that is the only character he can write well as far as female characters go. His Emma is amazing, his Mystique is relatable, and Storm has just enough edge to her for Hickman to lean on her thieving background to portray a hardened character ready to snap you in half if you cross her. Yet, when it comes to Jean, someone passionate about good moral values and will put anyone in their place if they step out of line, he seems to fall short on capturing her character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    Case in point Storm is going to be leading her brotherhood, sit in the krakoan council, sit on arakko’s council with no issues. But Jean had to pick one or the other? Kinda bs if you ask me.
    I don’t have as much of a problem with that. At least he finally had her do something relevant to the plot. It would be absolutely atrocious if he were to make her scared about losing a high leading position. She comes off more of a supportive wife role though like Kitty says. I don’t mind it personally because it does remind us of Jean’s devotion to more than just the dream and her responsibilities on Krakoa, but if I am being critical, that doesn’t make his Jean compelling character-wise.

    It’s not offensive, which I am glad about. It is not ground-breaking. It is very middle road and too safe.

  5. #4760
    Incredible Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    What some might consider "crumbs" (and they're perfectly valid for thinking that as they are the ones spending their money and time being invested in this character) others would consider "development" (and they would be just as valid for thinking that for the very same reasons).
    My interpretation of Jean is never going to be Merc's interpretation of Jean...we both fully understand this and yet we can both acknowledge and appreciate each other's love for the character...and that is okies, as it should be. My "disagreements" with some of their perspectives cannot in any way devalue what they think, feel and believe about Jean...unless they want/allow it to.

    Having and offering a different perspective on what is written in story isn't undermining another's thoughts and input...unless it's done deliberately and we all know who those persons are...it's just offering a different perspective, to either be acknowledge (in agreement or disagreement) or completely ignored.
    Exactly this is what I mean.

  6. #4761
    Incredible Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    That's a great quote. Use it on me when I tell you that you what kind of take you should have on a comic.
    Nah, I will use it now for your snide sarcasm about them being happy about- how did you put it? “Jean’s *amazing* stories”. I am sure these *amazing* stories are not your taste, but I think you don’t deserve an answer for mockingly calling these stories *amazing* as if people who thought as much were being ridiculous.

    Both directly curtailing opinions and slyly shaming people are wrong, but I can at least give credit to the former for being upfront about an issue, rather than the latter implying that the stories they like are something to be ashamed of while hiding behind a mask of simple curiosity as if you didn’t just imply something else.

  7. #4762
    The Red Dragon Tank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    Agreed heavily. I think it’s probably a legitimate downfall of Hickman to write characters with incredible power not named Magneto. As far as females go, based on his creation of the character, Black Swan, I think he simply has a preference for morally Grey female characters.

    I don’t disagree with the preference, but that does make his writing very limiting in retrospect. Her moral opposition to someone like Jean Grey, Captain America, or Spider-Man would be a good challenge to their values in the face of problems and provide a pragmatic viewpoint against more ideal stances.


    Thus, it also can naturally spark emotional responses when written well. Yet, it feels like that is the only character he can write well as far as female characters go. His Emma is amazing, his Mystique is relatable, and Storm has just enough edge to her for Hickman to lean on her thieving background to portray a hardened character ready to snap you in half if you cross her. Yet, when it comes to Jean, someone passionate about good moral values and will put anyone in their place if they step out of line, he seems to fall short on capturing her character.



    I don’t have as much of a problem with that. At least he finally had her do something relevant to the plot. It would be absolutely atrocious if he were to make her scared about losing a high leading position. She comes off more of a supportive wife role though like Kitty says. I don’t mind it personally because it does remind us of Jean’s devotion to more than just the dream and her responsibilities on Krakoa, but if I am being critical, that doesn’t make his Jean compelling character-wise.

    It’s not offensive, which I am glad about. It is not ground-breaking. It is very middle road and too safe.
    Well said. But I didnt expect Jean to be scared per se of losing a high leading position for any personal stake in power, but she is an intelligent character that knows she can have a positive influence on the other more shady side of the council. The Stubborn , take no nonsense Jean would have said “im keeping this seat so I can keep you lot in check AND i’m going to save my son. Try and stop me.” And given storm and other characters pulling double duty the reasoning Hickman provided that neither her nor Scott could be on the council along with the Xmen team just didnt sit right with me and makes zero sense with the logic applied to others.

