Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[johnnysv75]

Damn. This is a massive massive feat by Jean. X-Men Unlimited #13, December 1996. I just re-read it.
She flies through hyperspace while shielding herself with her TK. She helps Binary by encasing her in a wide psionic field (while still shielding herself from the cold vacuum of space with her TK), and when Binary is saved she holds them both in a TK bubble. In space.

I love Jean dearly, and I personally think she is capable of these feats, but this goes against how she was written back then (and to some extent how she is written now). I am not very familiar with the writer Jorge Gonzalez. Maybe he wasn’t too familiar with Jean’s abilities - and Jean having the codename Phoenix maybe confused him. (Sort of how Claremont went a bit crazy with Jean in Wolverine #125 when she had donned the Phoenix costume in UXM.)

True, Jean was written consistently more and more powerful after her marriage to Scott and after she accepted Rachel’s request and started calling herself Phoenix - but this is still almost a bit too powerful.

What do you guys think? Was the editor asleep or is this canon?

By the way:
In the late 90s/early 00s I wrote this short story, trying to make sense of why Jean seemed to be less powerful when she re-joined X-Men in 1991 than she was in X-Factor. Ironically it has Xavier and Moira talking about her.

http://www.alara.net/opeople/xbooks/morningcoffee.txt
(Lots of ”…” and lots of adverbs and adjectives. But in my defense most fan fiction was written like that back then. )

[Phoenixx9]

Jean can NEVER be too powerful for me!

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I ignore that argument. I love her soloing 4 Silver Surfers.

Don't get me wrong, I love an uber-powerful Jean too. I just know how other non-fans react to a powerful Jean.

That moment definitely beats her getting Mxplained to during a tough moment on an X-Men mission, doesn't it? Lol

[Mercury]

Jean can NEVER be too powerful for me!

Agreed. She has "infinite mental powers"--and that's canon since 1968. #SorryNotSorryBoutIt

[johnnysv75]

Jean can NEVER be too powerful for me!

Not sure if you replied to the ”taking on 4 silver surfers” or ”Jean flying through hyperspace”, but I do agree with you - in my mind Jean can never be too powerful. In my post about Jean flying through hyperspace I was just trying to make sense of her power level compared to how she was written in other titles back then. I guess an argument can be made that since the universe was threatened Jean was able to tap into a new level of her powers.

[Mercury]

Not sure if you replied to the ”taking on 4 silver surfers” or ”Jean flying through hyperspace”, but I do agree with you - in my mind Jean can never be too powerful. In my post about Jean flying through hyperspace I was just trying to make sense of her power level compared to how she was written in other titles back then. I guess an argument can be made that since the universe was threatened Jean was able to tap into a new level of her powers.

I forget in what issue Jean does this, but she is depicted flying through space in another instance, perhaps even before this issue.

[Grinning Soul]

I would have thought their psyches, to some degree, would be connected to their powers and power levels, though you do bring up a valid point.

I’d always assumed the major contribution to power levels was the information in their genes. But who knows?

I love that you took the time to read through it and test its veracity! Also, I want everyone to contribute their knowledge and ideas to the first post! I love the questions you posed below, by the way.

No problem. I won’t argue all the points, though, ‘cause I’m fine with whatever you choose to do. It’s your post after all. I’m really just trying to help. Feel free to ignore everything if you think it’s better.

I actually struggled with this! I was tempted to just list Sara as her sibling, but I was conflicted because I wanted to reference the murder of her entire family. Like you, I also considered listing them as second-degree relatives because Claremont was vague with the descriptions. However, in one caption, he makes it clear that Sara is Julia's older sister, and my idea sort of unraveled, lol. I'm still considering changing their designations, so your suggestion has only made me lean towards that more.

Frankly, it’s more likely that they were intended to be Jean’s siblings, but I just don’t like it. They never showed up before and then they just get killed? :(

As for the caption you mentioned, I don’t think it necessarily disproves it. "Brian Bonded with Jean. Julia with big sister Sara.". It could have been written to explain that Sara was Jean's big sister (not Julia’s). Considering that Sara was dead by then, it's possible some readers wouldn't know who that Sara was otherwise.

But I’ll leave it up to you.

Very good point, which, in fact, was one of which I had not thought. I suppose I can change it to "this resulted in a protracted [or extended] sojourn," no?

Yeah, when it comes to Marvel’s crazy timeline, it’s very rare that you can estimate the time certain stories or even periods took in the actual 616.

For instance, we know Jean stayed in the healing cocoon for at the very least 1 year (but probably close to 2), because we need to allow Nathan to be conceived and born! But the whole Utopia era might become compressed to 4 months at some point. :P

So unless it’s literally stated [EDITED: and non-compressible beyond-a-reasonable-point] (like the time Jean spent in the future raising Nathan - 12 years), it’s usually safer to avoid specific numbers. :)

That quote was taken from the Dark Phoenix Saga and, since she's become a being of pure after (see Venomized #5), I figured I'd use it to be faithful to the original storyline, show what she can do, and for dramatic effect. We need to discuss this more!

I would love it if we further discussed her history! Your knowledge and perspective are invaluable. :)

It depends on what you aim to achieve with the OP, right? I’m assuming most people who’d be interested in reading it are new readers/fans. So I suppose it’s better to write keeping them in mind.

Ideally, I think they can benefit more if they get as much information as possible but in the less convoluted way as possible (which is a *huge* task when it comes to Jean’s history), so perhaps certain things are better not to be mentioned.

Like I said, I think you’re doing a terrific job. But my mind is very goal-oriented and I just can’t help framing things in that perspective. Again: feel free to completely ignore any and all suggestions.

This is a good point, though I would point out that Jean and Bobby have both transcended their physical forms, which is apropos, considering they were the first to be classified Omega Level Mutants, aside from Rachel, of course.

Apropos of nothing: I can accept that Nathan’s virus might actually affect Cerebro’s reading of his power level, but the fact that Rachel didn’t make Hickman’s list is, my opinion, criminal. :P

[Grinning Soul]

Oh yes! Having Jean back was a great plus! :)

I have always tried to come up with a way to make the retcon and the original story merge, so that Jean’s potential isn’t overlooked. And to me, BobbysWorld’s post did so beautifully. (It’s on page 2 in this thread if anyone reading this hasn’t read their post and is curious.) If they did something like that in the comics I would probably cry from pure joy. :)

I’ve talked to many Jean’s fans throughout the years and it always amazes me how they work out this Phoenix mess in their heads. I’ve realised the best thing to do is just marvel at their brilliance and imagination and how plural we are. After all, we’ll never really be able to figure it all out anyway even if we managed to completely get rid of our ego and preferences in order to search for that one theory to unify them all. :)

Hi Grinning Soul, sorry, I freed space in my inbox :)

No problem. I saved the message I’d have sent. I’ll resend right away.

Agreed I think two good examples of an Omega´s power going wrong are Legion and Jaime Bradock, both of them showed mental instability when using their powers until they learned the skill to use them better, so yes I think this is why they need first to learn how it works and when not to push it if it´s costing them their well being.

Exactly.

But I think some powers are too dangerous to explore too often *even* if the mutant is mentally healthy, mature and knows how their powers work.

Take Kitty, for instance. She’s not an Omega, but imagine if she was…

Not to mention all the reality wrappers and, yes, the telepaths.

I think Jean is double-screwed in a way, because TK is no joke either at omega level. And I know she’s not stated as having it at that level in this era. But still… The implications are ridiculous.

There are old biograhies of marvel characters that used to include their powers, habilities, limitations and weaknesses with specific examples so I think there´s a possibility they have an actualized version of it for marvel writers, I guess the problem comes when the plot doens´t convince fans the reason why a character could not help or solve the problem at the moment. So while not telling all the information, I think fans could see a version of this.

Yeah, but it was all very vague. I’d like the writers to have better, more comprehensive resource available to them.

Yes that´s always annoying, like I get why they can´t have all characters being OP and I enjoy a lot the stories in which they have to use their skills and creative problem solving, especially if they used to be very powerful but that´s different to those times they have a powerful character be brought down by something they should be able to deal with just to have the writers faves stand out. That really bothers me too :D

Yep. It can be so bad it’s actually funny, but usually it’s just bad. :P

[johnnysv75]

I forget in what issue Jean does this, but she is depicted flying through space in another instance, perhaps even before this issue.

You may be thinking about X-Men #43, from 1995. Gorgeous art by Paul Smith. She flies safely in space but is also worried about running out of oxygen. And she is not flying through hyperspace. (Hyperspace in that issue of X-Men Unlimited could by explained by Shi’ar opening a … gate … or something like that for her.)

[Phoenixx9]

Agreed. She has "infinite mental powers"--and that's canon since 1968. #SorryNotSorryBoutIt

LOL! Perfect!

[WallStreeter]

You may be thinking about X-Men #43, from 1995. Gorgeous art by Paul Smith. She flies safely in space but is also worried about running out of oxygen. And she is not flying through hyperspace. (Hyperspace in that issue of X-Men Unlimited could by explained by Shi’ar opening a … gate … or something like that for her.)

Jean was just inconsistently powered in those days. There wasn’t a Shi’ar gate the X-Men unlimited. The same issue had Rogue fly in space too.

[Phoenixx9]

Not sure if you replied to the ”taking on 4 silver surfers” or ”Jean flying through hyperspace”, but I do agree with you - in my mind Jean can never be too powerful. In my post about Jean flying through hyperspace I was just trying to make sense of her power level compared to how she was written in other titles back then. I guess an argument can be made that since the universe was threatened Jean was able to tap into a new level of her powers.

Well, actually, to both!

Early 90's was when Jean was not portrayed well, but I believe by 96 onward she was shown more powerful. But in any case, we know Jean is Uber-powerful whether shown in that moment or not.

[johnnysv75]

Jean was just inconsistently powered in those days. There wasn’t a Shi’ar gate the X-Men unlimited. The same issue had Rogue fly in space too.

I know there wasn’t a gate. I was going for my No-Prize. (I think that is what they were called.)
Rogue flying in space maybe could be explained by her absorbing Carol’s abilities? (I don’t know the full extent of Carol’s abilities.)

Well, actually, to both!

Early 90's was when Jean was not portrayed well, but I believe by 96 onward she was shown more powerful. But in any case, we know Jean is Uber-powerful whether shown in that moment or not.

Jean is a goddess. And yes, I love Jean in the second half of the 90s. Several wonderful stories and moments with her.

(It is way past midnight here in Sweden. This Jean fan needs his beauty sleep. Hopefully Inferno #4 is available on the Marvel app when I wake up tomorrow.)

[andreikes]

You may be thinking about X-Men #43, from 1995. Gorgeous art by Paul Smith. She flies safely in space but is also worried about running out of oxygen. And she is not flying through hyperspace. (Hyperspace in that issue of X-Men Unlimited could by explained by Shi’ar opening a … gate … or something like that for her.)

In New X-Men she says she can't do that yet, fly through space... (before she dies)

[Phoenixx9]

Jean is a goddess. And yes, I love Jean in the second half of the 90s. Several wonderful stories and moments with her.

(It is way past midnight here in Sweden. This Jean fan needs his beauty sleep. Hopefully Inferno #4 is available on the Marvel app when I wake up tomorrow.)

Jean is indeed!

Have a good sleep.