    She could have failed and they still voted her off but it shows character more than what simply amounts to “im sad about it, but ok”.
    It could have been a compelling character moment like you said but was just middling because Hickman cant write anyone who isnt an antihero. It’s like he doesnt realize the heroic heroes have their edge too or can make morally grey decisions. It’s often what makes it way more entertaining when the heroic characters have to make the tough choices or forced in tough situations that isnt always just one right choice. The typical morally grey anti heros making these choices is less compellimg since it’s expected, typical. It’s why I’m always fascinated when Jean over steps her bounds, does something morally debatable. Arguably her most popular and central versions are when she gets to cut loose, have an edge and be a little morally flexible: see the claremont’s various times writing her, Morrison, and even teen Jean.

    And honestly Hickman’s voice for Storm felt off too. I thought she along with Jean was brainwashed or reset to other versions when his run started.

    Someone please give Jean her fire back. I’m hoping it’s Gillen just from his brief description of how her leadership style differs from Cyclops.
    Last edited by Tank; 07-01-2022 at 06:40 PM.

  8. #4763
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    Nah, I will use it now for your snide sarcasm about them being happy about- how did you put it? “Jean’s *amazing* stories”. I am sure these *amazing* stories are not your taste, but I think you don’t deserve an answer for mockingly calling these stories *amazing* as if people who thought as much were being ridiculous.

    Both directly curtailing opinions and slyly shaming people are wrong, but I can at least give credit to the former for being upfront about an issue, rather than the latter implying that the stories they like are something to be ashamed of while hiding behind a mask of simple curiosity as if you didn’t just imply something else.
    Sorry, I thought I was pretty direct, rather than implying. What I meant was that I suspect people will look back on today's Jean stories and think they are terrible, or just there at best.

    You can say they are great, I can say they are terrible, and there are probably some who think great and terrible are both too strong of words. I called the stories *amazing* because I was editorially told they are amazing and the topic was about telling people what they can say. The point is, someone might say a story you like is terrible, or use any number of adjectives and metaphors to say it's bad... even when you say they can't say that...and still the world will turn.

    Also, someone putting down a story you like is not a personal attack on you.

  9. #4764
    The Red Dragon Tank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Sorry, I thought I was pretty direct, rather than implying. What I meant was that I suspect people will look back on today's Jean stories and think they are terrible, or just there at best.

    You can say they are great, I can say they are terrible, and there are probably some who think great and terrible are both too strong of words. I called the stories *amazing* because I was editorially told they are amazing and the topic was about telling people what they can say. The point is, someone might say a story you like is terrible, or use any number of adjectives and metaphors to say it's bad... even when you say they can't say that...and still the world will turn.

    Also, someone putting down a story you like is not a personal attack on you.
    I think the run in general will eventually go down as overhyped, not just in regards to Jean.
    Even people who claim that the Hickman era was the next Claremont or Morrison right now probably wont see it that way in the long run. The thing with Morrison and Claremont’s runs were not only they were mostly self contained but the story had a finite ending. Hickman’s swansong was Inferno which ultimately felt like the little spark you get when you light a match. And ultimately his run is just spoiled by too many cooks, he bit off more than he can chew. Even now when his ideas havent been retconned away they are changing—-omega. Or his oh resurrection will prevent deaths from being cheap(he’s SO smart) has made death even matter less and even more of a joke than it once was.

    All that for some mostly forgettable characterizations except for his favorite pet characters and the dumbing down of the xmen in not only taking in their mortal enemies but giving them seats of power. Plus destroying one of the long standing human allies (Moira).

    I dont think this run will be fondly remembered like Morrison or Claremont’s once it’s all over.
    Last edited by Tank; 07-01-2022 at 07:38 PM.

  10. #4765
    Incredible Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    Well said. But I didnt expect Jean to be scared per se of losing a high leading position for any personal stake in power, but she is an intelligent character that knows she can have a positive influence on the other more shady side of the council. The Stubborn , take no nonsense Jean would have said “im keeping this seat so I can keep you lot in check AND i’m going to save my son. Try and stop me.” And given storm and other characters pulling double duty the reasoning Hickman provided that neither her nor Scott could be on the council along with the Xmen team just didnt sit right with me and makes zero sense with the logic applied to others.
    It’s probably another X-Force situation, where Hickman didn’t want someone keeping accountability on the Council. I remember Ben once said that he knew Jean was gonna have to leave in order to continue forward with Beast devolving further into his tyrranical role. I suspect Hickman did not see an angle he could use Jean in that would match the same corruptibility as Xavier or Moira, didn’t see her as petty enough to calculate her revenge like Emma did, and didn’t want an Omega Telepath getting any suspicion about secrets behind the scenes.

    He wanted to up the drama and didn’t know how Jean could be implemented, the same way why he couldn’t figure out how to raise the stakes in X of Swords without basically nerfing the characters to make the odds seem insurmountable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    She could have failed and they still voted her off but it shows character more than what simply amounts to “im sad about it, but ok”.
    I don’t know. That is kind of tricky to portray without making Jean come off as childish and prejudice. Perhaps something a little milder, like her at least arguing with Xavier in disbelief about him actually agreeing with this. It would be telling of her viewpoint of him and what standards she holds him to as her former mentor. That could have changed the fundamentals of their relationship and possibly give her a sense of betrayal that he wouldn’t support her after all that she was taught by him to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    It could have been a compelling character moment like you said but was just middling because Hickman cant write anyone who isnt an antihero. It’s like he doesnt realize the heroic heroes have their edge too or can make morally grey decisions. It’s often what makes it way more entertaining when the heroic characters have to make the tough choices or forced in tough situations that isnt always just one right choice. The typical morally grey anti heros making these choices is less compellimg since it’s expected, typical. It’s why I’m always fascinated when Jean over steps her bounds, does something morally debatable. Arguably her most popular and central versions are when she gets to cut loose, have an edge and be a little morally flexible: see the claremont’s various times writing her, Morrison, and even teen Jean.
    True. My personal favorite moments are where Jean thinks she is right to do something, showing how dangerous it can be to have an attitude of self-righteousness, which can happen to even the best of heroes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    And honestly Hickman’s voice for Storm felt off too. I thought she along with Jean was brainwashed or reset to other versions when his run started.

    Someone please give Jean her fire back. I’m hoping it’s Gillen just from his brief description of how her leadership style differs from Cyclops.
    I don’t know. There are some portrayal that did feel off like the Resurrection announcement thing she did in House of X, but there were others that did feel better. Like her Giant-Size solo issue. His Storm is hit and miss in my eyes, but I am pretty certain only Storm fans will know definitively if Hickman actually hit the right chord for Storm’s character.

    Gillen did seem to have some sort of bluntness with Jean’s voice, based on what very little dialogue he gave her back in Uncanny. So I am hoping for the best.


  11. #4766
    The Red Dragon Tank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    It’s probably another X-Force situation, where Hickman didn’t want someone keeping accountability on the Council. I remember Ben once said that he knew Jean was gonna have to leave in order to continue forward with Beast devolving further into his tyrranical role. I suspect Hickman did not see an angle he could use Jean in that would match the same corruptibility as Xavier or Moira, didn’t see her as petty enough to calculate her revenge like Emma did, and didn’t want an Omega Telepath getting any suspicion about secrets behind the scenes.

    He wanted to up the drama and didn’t know how Jean could be implemented, the same way why he couldn’t figure out how to raise the stakes in X of Swords without basically nerfing the characters to make the odds seem insurmountable.



    I don’t know. That is kind of tricky to portray without making Jean come off as childish and prejudice. Perhaps something a little milder, like her at least arguing with Xavier in disbelief about him actually agreeing with this. It would be telling of her viewpoint of him and what standards she holds him to as her former mentor. That could have changed the fundamentals of their relationship and possibly give her a sense of betrayal that he wouldn’t support her after all that she was taught by him to do.



    True. My personal favorite moments are where Jean thinks she is right to do something, showing how dangerous it can be to have an attitude of self-righteousness, which can happen to even the best of heroes.



    I don’t know. There are some portrayal that did feel off like the Resurrection announcement thing she did in House of X, but there were others that did feel better. Like her Giant-Size solo issue. His Storm is hit and miss in my eyes, but I am pretty certain only Storm fans will know definitively if Hickman actually hit the right chord for Storm’s character.

    Gillen did seem to have some sort of bluntness with Jean’s voice, based on what very little dialogue he gave her back in Uncanny. So I am hoping for the best.

    All your alternative scenarios regarding that council scene during swords of x where Jean and Scott quit would have been better and more character driven for both Jean and Xavier and their relationship then what we got. In fact, I feel like I dont get a good sense of Jean and Xavier’s relationship during this era. Does she even know about Moira now? Does he care he kept those secrets or still keeping those secrets from his most trusted pupils? How would Jean feel? So many interesting character interactions swept under the rug because Hickman just wanted to move pieces from point a to b without the legwork.

    And dont get me started on the time skip where Scott and Jean are a couple again but we miss how they got there. So much to discuss regarding her death, his death, the affair etc how did they come to the arrangement or whatever it is they have now? Those are the character developments I want to see.

    The little snippet you posted of jean talking to Scott from the white hot room gives me hope Gillen will write her as fiery and no nonsense.

    Also quoting Mercury:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Just to give everyone an idea of how Gillen perceives or "hears" Jean's voice, in his recent appearance on CerebroCast (the Sinister episode), he spoke about writing Scott's "Summers Protocol" data page and referenced the footnote that instructs, "Also, see page 3, chapter 1, entitled, 'You Are Unsuitable For Command At This Time. Please Pass Command To Someone Who Can Recognize A Sentinel,'" reiterating, "Scott [would say], 'You are unsuited for command," but:

    "Jean would say, 'For ****'s sake, stop doing that.'

    That spoke volumes to me. For those interested, the moment comes after 41 minutes and 30 seconds in the episode. Link: https://redcircle.com/shows/fcf903ec...3-67b55aa75ae0
    Last edited by Tank; 07-01-2022 at 08:13 PM.

  12. #4767
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    I think the run in general will eventually go down as overhyped, not just in regards to Jean.
    Even people who claim that the Hickman era was the next Claremont or Morrison right now probably wont see it that way in the long run. The thing with Morrison and Claremont’s runs were not only they were mostly self contained but the story had a finite ending. Hickman’s swansong was Inferno which ultimately felt like the little spark you get when you light a match. And ultimately his run is just spoiled by too many cooks, he bit off more than he can chew. Even now when his ideas havent been retconned away they are changing—-omega. Or his oh resurrection will prevent deaths from being cheap(he’s SO smart) has made death even matter less and even more of a joke than it once was.

    All that for some mostly forgettable characterizations except for his favorite pet characters and the dumbing down of the xmen in not only taking in their mortal enemies but giving them seats of power. Plus destroying one of the long standing human allies (Moira).

    I dont think this run will be fondly remembered like Morrison or Claremont’s once it’s all over.
    When it comes to weird ideas, I think the run will be remembered well.

    Hickman's execution was always hit and miss for me, but the stuff he did with Krakoa, the teleporting flowers, medicines and whatnot, those are cool.

    Characterization? Cyke had his moments I guess, Mystique and Emma were favorites to the point everyone else becomes dumber for their plans to work, Xavier... Not sure how many like or care about the way he's acting, Destiny, I think the way he wrote her is cool, but dunno if it's impactful.

    Moira is probably more of a case of those liking what her powers mean than what they did with her character, specially after Inferno.

    Not that I'm saying that Moira's sudden change of characterization is disliked, since plenty of people here defend her, but I got the impression the power is liked more than her change of personality, and the personality side may be less liked after Inferno.

    It's also worth keeping in mind that after a while, runs are remembered more for what's impactful, positive or negative, than whatever random flaws, after all, final chapters of Morrison's run are pretty divisive, but their run is pretty fondly remembered anyways, Hickman will benefit from this too just for Krakoa alone, but I agree that it probably won't be on Morrison's level, much less Claremont's.

    By the way, what picture is your avatar from? I'm pretty sure it was posted here but that was probably too many pages ago lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    It’s probably another X-Force situation, where Hickman didn’t want someone keeping accountability on the Council. I remember Ben once said that he knew Jean was gonna have to leave in order to continue forward with Beast devolving further into his tyrranical role. I suspect Hickman did not see an angle he could use Jean in that would match the same corruptibility as Xavier or Moira, didn’t see her as petty enough to calculate her revenge like Emma did, and didn’t want an Omega Telepath getting any suspicion about secrets behind the scenes.

    He wanted to up the drama and didn’t know how Jean could be implemented, the same way why he couldn’t figure out how to raise the stakes in X of Swords without basically nerfing the characters to make the odds seem insurmountable.
    Wanting Jean out of the picture to make it more dramatic is an odd decision to be fair, having more heroic people on the Quiet Council, specially a good telepath, could potentially have the more villainous members try to be sneakier to not be found by her, which can make it more exciting to keep track off.

    The way Quiet Council was like after a while is basically, everyone has secrets, they're aware of some of 'em, even some nastier ones, but do nothing unless it's something real bad (Like Sinister trying to clone Tarn), meh... If the good members could be an actual threat for the morally grey/villainous ones, it could be more exciting since it could make everything more unpredictable, if the threat of the more villainous ones being found out could have actual consequences, or having the more heroic members to investigate and find out how much nonsense is going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    And dont get me started on the time skip where Scott and Jean are a couple again but we miss how they got there. So much to discuss regarding her death, his death, the affair etc how did they come to the arrangement or whatever it is they have now? Those are the character developments I want to see.
    I'm so done with time skips being used to have a bunch of nonsense happen offscreen without letting us actually see it lol.

    For whatever reason Hickman is fond of this, he did that during Secret Wars too.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 07-01-2022 at 08:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  13. #4768
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    I think the run in general will eventually go down as overhyped, not just in regards to Jean.
    Even people who claim that the Hickman era was the next Claremont or Morrison right now probably wont see it that way in the long run. The thing with Morrison and Claremont’s runs were not only they were mostly self contained but the story had a finite ending. Hickman’s swansong was Inferno which ultimately felt like the little spark you get when you light a match. And ultimately his run is just spoiled by too many cooks, he bit off more than he can chew. Even now when his ideas havent been retconned away they are changing—-omega. Or his oh resurrection will prevent deaths from being cheap(he’s SO smart) has made death even matter less and even more of a joke than it once was.

    All that for some mostly forgettable characterizations except for his favorite pet characters and the dumbing down of the xmen in not only taking in their mortal enemies but giving them seats of power. Plus destroying one of the long standing human allies (Moira).

    I dont think this run will be fondly remembered like Morrison or Claremont’s once it’s all over.
    I don't mind the deaths not lasting, tbh, though my mind might just be warped from seeing Jean come back 50 times.

    I can cop to not caring about Moira being retconned though I do think the X-Men should be trying to ultimately unite with humans, so I see how their main human friend being a lie doesn't sit right. As for having basically evil people on the council, it's ridiculous, but it does allow for council conflict, so I am of two minds on that.

    More than anything I love the setting of Krakoa and now Arakko. That'll suck if we time warp back to just sitting in a big house. Resurrection will probably go away soon but they should at least keep the island and the x-planet.

    Super agree that his characterization of anyone who isn't simply snarky or an aloof male or both is pretty terrible.

    On whether people will remember this era fondly, I am not sure because I think it comes down to how most people feel about Krakoa as a setting and resurrection. I like those two concepts and the idea of a council, but I don't know how they have gone over with the readership as a whole.

  14. #4769
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    The way duggan has written Jean in X-Men has been very bland and one dimensional and a lot of you eat it up and I don’t know why since it’s obvious he doesn’t understand Jean’s personality

  15. #4770
    Astonishing Member Exodus's Avatar
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    really?

    Dugann's Jean: Empathatic, powerful, and diplomatic X-Men leader with a temper? Or, understanding and patient but who won't take sh*t! (I'm looking at you, Beast) This is for me very coherent with her depiction in the last 60 years.

    How would you characterize Jean Grey?
    Last edited by Exodus; 07-02-2022 at 05:45 AM.

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